1948/49 Leaf Satchel Paige

[samosa4u]

I have a few questions about this card:

1) How do we know for certain that it's a SP? Has anyone ever seen an uncut sheet before?

2) I have a book, that's about twenty years old, and while the author calls the Jackie Robinson and Stan Musial cards rookies, he does not label this Paige card as such. Today, everybody is calling it a rookie. Is this card really a rookie? He was about 42-years-old when it was issued and I'm pretty sure he must have had cards made of his prior to that.

3) I think the image that was used in the making of this card was a poor choice. His eyes are closed! How stupid is that? Are there any other players in this set with their eyes closed?

[Griffins]

1. We've seen an uncut sheet of the common series, this isn't on it. It's considerably scarcer than any of the 49 in the common series.
2. Probably just an oversight. All evidence points to this set being issued in '49, the short print series later than the common series. But it still most probably predates the high number '49 Bowman, his only other card before '53 Topps.
3. More likely he was looking down or blinking. Leaf isn't known for their production value on this set.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I have a few questions about this card:

1) How do we know for certain that it's a SP? Has anyone ever seen an uncut sheet before?

2) I have a book, that's about twenty years old, and while the author calls the Jackie Robinson and Stan Musial cards rookies, he does not label this Paige card as such. Today, everybody is calling it a rookie. Is this card really a rookie? He was about 42-years-old when it was issued and I'm pretty sure he must have had cards made of his prior to that.

3) I think the image that was used in the making of this card was a poor choice. His eyes are closed! How stupid is that? Are there any other players in this set with their eyes closed?

First--beautiful card (relative to the issue).
Yes, there are sheets that suggest the Paige--along with quite a few others--were printed less frequently. I believe it was Dr. James Beckett that first passed this info along many, many years ago and the hobby has gone with it.

Rookie? I figure it depends on how you define it. As for MLB, he was, indeed, a rookie at age 42. More peculiar is the notion some have of, say, Stan Musial's '48 Bowman as a "rookie". I suppose the sheer lack of cards prior creates the rookie notion for quite a few 40's debuts. There are likely some obscure regional issues that feature Satchel as a Mexican Leaguer or even Negro Leaguer but the Leaf is the first card of him produced on any measurable scale...and he WAS a rookie.

Finally, the image is likely what was available. "Choice" would indicate they had a library of images to choose from. A portrait like the Bowman would have been great but, then, the production still sucked so it wouldn't have mattered too much.

Regardless of any of it--you have a spectacular and desirable card (and piece of history) there!!! Congratulations!!!

[paul]

I have never heard of a Negro League or Latin American league card of Paige. So, his 1949s are his earliest cards. Don't forget about the 1949 Exhibit. Since his Leaf and Bowman cards were issued late in the season, the Exhibit might be the earliest.

[samosa4u]

This card is not mine. I just put it up to make this thread look more attractive.

And holy crap, I did not pay any attention to the back of the card! It says 1949! Why the hell is PSA labeling these cards as a 1948 issue? That's effed up!

I'm surprised he doesn't have a Negro League or Latin American card considering how popular he was. I found this Oscar Charleston card online and assumed that Paige had one too:



Anyways, if these cards were printed during the same year as the Bowmans, then I might just collect the Bowmans instead. This is because 1) the Robinson and Paige cards look more attractive to me than their Leaf cards 2) they cost way less and 3) Bowman is a bigger name than Leaf. I still have to research both sets more before making my decision. And I have to try to track down that article Zanidakis wrote about the Leaf cards (from Old Cardboard Magazine).

[rats60]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I have a few questions about this card:

1) How do we know for certain that it's a SP? Has anyone ever seen an uncut sheet before?

There also was a find of these that were all short printed 2nd series cards. It is pretty well documented that there were two series printed with at least one more planned. The first had a normal print run, but the second was printed in lesser quantities and future series never made.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Phil68

First--beautiful card (relative to the issue).
Yes, there are sheets that suggest the Paige--along with quite a few others--were printed less frequently. I believe it was Dr. James Beckett that first passed this info along many, many years ago and the hobby has gone with it.

I it was Beckett, it was before I think 1978. I'd have to dig out the old sports collectors bible and the 78 sport Americana which was a precursor to Beckett.

I vaguely recall one of the scanned newsletters from back then saying a new series had been found, but I'm not positive on that.

[tedzan]

I will save you the SEARCH effort, check-out this thread..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=1949+LEAF





Here is a photo of the 1st Series complete sheet. Obviously, Paige is NOT on it.







FYI
For the umpteenth time....the 1st Series of this LEAF set was printed and issued in the Spring of 1949.
The 2nd Series (SP) was issued in the Summer of 1949.


"Fake-News" PSA is mis-leading the hobby with their "1948" date ! !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Griffins

1. We've seen an uncut sheet of the common series, this isn't on it. It's considerably scarcer than any of the 49 in the common series.
2. Probably just an oversight. All evidence points to this set being issued in '49, the short print series later than the common series. But it still most probably predates the high number '49 Bowman, his only other card before '53 Topps.
3. More likely he was looking down or blinking. Leaf isn't known for their production value on this set.

Anthony is precisely correct. The 1949 LEAF Paige is his first card depicting him with a Major League uniform. The 1949 BOWMAN card of "Satch" was issued in the Fall of 1949.
I can personally vouch for this, as I clearly recall the 1949 BOWMAN Hi #s were available when school had started. We were opening the BOWMAN red-white-blue 5-cent packs
with the Hi# cards in September-October.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[samosa4u]

Thanks for your posts, Ted. It looks like those guys running Leaf Gum Co. were a bunch of sneaky b*stards! Look at the first series uncut sheet: 31, 106, 11, 136, 59, etc. The numbers are all over the place!

It's also crazy that all the cards from the second series are short-prints. And to make things even more confusing, there are some cards from this second series, like the Paige, which are even more difficult to find! What does that make the Paige then, by the way? A SP or a SSP (super short print?) Yes, I just thought of that one right now, but it sounds pretty cool, right?

I was really thinking of the Bowmans, but now I am not sure if I want to do that. The Leafs are going to be more challenging, but at the same time fun. And there are different color variations as well, and I find this part interesting too. It's definitely going to be a tough decision! Send out that article of yours whenever you can, Ted, and I gotta' make sure I research all of this properly so I don't end up with any regrets!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Thanks for your posts, Ted. It looks like those guys running Leaf Gum Co. were a bunch of sneaky.....

It's also crazy that all the cards from the second series are short-prints. And to make things even more confusing, there are some cards from this second series, like the Paige, which are even more difficult to find!s pretty cool, right?

1st....LEAF was not the first Gum Co. to skip-number their cards. GOUDEY, in 1933, played the same game by not printing 22 Lo # cards in their set until the last 2 sheets.

2nd....The 2nd Series (49 cards) was issued sometime in the Summer of 1949. This series of cards were not only Short-Printed, but were also regionally "short-distributed".
That is to say these cards were only issued in the Boston area, Michigan, Ohio, Illinois (and perhaps St Louis).

In 1989, Alan Rosen acquired four boxes (24-count) of LEAF unopened waxpacks. This find was an original collection from Michigan. All 576 cards were 2nd Series subjects.
Forty eight of these subjects averaged about 12 cards each, representing a fairly good random distribution. However there were only 3 cards of Satchell Paige in this group
of 576 cards.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[steve B]

The low numbers are lots of fun, there's at least 3 distinct press runs if not 5-6.
And usually the differences aren't exactly small.

[leaflover]

I am truly a "Leaflover"

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by leaflover

I am truly a "Leaflover"

Hey Mike

I really love to see your 1949 "beauties"....you probably have the best looking set in the hobby.

On display here are 5 members of the Hall of Fame (Cleveland has the most HOFers in this set)

MVP in 1948…..awarded Dec 1948






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ksfarmboy]

Ted are all of those from your childhood collection?

[tedzan]

Hi Clint

Only Lou Boudreau and Joe Gordon.

I grew up in NJ. Only the 1st series cards were available.

Paige, Feller, and Doby were issued with the 2nd series cards
which were distributed only in the Boston area, Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ksfarmboy]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Clint

Only Lou Boudreau and Joe Gordon.

I grew up in NJ. Only the 1st series cards were available.

Paige, Feller, and Doby were issued with the 2nd series cards
which were distributed only in the Boston area, Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

When did you realize they had a second series? I bet as a collector finding out it would be a holy sh*t moment.

[brian1961]

I recall reading in a hobby pub from the early 70s about a major collector, Dick Reuss. He wrote many articles for the hobby. Anyway, one of Dick's discoveries occurred some time in the 60s. He was helping a friend move, and the friend had some baseball cards. Dick asked if he could have a look at them. Among the cards was a Leaf Bob Feller, of which Dick had never known of before. Dick was from the Detroit area of Michigan, so from the discussion it makes sense his friend would have gotten that high number as a kid.

Dick wrote up his finding for the hobby. As I remember, his column was titled, "Rolling With Reuss". Dick was a swell guy, and very helpful and encouraging to young collectors as I in those days. He is sorely missed.

--- Brian Powell

[samosa4u]

Doby did not look black at all! He looked more like a southeast Asian.

Anyways, here is the picture Leaf used to make his card:

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brian1961

I recall reading in a hobby pub from the early 70s about a major collector, Dick Reuss. He wrote many articles for the hobby. Anyway, one of Dick's discoveries occurred some time in the 60s. He was helping a friend move, and the friend had some baseball cards. Dick asked if he could have a look at them. Among the cards was a Leaf Bob Feller, of which Dick had never known of before. Dick was from the Detroit area of Michigan, so from the discussion it makes sense his friend would have gotten that high number as a kid.

Dick wrote up his finding for the hobby. As I remember, his column was titled, "Rolling With Reuss". Dick was a swell guy, and very helpful and encouraging to young collectors as I in those days. He is sorely missed.

--- Brian Powell

Brian

What are you suggesting with your anecdotal example..... "Among the cards was a Leaf Bob Feller, of which Dick had never known of before"..... Are you implying here that
the 2nd series of these cards were never distributed in Michigan ?

Well, I can report of at least 4 examples which support the fact that this set's 2nd series cards were marketed in Michigan.....

(1) Hobby veteran Frank Nagy of Michigan supplied me with 2nd series cards (to complete my set) which he said were found in original collections in Michigan.

(2) Rick Starks (Erie, PA dealer) back in the 1970's - 1980's provided me 2nd series cards (including my Satchell Paige card). Rick acquired these cards in Michigan and Ohio.

(3) Alan Rosen's 576-card (unopened wax-packs) find of 2nd series 1949 LEAF cards in 1989 were originally from Michigan.

(4) At the Willow Grove Show (in the 1980's) there was a dealer from Michigan (can't recall his name) that would always bring a fair number of 2nd series LEAF's to the show.
He had them priced at $25 per common. And, by Friday night these cards were all sold.







TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brian1961]

No, Ted, nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary. I interpreted the article as Dick Reuss introduced the Leaf Bob Feller to the hobby, through his discovery of the card in his friend's collection where said friend resided in Michigan.

---Brian Powell

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In 1989, Alan Rosen acquired 4 wax-pack boxes (24-count) each.
The cards in this find were all 2nd Series totaling 576. Forty-eight subjects averaged 12 cards each, representing a pretty good random distribution. However there were only
3 cards of Satchell Paige in this group of 576 cards.

I was talking to a big US card dealer over the phone last night and he thinks that these packs were searched. He doesn't think the Paige card is rarer than any of the other cards in the second SP series. He told me whenever he purchased a collection of 49' Leafs from someone, the Paige card was always in there.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brian1961

No, Ted, nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary. I interpreted the article as Dick Reuss introduced the Leaf Bob Feller to the hobby, through his discovery of the card in his friend's collection where said friend resided in Michigan.

---Brian Powell

Sorry, Brian.....I think I mis-interpreted what you said in post #18.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I was talking to a big US card dealer over the phone last night and he thinks that these packs were searched. He doesn't think the Paige card is rarer than any of the other cards in the second SP series. He told me whenever he purchased a collection of 49' Leafs from someone, the Paige card was always in there.

I don't know who you were talking with, and where does he get his information from ?

In 1989, when Alan Rosen discovered this 1949 LEAF find, I got a chance to see these cards. And, there were only three Paige cards in this collection of 576 cards.
While the other 48 subjects ranged from 10 - 13 cards each.

Incidentally, I met Alan Rosen in 1981 (we were set-up at adjacent tables at a New Jersey BB card show), and we were close friends all the years since.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[samosa4u]

I can't post his name on an open forum without his permission. I will say this: for the past thirty years he has been buying up collections across the country (and selling them for big bucks!) So he must know what he's talking about.

Anyhow, price-wise this Paige card is almost on the same level as the 52' Topps Mantle. It's absolutely insane.

It's a good thing that the Jackie Robinson card is in the first series. It's more affordable and more people can enjoy it.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Anyhow, price-wise this Paige card is almost on the same level as the 52' Topps Mantle. It's absolutely insane.

I'll take your word for the comparison to Mantle, but I can attest to the extraordinary scarcity of 49Leaf Paiges and the frantic price action when one surfaces.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I can't post his name on an open forum without his permission. I will say this: for the past thirty years he has been buying up collections across the country (and selling them for big bucks!) So he must know what he's talking about.

Well what do you know....an anonymous source....this sounds like "fake news" !

So, Mr. Anonymous is a big-time dealer, who says: "whenever he purchased a collection of of 49' Leafs from someone, the Paige card was always in there."
Of course Paige would most likely be in a sizeable collection of 1949 LEAF cards. Besides Babe Ruth, Paige was/is the most popular subject in this set.

So, for starters the real question is.....how many 1949 LEAF collections did this "Mr. Anonymous" purchase ? ?

OK, Alan Rosen displayed these 1949 LEAF cards from his find at the Willow Grove Show in 1989. Many of us old-timers saw them at this show back then.
Rosen had opened the wax-packs from 2 of the 4 (24-count) boxes which yielded 288 cards. There was NOT a single Paige card in that group. He sold the
other two boxes of unopened 1949 LEAF wax-packs to Jim Copeland. Upon opening those 48 waxpacks, Jim found only three Paige cards.

That's how the entire story goes, guys. The Paige card was most likely printed in the same quantities as the other 48 cards on the 49-card sheet; however,
only a few of these Paige cards were inserted into the LEAF wax-packs. For whatever reasons.


Now, here we have a character, who asks you for information. You provide the information. And what in effect is his response....."your full of crap, because
a Mr. Anonymous says otherwise."

Well, I'm NOT going to continue this "horse-crap"any longer.....END OF DISCUSSION ! !
I no longer will respond to any of his requests, questions, or remarks.


T-Rex Ted
.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Well what do you know....an anonymous source....this sounds like "fake news" !

So, Mr. Anonymous is a big-time dealer, who says: "whenever he purchased a collection of of 49' Leafs from someone, the Paige card was always in there."
Of course Paige would most likely be in a sizeable collection of 1949 LEAF cards. Besides Babe Ruth, Paige was/is the most popular subject in this set.

So, for starters the real question is.....how many 1949 LEAF collections did this "Mr. Anonymous" purchase ? ?

OK, Alan Rosen displayed these 1949 LEAF cards from his find at the Willow Grove Show in 1989. Many of us old-timers saw them at this show back then.
Rosen had opened the wax-packs from 2 of the 4 (24-count) boxes which yielded 288 cards. There was NOT a single Paige card in that group. He sold the
other two boxes of unopened 1949 LEAF wax-packs to Jim Copeland. Upon opening those 48 waxpacks, Jim found only three Paige cards.

That's how the entire story goes, guys. The Paige card was most likely printed in the same quantities as the other 48 cards on the 49-card sheet; however,
only a few of these Paige cards were inserted into the LEAF wax-packs. For whatever reasons.


Now, here we have a character, who asks you for information. You provide the information. And what in effect is his response....."your full of crap, because
a Mr. Anonymous says otherwise."

Well, I'm NOT going to continue this "horse-crap"any longer.....END OF DISCUSSION ! !
I no longer will respond to any of his requests, questions, or remarks.


T-Rex Ted
.

Yowsers!!! I wasn't expecting that one at all!

You need to calm down, sir. You are overreacting here.

The eight-page article you sent me was a fantastic read. It taught me so many things that I didn't previously know and I thank you for that.

Now I want to take a direct quote from your article:

In 1989, a "find" in Michigan of four unopened 24-count boxes of second series Leaf cards yielded about a dozen cards of just about every player. However, there were only three cards of Satchel Paige from a total population of 576 cards. Is this find representative and is the Paige card that scarce? No one really knows. (pg 36, T. Zanidakis, Old Cardboard, Issue #9, Fall 2006).

Look what you did here. You are asking the reader a question. You are encouraging the reader to go out there and to try to find out on his own. This is what good authors do.

Oh, and FYI, I just finished reading David Hornish's Topps Chewing Gum book. I actually ordered a hard copy, so that way I could write down notes as I read along. Now I got a ton of questions I want to ask him, and yes, I will challenge him too, but there is nothing wrong with that. That's what makes all of this fun, right?

Thank you again for your article

[GeoPoto]

All this loud talking is scaring the fish. I would bet Ted knows what he is talking about. We need more sellers and fewer buyers no matter what the actual pop is. Meanwhile, the card is very difficult to find and obtain, you are correct about that.

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