Clemente opinion please

[theshleps]

bob.jpg
Greatly appreciate opinions here

[theshleps]

anyone?

[tazdmb]

I am not a TPA, but I think it is Good.

[rand1com]

Hard to tell due to the autograph contrast to the print on the card. I would lean not authentic based on what I can see but I am certainly not certain. I'm sure other Clemente experts will eventually chime in.

[71buc]

Im not an expert and it’s hard to say definitively that is authentic or otherwise. I learned a couple of painful lessons purchasing Clemente autographs. Now I have one authentic Clemente and three authentic Phil Dorseys. For me the telltale sign of a Dorsey is his common use of what looks like a pair large 6s at the end of his Roberto signature. Last month a local card shop asked me to look at three Clemente’s they were consigning. I said two were Dorseys and one was real. JSA later agreed with me. I’m hoping to purchase the real one.

Despite this knowledge I recently asked for feedback here on a Clemente here as well. The feedback I received confirmed my suspicion. I know how disappointed I was when I learned about my Phil Dorseys I hope your Clemente is a real one. Good luck!

[71buc]

As I previously stated I’m certainly not an expert on Roberto Clemente autographs. However, people seeking opinions on the authenticity of Clemente autographs in their collections or examples they are considering purchasing appear here. Generally they receive brief responses in the affirmative or negative without much information on the basis for that opinion. People will also occasionally share examples that have passed authentication.

I thought I would try something different in hopes of not looking too ignorant while attempting to further the conversation. It would be great if a person who is an expert in Clemente autographs would contribute to the discussion I’m hoping to generate.

Clemente’s autograph is at times complex, ornate and artistic. However, I seldom see attractive examples on trading cards. I assume this is because he was likely standing and holding the card when he signed at games. Your card is a great example of that theory. The more attractive examples appear on photos and team issued cards used for Sunday autograph game day events at Three Rivers. I imagine he was seated and had a surface to sign the item on. The same could be said for legal documents and checks that bear his signature. I have no proof of that it’s just an opinion.

I think it’s just as important to have exemplars of Phil Dorsey’s Clemente autographs as it is to have authentic examples of Clemente autographs. Dorseys frequently have the large 6s I previously alluded to and the angle of his signatures seem to have a more dramatic angle than authentic Clementes . I’m sure there are many other differences but those are the two identifiers that tend to make me question the authenticity of Clemente autographs.

Here are four bad Clementes and a picture of Roberto and Phil together. The two black and white portrait photos failed JSA recently. I suspect they are Dorseys. The first color example is from a Roberto Clemente Night program. I think it’s a Dorsey as well. The last one (my 3000 hit poster) is definitely a Phil Dorsey. I can say that because it originated from his estate.

Does anyone else have opinions or observations? If so I’d love to read them. Thanks for indulging me.

[scmavl]

Thanks for that great info, Mike. Clemente is an auto I've always had zero confidence on self-authenticating, so that was enlightening.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I also believe the lack of comments on Clemente are because people do not feel comfortable with him in general therefore don’t add anything. I think open discussion is great because there are WAY too many people that are afraid to be wrong. Autographs are something where we have all realized at some point that we are wrong and / or made a mistake. I wish there were more people contributing knowledge and or open discussion like you are. More info the better

[theshleps]

Great discussion, thanks

[71buc]

I too got burned a couple of times. When I started helping out at the Clemente Museum I learned that one of my prized Clemente autographs was actually a Dorsey. I was very disappointed to say the least.

My experience there has given me access to MANY items and legal documents actually signed by Roberto. I also was fortunate enough to discuss the relative differences and attributes of a Dorsey versus an authentic Clemente with people who are experts in my opinion. That’s where I learned about those sixes and the difference in the angular slant of Dorsey. Obviously it’s not a full proof method of differentiating the two signatures. However, once that was pointed out to me those two elements of Dorsey autographs immediately stand out when I look at Dorsey Clemente autographs.

[Bpm0014]

Great discussion

[theshleps]

any other opinions on this one? It is in my pile of suspect autographs but I lean towards good.

[philo98]

Originally Posted by theshleps

any other opinions on this one? It is in my pile of suspect autographs but I lean towards good.

His son lives next door. The next time he is walking the dog, I can ask if he is able to recognize his Dads signature or a Dorsey.

[theshleps]

thanks Ryan

[5-Tool Player]

tough call here, ink and card colors don't give much help

[Fuddjcal]

while I don't know dick about Clemente's autograph, I believe I've read somewhere about the sharp angle (going up up up to the right) of the Tommy Dorsey ghost signed, as well as the double 66's.

Notice how all the Dorsey's go up up up to the right. The card doesn't...HMMMMM, could it be real? If you could see it through the card colors you might actually tell,

[Fluterofd]

I certainly don't consider myself an expert on Clemente signatures, but I can offer these examples that I obtained personally. His signature seems to vary according to the space available and like most of us, his mood. See what you think?

[Fluterofd]

Clemente

[Fluterofd]

1964 Topps Giant Clemente

[Fluterofd]

1963 Topps Clemente

[clydepepper]

How about this one?


RC Auto.jpg

[Mark]

Here is another good one.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Fluterofd

1964 Topps Giant Clemente

Oh man, that ‘64 Giant is a beauty and a white whale for those collecting that signed set.