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  #51  
Old 07-08-2013, 11:52 AM
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Think whatever you like Travis...I no longer trust you, and I doubt I'm alone.
+1. It baffles me why Nash, whose misdeeds are of the intentional and malicious sort and are well documented, gets a free pass from Travis while the AHs and TPGs, who are at worst incompetent, are subjects of such shrill, vindictive screeds. The utter glee he shows in finding a purported TPG or AH mistake--out of the tens of thousands of authentications and listings every year--make it sound like he has a vendetta against all of them. Consequently, I too do not trust much of what he says.
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 07-08-2013 at 11:54 AM.
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  #52  
Old 07-08-2013, 01:32 PM
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+1. It baffles me why Nash, whose misdeeds are of the intentional and malicious sort and are well documented, gets a free pass from Travis while the AHs and TPGs, who are at worst incompetent, are subjects of such shrill, vindictive screeds. The utter glee he shows in finding a purported TPG or AH mistake--out of the tens of thousands of authentications and listings every year--make it sound like he has a vendetta against all of them. Consequently, I too do not trust much of what he says.
+2. a big fat idiot to be sure, IMHO
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  #53  
Old 07-08-2013, 02:54 PM
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+1. It baffles me why Nash, whose misdeeds are of the intentional and malicious sort and are well documented, gets a free pass from Travis while the AHs and TPGs, who are at worst incompetent, are subjects of such shrill, vindictive screeds. The utter glee he shows in finding a purported TPG or AH mistake--out of the tens of thousands of authentications and listings every year--make it sound like he has a vendetta against all of them. Consequently, I too do not trust much of what he says.


psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.
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  #54  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:05 PM
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no its not because no one cares, otherwise you would be talking about nash, not me and tpa's.

so where is the nash talk? there is none!

fake!

why arent you talking about nash and the case? very confusing..oh, i know why, because it's all a front.

Last edited by travrosty; 07-08-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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  #55  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:09 PM
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psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.
Are you chalking up Nash's dirty deeds to "human error"?
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  #56  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:10 PM
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+2. a big fat idiot to be sure, IMHO
chuck tapia,

so when both psa and jsa issue a full loa for a thomas sayers signed piece of paper from the 1860's, then get caught by the real experts for having NO exemplars, then they pull the loa's from heritage. How is that NOT fraud?

can you answer that? when heritage learned of the loa's being pulled because of no exemplars, why didnt they fire psa and jsa?

answer: rhymes with honey.
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  #57  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:14 PM
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This thread is about Peter Nash, why do you keep deflecting to PSA and JSA?
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  #58  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:20 PM
mighty bombjack mighty bombjack is offline
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Back on topic:

This particular complaint seems to revolve around the charge that Nash claimed material ownership of an item (or a collection) that he did not in fact own (and thereby illegally profited from that claim).

I see that the "White Betsy" Cooperstown forger blog is no longer up and running. What, if anything, can anyone tell me about that? In particular, who wrote that blog, and is there proof that Nash is indeed the aforementioned forger? I know that peole may need to tread carefully here.

I have read about Nash's legal troubles akin to this one, but I wanna know what stuff he's faked.
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  #59  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:22 PM
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psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.


I don't agree with this. Every issue I have had with PSA (and I have had many), they have gone above and beyond to correct their mistake. With that said, I would rather conduct business with PSA than Peter Nash.
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  #60  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:28 PM
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I don't agree with this. Every issue I have had with PSA (and I have had many), they have gone above and beyond to correct their mistake. With that said, I would rather conduct business with PSA than Peter Nash.


how did they correct the ty cobb laser print, by admitting it? nope.

they know that the bob fitzsimmons wife signed exemplar is still up on psaautographfacts and do they correct it by taking it down? nope, the cap anson exemplar, do they take it down when they know its not real? nope.

please deal with reality. are grad and spence experts? you decide, they give out loa's with out exemplars to compare the signature to. some experts.



Is nash a third party authenticator? i didnt see where he was a third party authenticator.

bottom line, if nash were only talking about Coaches corner, morales or ted taylor, not only would it be NO BIG DEAL, but the people here would be joining in. it's just because he shows the bonehead authentications by the buddies of this site do people get mad. That's it. no one would care if it were coaches corner/morales mistakes on HOS.
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  #61  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:34 PM
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Is nash a third party authenticator? i didnt see where he was a third party authenticator.

bottom line, if nash were only talking about Coaches corner, morales or ted taylor, not only would it be NO BIG DEAL, but the people here would be joining in. it's just because he shows the bonehead authentications by the buddies of this site do people get mad. That's it. no one would care if it were coaches corner/morales mistakes on HOS.
Clearly the majority of the people who post to this forum recognize that PSA and JSA make mistakes...most of us also realize that they don't own up to most of those mistakes. Nothing you have posted though points to outright fraudulent activity...it just points out ineptitude. Can you say the same for your newest, bestest buddy Peter Nash?
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  #62  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:41 PM
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you are all against showing the mistakes and the sheer lunacy of these certs that are being issued because...

you are afraid, afraid that there is nothing to take its place, a void is worse than what we have now. so you accept less than the best, because it is the lesser of two anvils.

you are also mad because almost everyone owns many, many certs by the companies, and when the day of reckoning comes and the certs go the way of gai and line birdcages, then what. wave bye bye to all that money spent on the certs.

so you blame others, you blame the messenger. doesnt matter if the pope ran hauls of abc, xyz, you would find fault with him, because the message doesnt fit your financial concerns.
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  #63  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:46 PM
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you are all against showing the mistakes and the sheer lunacy of these certs that are being issued because...

you are afraid, afraid that there is nothing to take its place, a void is worse than what we have now. so you accept less than the best, because it is the lesser of two anvils.

you are also mad because almost everyone owns many, many certs by the companies, and when the day of reckoning comes and the certs go the way of gai and line birdcages, then what. wave bye bye to all that money spent on the certs.

so you blame others, you blame the messenger. doesnt matter if the pope ran hauls of abc, xyz, you would find fault with him, because the message doesnt fit your financial concerns.
BS...I don't own a single autograph certed by JSA or PSA or any abc TPA. Not one single autograph. I wouldn't care if all the TPA's ceased to exist this very moment, it wouldn't affect me one bit. I am fascinated with your selective white knighthood though.
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  #64  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:52 PM
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you know what is really interesting, that i get pm's and emails, from some people on this board that agree with me wholeheartedly, some people you would know, and they say to keep going, they are behind the effort. but due to the exposure of getting slammed from people like you, they must remain anonymous.

that says volumes. who wants to take these slings and arrows from people who only want to prop up the status quo? the status quo is falling down on its own without any help. it is just a matter of time, so to keep the same old same old gravy train going is not what is in the cards. people will demand more from their third party authenticators and auction houses will have had enough too, along with the authorities.

when that day comes i will ask you to come onto a thread and defend the tpa's and we will see who shows up. no one will show up.

and like i have said all along, i am not against the idea of third party authenticators, when they take the time to do it right, dont cut corners, and have the experience to actually authenticate autographs. that is not the problem. what i have a problem with is the way it is being done now, without any responsibility, accountability, transparency, auditing function. The companies should show exemplars of every authentication they ever do when asked by the consumer. right now, none of them do that. they thumb their nose at the consumer, they couldnt care less except for the check has to go through.

Imagine a large firm not being audited, not being inspected or held up to the standards that the company sets for itself. no one is going into these companies and seeing if they are practicing what they say on the loa's or on the website.

in the autograph authentication world, the honor system stinks.

Last edited by travrosty; 07-08-2013 at 03:55 PM.
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  #65  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:00 PM
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when that day comes i will ask you to come onto a thread and defend the tpa's and we will see who shows up. no one will show up.
Right, we will just keep on hobbying as we are now. When these TPAs go away (not if, but when) no one will defend them. No one is really defending them now, except to say that they fill a market niche, and that PSA and JSA happen to be doing it better than anyone else on a large scale. That means that when I see their cert, I consider the auto, just as I do a raw one. They keep slipping, making more mistakes and ignoring the glaring problems, which is why they will eventually fail. Someone may fill the void. They may not. No big deal either way, really.



Back on topic, does anyone have any info about the White Betsy blog?
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  #66  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:05 PM
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you know what is really interesting, that i get pm's and emails, from some people on this board that agree with me wholeheartedly, some people you would know, and they say to keep going, they are behind the effort. but due to the exposure of getting slammed from people like you, they must remain anonymous.
Travis, *I* am urging you to keep going, but I'm pretty sure you could do it without the likes of Peter Nash and the anonymous scumbags at autographblahblahblah.com. Why you want to align yourself with them is fascinating to me considering you're trying to clean up the hobby. The fact that you won't address this issue at all is also fascinating. They have naked pictures of you or something?
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  #67  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:10 PM
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now i will go and do some stuff outside of the computer realm and you guys can do what the thread suggests, talk about nash, let's see how much nash talk you have in you, it should go on for pages, right? no more me, just nash, let's go ,

oh, you will all move along now, great. it was a fake all along, just like all these threads that get started when the call goes out behind the scenes to start a thread like this.

mission accomplished people, the flash mob can all do something else now.

Last edited by travrosty; 07-08-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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  #68  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:17 PM
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oh, you will all move along now, great. it was a fake all along, just like all these threads that get started when the call goes out behind the scenes to start a thread like this.

mission accomplished people, the flash mob can all do something else now.
Delusional AND Paranoid.
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  #69  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:19 PM
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Do they make Immodium for diarrhea of the mouth?
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  #70  
Old 07-08-2013, 05:21 PM
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There is one problem with all of this. Is what Nash has to say is true or is it B.S. I am not defending anyone. I just asking a question. Good guy or bad guy is what he is saying helping
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  #71  
Old 07-08-2013, 06:02 PM
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Imagine a large firm not being audited, not being inspected or held up to the standards that the company sets for itself. no one is going into these companies and seeing if they are practicing what they say on the loa's or on the website.
OK, I will give you this, Travis -- this is a legitimate gripe. I could only imagine what would happen if a company like PSA had to be ISO certified. The ISO auditors would come in there and tear that place a new you-know-what.

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  #72  
Old 07-08-2013, 06:38 PM
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There is one problem with all of this. Is what Nash has to say is true or is it B.S. I am not defending anyone. I just asking a question. Good guy or bad guy is what he is saying helping
He's a snake, why should we believe him? Maybe if he did the honorable thing and came clean, made restitution, et cetera, but as long as he's running from that it's just an agenda and not to be taken seriously.
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  #73  
Old 07-08-2013, 07:29 PM
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Everyone in this hobby gets criticized or ripped at one time or another, but according to Travis, Peter Nash is off-limits.

Tell us, Travis, why is Peter Nash off-limits?

If Leon posted this Peter Nash thread next week, would you still call it a misdirection thread?

When would be a good time to post a Peter Nash thread, Travis? Next year? Ten years from now?

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 07-08-2013 at 07:29 PM.
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  #74  
Old 07-08-2013, 07:35 PM
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Everyone in this hobby gets criticized or ripped at one time or another, but according to Travis, Peter Nash is off-limits.

Tell us, Travis, why is Peter Nash off-limits?

If Leon posted this Peter Nash thread next week, would you still call it a misdirection thread?

When would be a good time to post a Peter Nash thread, Travis? Next year? Ten years from now?
Good luck with this...he didn't answer a single question I posed about his association with Nash.

Notice too that Nash's articles are now being posted to that anonymous coward site that is infatuated with you. Things that make you go hmmm?
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  #75  
Old 07-08-2013, 07:36 PM
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Good luck with this...he didn't answer a single question I posed about his association with Nash.

Notice too that Nash's articles are now being posted to that anonymous coward site that is infatuated with you. Things that make you go hmmm?
Dan, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I just noticed the latest HOS material published by the cowards.
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  #76  
Old 07-08-2013, 07:46 PM
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I personally don't care who or what the source is. If it is true, it is true. Nothing can take away from that.
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  #77  
Old 07-08-2013, 07:57 PM
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If Nash is telling the truth no matter who or what he is that is what is important. If your saying you dont belive him because of who he is that is your problem.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" just my opinion.

Last edited by shelly; 07-08-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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  #78  
Old 07-08-2013, 08:13 PM
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If Nash is telling the truth no matter who or what he is that is what is important. If your saying you dont belive him because of who he is that is your problem.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" just my opinion.
Sure, some of the stuff is obvious like his posts about autographs being certed that are actually pre-printed on the photo...no problem. He finds items that are previously stolen from the HOF or NYPL, no problem....He posts a lot of other stuff that is clearly agenda ridden. He owes a ton of cash to REA, why should I believe a single word he says about Rob Lifson? He has continued to say stuff about the FBI that I seriously doubt.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:23 PM
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Sure, some of the stuff is obvious like his posts about autographs being certed that are actually pre-printed on the photo...no problem. He finds items that are previously stolen from the HOF or NYPL, no problem....He posts a lot of other stuff that is clearly agenda ridden. He owes a ton of cash to REA, why should I believe a single word he says about Rob Lifson? He has continued to say stuff about the FBI that I seriously doubt.
Yes, I agree.

I love his site and always read it very carefully. He clearly works very hard to research these things, and I learn something every time I go there. However, he is skilled at cited "sources" and "experts," which is often difficult to accept when considering his admittedly dishonest past.
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  #80  
Old 07-09-2013, 04:48 AM
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Default PN reminds me of

Jose Canseco and that means we all need to be very worried. I bet he knows where many of "the bodies are buried".

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:39 AM
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OK, I will give you this, Travis -- this is a legitimate gripe. I could only imagine what would happen if a company like PSA had to be ISO certified. The ISO auditors would come in there and tear that place a new you-know-what.
ISO must have changed a LOT since 10 years ago.

I won't get much into it, but I dislike ISO nearly as much as Travis dislikes TPAs.

All they do is cert process. If the process is bad it's just documenting and enforcing bad process. So if PSAs process is to unpack stuff, give it to temp help hired off a streetcorner, then have a data entry person type a letter or flip and send it to slabbing/packing/ shipping.........As long as they do that every time and in just the same way, they're OK for ISO. (Not that some companies don't use it as a tool to improve both process and quality, just that most don't)

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  #82  
Old 07-09-2013, 11:43 AM
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Jose Canseco and that means we all need to be very worried. I bet he knows where many of "the bodies are buried".

Rich

How he most reminds me of Canseco, is that he turns on people/companies in which he was the one who initially supplied the junk to them in the first place.

When the piper comes a calling, he'll throw his friends under the bus the second his house comes under foreclosure again.

I like Travis, he's good for boxing, but I hope he doesn't eventually get steam-rolled by the Nash machine.

I've also noticed Nash has a habit of determining that every item that has a library stamp on it, must have been stolen at some point. I've been to enough library sales to know, these places are constantly blowing stuff out of their doors and dis-accessioning stuff to make room, and have been doing so for decades.

I once picked up an entire Civil War era bound volume of Harpers Illustrated Weekly from a library sale for 50 bucks.

Sure, if it can be definitively traced to the HOF, or some other confirmed robbery, I can understand, but if some librarian thought they could make 50 cents off a John Ward cabinet 50 years ago, and clear room, I don't understand why that would be so tough to believe. Without a police report, I think he is jumping to a lot of conclusions.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by travrosty View Post
psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.
I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:17 PM
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As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:39 PM
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He's a snake, why should we believe him? Maybe if he did the honorable thing and came clean, made restitution, et cetera, but as long as he's running from that it's just an agenda and not to be taken seriously.
Truth is truth, Dan. The moral character of the source notwithstanding.
If we ignore the Lifson references, is what Nash has been saying true?

Yes. It has.

Has an ungodly amount of material--much of which has been appearing on the market--been stolen from the HoF Library and the NYPL? Yes.

Has much of the high-end Halper material purchased by MLB and donated to the HoF been shown to be counterfeit? Yes.

Have many of the stories put forth by Halper regarding the provenance of items in his collection--including different, contradictory stories about the same piece--shown to be blatant lies? Yes.

Has the HoF made little-to-no effort in reacquiring its stolen material? Yes.

Has PSA and JSA made mind-numbing "blunders," without once owning up to their errors? Yes.

And so on.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:59 PM
mighty bombjack mighty bombjack is offline
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I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.
Beautifully written post. I am in total agreement all around.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:06 PM
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I've also noticed Nash has a habit of determining that every item that has a library stamp on it, must have been stolen at some point. I've been to enough library sales to know, these places are constantly blowing stuff out of their doors and dis-accessioning stuff to make room, and have been doing so for decades.

I once picked up an entire Civil War era bound volume of Harpers Illustrated Weekly from a library sale for 50 bucks.

Sure, if it can be definitively traced to the HOF, or some other confirmed robbery, I can understand, but if some librarian thought they could make 50 cents off a John Ward cabinet 50 years ago, and clear room, I don't understand why that would be so tough to believe. Without a police report, I think he is jumping to a lot of conclusions.
The Hall of Fame Library, and the New York Public Library have never deaccessioned the material in question. The HoF is not allowed to sell any of the material donated to them. And, since they do not purchase, it's all donated.

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Old 07-09-2013, 02:38 PM
travrosty travrosty is offline
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I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.


You haven't been paying attention have you?

when they issue loa for an autograph without any exemlars to compare it to, even though the loa says it was comapared to exemplars, is that just human error, an innocent mistake?


NO N-O!


as far as the bad exemplars on psa autograph facts, we showed them the rosalie fitzsimmons autograph where the fitzsimmons part matches up exactly with the fake fitzsimmons they have on there, so they know already its bad, they just dont care.

Of course you don't know if we are right or not. That's why you defend psa. if you knew if we were right or not, you wouldn't. How is that PSA slabbed 'signed' Holyfield card doing? You threw it away, right?


We tried contacting psa and the auction houses in the so called 'nice' way, we were polite, respectful, caring, loving, all-american, etc. THEY DONT CARE! That's what it got us when we tried to help. They didn't give a damn!

Me and M.O. from fighttoys tried to help heritage, I tried to help psa, they couldn't give a F.R.A. about it. It's the cold shoulder brush off. They would just say - thanks, we will take care of it, and then it was business as usual. The band plays on!

Last edited by travrosty; 07-09-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:50 PM
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The Hall of Fame Library, and the New York Public Library have never deaccessioned the material in question. The HoF is not allowed to sell any of the material donated to them. And, since they do not purchase, it's all donated.

I understand about the HOF, I even mentioned that in my post.

The NYPL is another animal. I'm sure some stuff has been pilfered, but the majority of his writings on that subject are pure speculation and connecting the dots to his predetermined conclusion.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:52 PM
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Truth is truth, Dan. The moral character of the source notwithstanding.
If we ignore the Lifson references, is what Nash has been saying true?

Yes. It has.

Has an ungodly amount of material--much of which has been appearing on the market--been stolen from the HoF Library and the NYPL? Yes.

Has much of the high-end Halper material purchased by MLB and donated to the HoF been shown to be counterfeit? Yes.

Have many of the stories put forth by Halper regarding the provenance of items in his collection--including different, contradictory stories about the same piece--shown to be blatant lies? Yes.

Has the HoF made little-to-no effort in reacquiring its stolen material? Yes.

Has PSA and JSA made mind-numbing "blunders," without once owning up to their errors? Yes.

And so on.


agreed, salient points.

the red herring by the people who wont accept the proof offered by haulsofshame is that they would somehow be on board and accept the proof if someone other than Nash were presenting it. this is of course nonsense. they are just using nash to misdirect from the problem of stolen property, some auction houses doing little to vet the items instead relying on TPA's to do the authentication that doesn't hit the mark on many ocassions.

The resistance to this information being made public is NOT nash - even though they would have you believe so. They just don't want this laundry out there because it shows the system currently in place, warts and all, and a lot of people want the warts covered up so the status quo can continue. It benefits too many for it to be dismantled, even in favor of something better (for the end consumer and the hobby).

Right now it doesnt get much better for the tpa's and those hooked in with them. You can authenticate as much material in secret with as few authenticators as you want. Spread your authentication teams out incredibly thin (up to 4 teams at once out on weekend shows). Not sign the loa's or sign them on 'behalf' of the company. not have to tell the customer just exactly who looked at and authenticated an autograph. not give a guarantee or anything. Just give excuses that it's an 'opinion'., Not show exemplars, and cash a boatload of checks for these nameless, anonymous coa's. what a great system, right?

Last edited by travrosty; 07-09-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:41 PM
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I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.
Well said, and unfortunately I'll bet only 99% of the forum understand this point.

Ken
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:55 PM
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I understand about the HOF, I even mentioned that in my post.

The NYPL is another animal. I'm sure some stuff has been pilfered, but the majority of his writings on that subject are pure speculation and connecting the dots to his predetermined conclusion.
Except, as I said, as far as has been ascertained the NYPL did not deaccession the said material. Deaccessioned items are clearly labeled as such--and no one in his right mind would destroy such a label.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:03 PM
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Except, as I said, as far as has been ascertained the NYPL did not deaccession the said material. Deaccessioned items are clearly labeled as such--and no one in his right mind would destroy such a label.

Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. Some of these items supposedly went missing decades ago. Librarian has a sale, moves some stuff out. It happens on a pretty regular basis. I'm not sure why the NYPL is any different from every other other library in the country.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:36 PM
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Librarian has a sale, moves some stuff out. It happens on a pretty regular basis. I'm not sure why the NYPL is any different from every other other library in the country.
Librarians at the NYPL main branch rare books collection--where the items were--don't have "sales."
And the NYPL is juuust a bit different, being the finest library in the country.

You might believe Nash is a snake--and he very well may be. But the NYPL items were stolen, nonetheless.

Last edited by David Atkatz; 07-09-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:18 PM
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You are probably right David, but how do we know someone didn't walk into the library in 1955, talk to the man in charge at the time and offer to buy a bunch of the books/letters for $500 bucks and walk out with them? Might be unlikely, but it is not an impossible scenario. Things were different 60 years ago and there was no monetary value placed on this stuff and the rules regarding selling items in their possession were not as strict. The law on this stuff is pretty clear that the person with possession is deemed to be the owner with good title unless a superior claim is put forward. Without concrete evidence of a superior ownership claim (which everyone believes the NYPL and HOF have, but can not prove it) they cant prove anything which is why they have not shown any interest up to now to try and get these things back. The FBI seized many of the Harry Wright letters in 2009 from what I understand on the subject, held them for 3 years and investigates the ownership claim, and then gave them back to the people they seized them from and told them to do as they wished with them because the NYPL had no evidence the items were in fact stolen despite the fact that it seems very likely they were.

I am with you that it is very likely, but saying "They were stolen" is a statement that would never hold up in court, and that is why the institutions will not pursue these items. They would lose in court and spend more moey getting to that decision than the items are probably worth.

Just a lowly Lawyes opinion on the subject without full knowledge of al the facts, just from what I have heard and read, stating only to the LEGAL aspect of these items and not the fact that I too believe they were likely stolen and probably an inside job 60 years ago. NOBODY knows for sure and if they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:39 PM
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Even if a librarian sold the items, they are still stolen. In that case, stolen by said librarian.
I think there's ample proof of previous ownership. It's refusal to own up to incompetence that prevents the recovery.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:47 PM
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Librarians at the NYPL main branch rare books collection--where the items were--don't have "sales."
And the NYPL is juuust a bit different, being the finest library in the country.

You might believe Nash is a snake--and he very well may be. But the NYPL items were stolen, nonetheless.
David- the bulk of the Spalding Collection at the NYPL is housed in the Department of Photos and Prints, and not part of any rare book collection. Small point, I know.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:53 PM
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Thanks for the correction, Barry. But my contention stands--nothing was deaccessioned.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:54 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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someday when it all hits the fan i will ask everyone to step forward that defend the tpa's that can't shoot straight due to not taking the time to do it right. and no one will come forward.
If I was to wager a ton of money on whether a major hammer falls first on the TPA's or Nash, all of my money is on Nash.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:05 PM
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If they were stolen 30 years ago I would think the statute of limitations for the NYPL or the HOF to file a claim would have long since passed.

I'd like to see his articles criticizing the NYPL and HOF for failing to maintain their collections and failing to follow up on stolen items. That is the real atrocity.

Last edited by packs; 07-09-2013 at 06:35 PM.
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