T206 w/ no red ink ends early on eBay. GRRR!

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Posted By: Ray

The seller tried to be cute with his description, but didn't realize he had a hidden gem on his hands. As the only underbidder and close follower of the auction, I was a little annoyed that someone managed to get him to end the auction early. The seller states that he sold to highest bidder at current price, but I don't see why ($12.75?). The highest bidder is a well-respected forum member and I don't believe he would cut a deal under the table. I emailed the seller and got no response. Any thoughts?

Here is the auction in question:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8708902744&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Here is the same card with Red ink:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Heinie-Wagner-Heinie-bat-left-Red-Sox_W0QQitemZ5244201571QQcategoryZ86841QQssPageNam eZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks,
Ray

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Posted By: robert a

Ouch,
Ray, that was a hidden gem. The kind of card that I search for pretty much every day. That's frustrating.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

If you look at one of the bidders it obviously wasn't a hidden gem. My guess is an off ebay deal was made. It is tough to get anything like this by everyone these days.

Lee

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

This card just doesn't look right to me. The boarders look to big and the factory print on the back also looks to big. Rob

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Posted By: Bryan

You could just ask Dan if he made a deal with the seller.

Edited for spelling.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

So Dan tell us. Rob

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You are saying that you are angry that someone came along and made a presumably good offer to the seller, depriving you of the chance of snagging a below market deal on a "hidden gem"? To be frank, I sense that your indignation stems more from disappointment over not getting over on the deal rather than from a lack of fair play. Would you feel the same way if the bid was at $500 instead of $12.75 when the seller ended the auction?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

e-mail the seller with an OUTRAGEOUS offer - an offer that you might not even be willing to pay! This works all the time, as the seller then realizes that he sold the card too cheaply to the person who made a deal outside of eBay. The seller usually cancels that deal, since it is not binding and relists the card thinking he/she can get even more than your outrageous offer for it!!!!!

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I still think that the card does not look right, Rob

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Posted By: zach

Nope. Theres nothing wrong with the card. Also, the seller is a good seller and doesn't sell reprints.

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Posted By: Ray

Warshaw, its a little bit of both. The seller had no idea what he had, and his title and description would make most people turn away without even blinking. But, that said, I see it happening more and more. On average I have about 25-40 auctions I'm watching, and about 3-4 a week are pulled early.

Scott, I emailed the seller before making the post here. He didn't reply. I hope you have better luck.

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Posted By: zach

.

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Posted By: Ray

I am in no way knocking the seller's knowledge of vintage cards. But, if you read the description, you can tell this one slipped past him:

"Ha-Ha-Ha you thought it was Honus didn't you??? It is still a nice card and is in VG+ condition and with the rare blueback Piedmont back (not rare just kidding). Anyway....bid on it - the card still books for $275!"

Oh well, one day I'll catch a break! LOL.

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Posted By: brian p

Another way of going about this is emailing a link of this thread to the seller. I think the seller would get the point that they made a mistake ending the auction early and that they could make more money by just relisting it properly.

All's fair in love and cards,

Brian

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

I didn't buy the card but I would not be suprised if the offer was for $225 and the seller was laughing all the way to the bank when he accepted the offer. I guess the joke was on him/her.

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Posted By: Cat

Last week I bought a card from a board member where he had to cancel an EBay Listing. I had simply e-mailed him and asked if he had considered a buy it now price. He e-mailed me back with a high price and I jumped at it. I truly believe I paid more than he would of recieved had he let the auction run. I was just willing to pay the "opportunity cost." When we talked on the phone, he actually did not want to cancel the auction, even though I said I would pay what he wanted. I think he felt he may be bashed a bit on this board (he wasn't).

The price of the card when I e-mailed him (the card had ran slighly longer than 1 day) was $27. The price of the card when he cancelled the listing (listed a day and a half at that point) was a little over $50. I can't remember the exact amount. What did I pay for it...$850.

About a year ago, I was going to buy a 1914 Walter Johnson Cracker Jack card. The card had ran on EBay but didn't make the reserve. About a week after the auction ended I emailed him and offered $1,200. He declined and relisted the card the next week. I bought it for $1,085.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I personally think once you put an item up for auction you should not be able to stop it. Of course you can put a reserve on it or a high opening bid. If you want to sell an item with out having an auction you should put it in the ebay store or put a buy it now on the item. Or you can put an add in SCD or a similar mag. If you didn't want to auction it in the first place and would have rather just sold it outright it should not be listed as an auction in the first place. Rob

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Posted By: warshawlaw

It simply isn't practical to try such a rule. The seller could always say that he lost the item, for example.

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

If there is an auction that I just have to have (one that doesn't come up very often)I will email the seller stating that I am interested in the auction and will have a high bid coming in at the last minute so please do not end the auction early. I also state that if he has an offer come, good enough that he is considering ending the auction to please let me know so that I have a chance to counter. In the rare occurences that I have done this, an auction has never ended early and the sellers have been receptive to this since they know a high bid is coming at the last sec.

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Posted By: Ray

I received a response from the seller of the auction this afternoon. It was very polite and well written. He apologized for pulling the auction and renegged on his deal. He is relisting it on eBay. I know it doesn't necessarily mean much because he will make out rather well on the new listing, but it was a nice gesture on his part.

I also received an unkind email from the person who apparently tried to buy it outright. My only response is that I played by the rules of eBay and that now I have an equal chance of winning the card fairly.

-Ray

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I knew it wouldn't be long when I e-mailed him a straight up offer for $1000 and told him I might go higher if I had to bid on ebay!

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Posted By: Ray

Then maybe you should have received the email I got from the buyer! LOL!

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

The card is not relisted as of yet. Rob

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

....

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

So do we get to find out who the person was that made the offer off line?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

More importantly I want to see the nasty email he sent.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I know Rich the seller and he is an old time hobbiest. He is a very nice guy and I have nothing but great dealings with him. This kind of thing happens all the time, and actually I did the same this with this very same seller, that is how I got to know him better. There was a N172 Ewing and Mascot variation that I asked Rich to end early, for a very strong and fair price, $6,500 and I was high bidder for like $250 or something at the time and he agreed and ended it. So ofcourse Rich got all kinds of offers and people saying he did wrong and then the board went going and say who ever got it got it cheap thinking it only went for $250 or something close. But the only reason it went back on ebay is that there was only one other higher offer from a board member for apparently 10k. So I told Rich that is a very strong offer and I couldn't match it as I didn't think it was fair market value. So I told him to sell to the other person for 10k as that was a great price to get for the card and I was done with it. Then he told me he was just going to relist it and see what happens. So I placed my bids and the auction closed at like $7,200 or something close to that. I did not win the card. So I emailed Rich and asked if the person who offered 10k won the card and Rich said no he didn't bid or he didn't bid even close to the final price or something like that. So yes the seller made and extra $700 which is great but with ebay fees and PalPay if there was PayPal I think he got a little extra. So what my long winded point is don't think people just make stupid offers and Rich is a stand up guy. Even though I didn't get the card it was great to meet him.

Also if you're not going to make a good offer (one you are really going to pay) DON'T MAKE IT!!!!! and if you made one and the card is relisted make sure to bid aleast what you where willing to pay it's only fair.

Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: Tom L.

I am not the buyer (nor do I know who got the seller to stop the auction), but what you guys are doing - by contacting the seller after he already made an off-line deal to sell the card - is actually contractual interference. Once the prospective buyer contacted the seller, the seller agreed to stop the auction and sell the item to the individual, they had a legal, binding contract (offer, acceptance, promises constituting consideration). Regardless of what you thought of the buyer's actions, you violated tort law when you contacted the seller and purposely induced him to renege on his contract.

I doubt that the individual would try to do anything about the situation (considering the amount probably isn't worth the energy/time of a legal fight). But just so you know, the buyer could go after the seller for breach of contract, and after whoever contacted the seller for tortious interference with a contract.


As for possible damages: per the Restatement, 2nd of Torts (which a number of states have expressly adopted as state law), "such damages as would reasonably flow from a tortious contractual interference" may include the pecuniary loss of the benefits of the contract, consequential losses for which the tortious act is the legal cause, emotional distress and actual harm to reputation, if they are reasonably to be expected to result from the tortious act, and, in appropriate circumstances, punitive damages. See also Dobbs, Law of Remedies, § 6.4, p. 461.

I know this stuff happens all the time without ramication, but I can see someone going after the seller and interfering person in a situation where the item at issue was extremely rare/expensive/desirable.

Have a nice day,
Tom

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Posted By: leon

What you are saying is most likely true. It makes me friggin PUKE but is probably true. I think the seller should get punched in the face and the person making the offer should get his ass kicked. Is that legal?

Trevor- you forgot to mention the little "PL" designation on the Ewing card.....probably helps the value a tad bit.

regards

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Posted By: Ray

I will only post the name and/or e-mail with Leon's permission. I am more of a lurker than a poster and I don't want to do something that is not kosher on the board.

As far as Tom's comment goes, didn't the seller "break eBay rules" by ending the auction early? He did not sell the card at the price it was currently at in the auction, as his listing states. Who knows... who cares... I didn't start this thread to get people pissed at me or anyone else. I did it because I'm seeing more and more auctions end early and it ticks me off because I keep losing out on a chance to possibly snipe them.

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Posted By: Cobby33

So has this card been re-listed?

Also-I'm not sure this qualifies as interference with a contract, as there are several elements which must be met (6 in California) and there is no per se prohibition from parties making offers on pending/completed transactions.
Now--if the pending/completed agreement was breached, that could be a breach by the seller (or buyer-whomever cancels the transaction without justification or permission), actionable by the wronged party.
Point is, we should be careful not to indict the wrong party for the wrong reason.

Just my $.02.

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Posted By: dan mckee

My emails were not that bad, here they are to both of you for screwing me out of the deal: To Ray: you successfully screwed me with your post
the seller renegged on the deal
nice to meet you
dan

to Scott: You were successful Scott
The seller renegged on the Wagner
congratulations
dan

If these are nasty, then you do not know me too well. Trust me, I can be REAL NASTY! The problem is, the seller ended the auction early, that is allowed by ebay with me as the winner, he rightfully should sell to me at the auction price. He isn't so you guys were successful. I lose, no biggie.

Leon, I was the offerer but I don't think you can kick my ass but you are very welcome to try, my money is on me though. J/K.

Bottomline here is that many people do it, thanks for coming in Trevor, I appreciate the support. I started doing it after I lost several items like Ray stated. I just lost the buttercream Foxx today that someone closed down. I do it because it gets done to me and it is part of the cutthroat competition.

I come to this board when I have time to possibly help out on information or to post when there is an ebay scam like doctored fakes. I have been collecting 37 years and have alot to offer the board. Obviously, I can get crapped on just as easy as anyone else. I appreciate the comradery here, with friends like you guys, who needs PSA?

You won, I lost.
my best to all, Dan.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Leon,

I did say it was a Variation and yes a PL variation at that hence the $6,500 offer which was very much in line with current market and a very fair offer.

Plus for me to hear you say the comments about people trying to end items early is shocking. When you have stated on this board many times before that you your self have done this same thing? Maybe it was just sarcasm on your side that I was missing. Well any rate my thought is if I really want something I better go after it as aggressively as possible or someone else will and I will scratching my head and complaining to board members about how unfair it is that it ended early. At least by getting in contact with the seller it lets you get a communication going on just how interested you are in there item.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I was watching a George C Miller candy tin once. The seller ended it early. I was crying to Leon and he stated that he closed them down. The seller told me they sold it at their yardsale, that was funny. Anyway, since I knew Leon and he closed it down, I did not try to ruin his deal. If I didn't know him maybe I would have. It happens all of the time and you either do it, or you lose out. Dan.

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Posted By: Cobby33

What is this card worth, generally, anyway?

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Posted By: dan mckee

A few hundred at best, if you will look closely, there are still traces of the red. If Scott is willing to pay $1000 for it, then by god he should own it.

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Posted By: Tom Lawrie

1. The seller didn't break eBay's rules by ending the listing early.

EBay's rules prevent a seller from refusing to sell an item after an auction has ended with a successful bidder, but they don't specifically forbid the practice of ending the listing early. (EBay still gets their insertion fee plus the optional feature fees, which are non-refundable.) In fact, eBay actually provides procedures for ending the auction early.

The following 2 sections (taken verbatim from eBay policies) are most relevant:

A. "Seller Non-Performance: When a seller lists an item on eBay, and a buyer bids for and wins that item, the seller and buyer have entered into a contract. Both members are expected to honor that contract. In accordance with that contract, the seller may not:
Fail to deliver an item for which payment was accepted.
Significantly misrepresent an item by not meeting the terms and item description outlined in the listing.
Refuse to accept payment for an item at the end of a successful sale.
Refuse to accept a buyer’s PayPal payment using a credit card ... "

B. "Ending Your Listing Early: Sometimes something goes wrong and you can't complete your listing as planned. If needed, you can choose to end your listing before the scheduled date. If there are bids on your item, you can cancel them.

Reasons for ending listings early include:
The item is no longer available for sale.
There was an error in the starting price or reserve amount.
There was an error in the listing.
The item was lost or broken.

Note: Your account will still be charged listing fees (such as the Insertion Fee) if you end your listing early. Consider revising your listing first if there are aspects of it you want to change or improve.

Timing Matters
When there are 12 hours or fewer remaining and the item has a winning bid, including a reserve met bid, sellers may not make any changes to the listing, including:
ending the item early. Sellers may cancel bids, but not end the item unless the item is being sold to the high bidder
adding to or changing the item description
converting the item to pre-approved bidder
Canceling bids or making changes to a listing with bids when there are 12 hours or fewer remaining damages the buyer experience and can undermine trust in the marketplace.

To end your listing early, follow these steps:
Type your item number into the End My Listing Early form. (You can get this number on your listing, on your confirmation email, or on your My eBay page.)
If there are bids on your item, choose between:
a. Cancel bids and end listing early
or
b. Sell item to high bidder(s) and end listing early
If your item has no bids, you'll skip this step.
Choose the reason you're ending your listing early.
Now your listing will end and will no longer be displayed on eBay. If there were bidders, they will be emailed that their bid was canceled and the listing ended early.
Note: Sellers are not permitted to cancel bids and end listings early in order to avoid selling an item that did not meet the desired sale price. This is considered to be reserve fee circumvention. Although there are legitimate reasons for ending a listing early, abuse of this option will be investigated." [end of eBay quotes].

2. But even if the seller had somehow violated eBay's rules (which he didn't), that would still be a separate issue between eBay and the seller. It probably doesn't negate the validity of the contract between an off-line buyer and the seller, or the issue of contractual interference of subsequent e-mailers to the seller. Bidders, watchers, and prospective snipers generally have no legal right to complain if the seller ends the auction early. [This all presupposes that there was no actual auction "winner."]

You may not like it - and trust me, I don't like it - but that's pretty much the way it is.

Tom

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great Tom! Will you represent me when I sue Ray and Scott? J/K. Tom, lmk if your check made it today. Hell, I am 1 for 1 in court, but I hope I never see another court room in my life! Sorry Adam, you can have your job.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

both the seller and the interfering party can be held liable. The seller can be forced to complete the contract (specific performance) or if that is not possible because the item is already gone, he can be held liable for the value of the item not sold, less the purchase price not paid. The interfering party can be hit for compensatory and punitive damages.

Ebay rules aren't law, BTW; and asking someone to end early doesn't violate them anyway.

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Posted By: Tom L.

I am pretty sure your interpretation of contractual interference is wrong:

The following is taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

"Although the specific elements required to prove a claim of tortious interference vary from one jursidiction to another, they typically include the following:

1. The existence of a contractual relationship or beneficial business relationship between two parties.
2. Knowledge of that relationship by a third party.
3. Intent of the third party to induce a party to the relationship to breach the relationship.
4. Lack of any privilege on the part of the third party to induce such a breach.
5. Damage to the party against whom the breach occurs."

Also, under common law: "Tortious interference with contract rights can occur where the tortfeasor convinces a party to breach the contract against the plaintiff, or where the tortfeasor disrupts the ability of one party to perform his obligations under the contract, thereby preventing the plaintiff from receiving the performance promised."

[Source: Jesse Dukeminier and James E. Krier, Property, Fifth Edition, Aspen Law & Business (New York, 2002), p. 31-36.]

Anyway, I think that all of the elements are met when someone convinces the seller to renege on an off-line sale.

Tom



I saw the post by Adam (warshawlaw) after I put all of this down. He is a California attorney - and a damn good one by all reports - and so I would take his word as gospel on this issue.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Tom, you are fired! Adam, you are hired. Sorry Tom, I have seen Adam in action! And he is DAMN good!

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I just want to say again Rich (the seller) is a nice guy and an old hobbiest. He is not trying to screw anyone he is just trying to make the most return of his old collection from what I can see. He has been very fair with me and when someone offered more money than me on my deal which was a lot more than $1,000 I just told him the truth that it is more money than I would be willing to pay and he should sell it to the other person with the higher offerno harm no foul.

Hay ebay is just like a big swapmeet knowleadge is power and do what ever it takes to get the items you really want as long as you follow all the rules.

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Posted By: leon

Trevor, Dan et al.....the ONLY times I have asked to stop an auction is BEFORE there were bids on it....right or wrong my feeling is if there are NO bids I am not hurting anyone...and yes I know people snipe...but no bids are no bids....regards all

edited to say...No Dan I was not referring to you specifically when I say the seller should be punched and the offerer his ass kicked....it was just in general....now if ya give me some Jack then we might fight...but then I am more harmless than I am now....

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Posted By: Mark

Actually, when the buyer gets the card, I think he is going to be very disappointed. I can read the "Boston" across the chest, and the scan is very dark to start with. When you see the card in a good light, I am sure no one would really consider it a true color missing card. Just lighter than normal. Take a good look at it! As for value, I sold one that truly did have all of the red color missing on ebay a couple of years ago. It went for $1300 at that time.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I don't want to get into a pissing match about who's the better CA lawyer, since it doesn't really matter to me--but, my interpretation of the law isn't wrong, as we are working under the same elements.

You correctly point out that one must prove:

2. Knowledge of that relationship by a third party.
3. Intent of the third party to induce a party to the relationship to breach the relationship.

Thus, you HAVE TO show that the "interfering" party KNEW that there was an actual VALID contract between the two SPECIFIC parties and that they had SPECIFIC INTENT to have one (or both) of the parties breach the contract. This is usually very difficult to prove, which is why it rarely succeeds.

Again, my point is not to issue a treatise on contract law. It is just to remind everyone that we should reserve judgment on who wronged who until we are 100% sure of the facts (and for that matter, the law).

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Posted By: dan mckee

Whiskey makes you nasty? I love it. I heard you were a mean drunk! But I don't buy it, you are too laid back.

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Posted By: Ray

Tom,

You are wrong when you say he did not violate eBay rules. Unless he sold the card to Dan for $12.75 (which we can pretty much assume he didn't), his ending of the auction does not meet any of their approved reasons. eBay even states in the fine print when someone asks you a question about an auction you are running: If the person makes any offers to outright purchase your item offline, you should report them.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

With all due respect, the analysis here is entirely oversimplistic. In addition to the points raised by Cobby33, it must also be shown that the so-called interfering party had no privilege to interfere. In Arizona, and I suspect 49 other states as well (or at least those that follow the restatement of torts), competitors enjoy at least a limited privileged to interfere. It's called competition and free commerce.

Ever hear of someone breaking a lease to go down the street to a better/cheaper space? Drop out of a home purchase because he got a better deal? Happens all the time. Can the party backing out of these deals be sued for breach of contract, hell yes. It is an economic consequence that must be factored into the decision to breach the contract. Can the guy who offered the better deal be sued for interference with contract, hell no, at least absent a showing of some alterior and improper motive or means used in enticing the breach. In the case of this so-called off-ebay transaction, the interference claim would have a snowball's chance in hell of success, IMHO.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Can someone email me the link to the thread where we all shared our ebay ID's? thanks Dan.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Good points.