NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-14-2008, 06:08 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: andy

Can any button collectors help me with this one? I haven't seen another like it and wonder if anyone else has. Team issue maybe? It has Whitehead & Hoag paper and is 7/8" - Thanks,
Photobucket

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-14-2008, 07:50 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Andy,
I had that Carrasquel pin along with a Gus Zernial pin just like that. I believe it was a "test" set of pins that were put out to show the white sox what they would look like if issued. I think I narrowed it down to 1950-1951. I traded the Zernial pin (mistake) years ago . I dont have a scan as it was before scanners. They are rare and hard to find. But as is so many of these sub sets of pins. Like these 2 sorry Rob Im still holding them for you!!!

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-14-2008, 08:31 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: andy

Thanks Al, that was quick. While I'm at it, here's another of my mystery buttons. As far as I can tell it's a Green Duck sample style button that may have some sort of catalogue number on it. I've heard different estimations of what it may be, but seeing as it has on it 3 different ways to say "hello" including the word hello in Lithello, I'm assuming it's a marketing piece and sales sample. I know of only one other residing in a collection in Florida. Have you seen this one by any chance?
Photobucket

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-14-2008, 09:18 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Andy,
You are probably right as I also believe this was a test piece by Green Duck. Probably done in the mid 70s to promote their new product line Lithello. As some of the other button producers held patents on the celluloid process,I believe Green Duck had come up with a new " cello-like coating" to use on their pins. I believe in one of Hakes auctions there was some literature sold about a year or so ago that explained the NEW process. As to the pin it seemed there was alot of Willie Mays pins that were made in very limited amounts around that time frame. The Booster Willie Mays Day pin comes to mind . Maybe just to venture a guess he may have wanted to be paid for the use of his likeness on items . Who knows but in any event that is also a rare item to come by! Maybe Paul M. may know a little more about it.

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-14-2008, 09:33 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: andy

Somewhere on the internet I found some similar info on the Lithello process. I couldn't find it again with a brief search tonight. With Mays in a Mets cap it must have been 72-73. I could be wrong but I think the orange Booster pin has him in a NY Giants cap making that one pretty early. Thanks for the info!
-a

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-14-2008, 09:44 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Al Simeone

Andy,
Just a follow up to a strange observation. The I believe letters are ASL with numbers 5814. The letters could stand for the American Sign Language and the funny part is their phone # ends in 5814. Just another something strange to a very strange pin !!!!!

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Andy,
As to time frame you are correct in the fact that its a mets cap but we must remember the pin itself could have been made many years later and just that likeness was used.

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-17-2008, 11:45 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Andy,

I have the little pin, but don't know what to make of it. My sincere answer to both pins is a profound "I don't know". Nevertheless, here is my speculation. The quality of the color on C.C. pin would suggest it was made after he played, perhaps many years later. It has rich flesh tones, suggestive of a sophisticated imaging technique. The Indians pins featured are highly prototypical of the era. A B/W photo surrounded by a blue inscription (I have a few of those as well, an as-yet-to-be-catalogued set). For the Chicago White Sox fans out there, did the team have a "day" or some other promotional event for him in the past 20-25 years? The W.S. were a notoriously frugal team, especially when it came to such events, so making a very small pin of C.C. would fit right in with their style. In truth, I don't know what this pin is, but I'm 99% sure it was not made when he played. His playing career pre-dates the manufacturing technology.

As far as the Mays pin, it was definitely a promo item by the Green Duck Company. A Chicago-based company, it is interesting they elected to feature Mays. Perhaps Banks was retired by then. The value of lithography in pin-making is its low cost. The bane of lithograph pins is they are easily scratched. A lithograph pin is made by first applying a base coat of paint, onto which is applied ink. Any mild ding scratches the ink, and a serious ding scrathes through the paint itself to the base metal. To reduce scratching of lithographed pins, a third clear coat was applied over the ink, in effect serving as a liquid-based equivalent of celluloid (plastic). I suspect that is the manufacturing technique being referenced on the pin. I have not seen this pin before. I would be interested to know if the small letters and numbers refer a production code. The term "P" and "PM" also became introduced to the hobby through manufacturing terminology. Since the Mays pin was made after 1969, I wonder if the lawyers at MLB sent a nasty letter to Green Duck regarding MLB holding the licensing rights to MLB images. I did some initial digging into the legal archives of MLB to find when and to what degree the enforcement of these licensing rights were put into action. Simply put, I didn't get very far. We forget how old we are and how old these issues here. Next year (2009) marks the 40th anniversary of MLB licensing their images in merchandise of all types. All I could really ascertain was the breadth of material covered by licensing rights got broader over time, and up until the mid-1970s violators were not vigorously pursued. But by the 10-year mark, a merchandiser either paid the fee or got some heavy legal heat to cease and desist. Many a "Mom-and-Pop" company of baseball merchandise were forced to throw in the towel at that point in time (sorry for the boxing metaphor).

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-18-2008, 08:08 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Aaron Patton

(...Forgive my ignorance in advance, as I'm a pinback noob)

When did W&H stop producing pinbacks?




Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:35 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: andy

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the response. A while back I found some information about this "lithello" process and if I remember right, it was billed as some sort of litho/celluloid combo. To the touch as well as visually, you can't tell the difference between this product and a straight celluloid button. I've added a pic of the back to show you the construction.

The origin of this button is kinda funny. In the early to mid-70's, my dad was in a store called "Awards by Kay" in Sacramento. It was basically a trophy shop and in the corner was one of those carpeted houses that cats climb on. This button was pinned on this thing and he asked if he could have it and the guy said sure.

Some time ago, a collector said that this pin was given out in conjunction with a golf tournament that Mays attended/hosted in Hawaii. I'm not sure about that but it certainly does appear to be a sample design that could be ordered with the text/photos of the buyers choice.

Thanks again,
-Andy
Photobucket

Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-18-2008, 11:53 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Aaron,

Not a bad question at all, as the answer is more complex than the question seems, especially given the pin of Chico that prompted this discussion. A direct answer to your question is 1955. W&H was bought out by Bastian Brothers of Rochester, NY. Hoag died in 1935, and Whitehead died in 1940. I think the passion for crafting the artwork embodied in their pins co-incided with their founding legacy within the company. However, for pure artistic beauty, I would give the Gold Medal (it's Olympics season) to Bastian Brothers, with W&H a close second. In what breaks my heart, part of the purchase of W&H by Bastian was destroying the manifest of all pins ever made by W&H. That is, the "master list" (not specimens of the pins themselves, of which there were probably few laying about given the sheer magnitude of items they produced) went to an old furnace or a newly invented shredder. Think about that. While at one time over 500 companies made pins, imagine if the manifest of Topps had been destoyed. How big of a blow would that have been to the card collectors in our hobby? Since I know nothing about cards, perhaps little. But at least a manifest tells you what there is to collect, and when you would have a "hole" in your collection.

Back to the Chico pin. If the pin was made after 1955 (and I think it was), obviously it was not made by W&H. Another interesting question is when did W&H abandon paper inserts into the backs of their pins for advertising purposes? I don't know. Another way to identify a pinmaker is an imprint on the curl. Andy's Chico pin represents the epitome of the joy (and frustration) of being a pin collector. We don't know:
1. When it was made.
2. Why it was made (part of a test set or a special day for him at the park).
3. Who made it (a paper insert and a soft-tipped pair of tweezers or delicate fingers can insert a paper disk promoting one pinmaker inside the back of a pin made by another pinmaker without damaging the paper).
4. What exact manufacturing technology was used to produce a pin with such rich texture.
5. How did this pin enter our hobby, and why are there so few of them known? Their scarcity (not value, per se) would lean in the direction of some test set. If 40,000 of these were given out at Comiskey Park one day in the past 25 years, where are the other 39,997 of them (Andy has one, I have one, and another member has one).

The only interrogatory left unposed is "where". If we know the who, we would know the where. There you have it. Pin freaks love things that many times we don't know the who, what, when, where, why, or how of the stuff we collect.

Since a few members are sharing stories about The National, I have one to contribute. I saw a pin being sold by a dealer that was 100% fantasy. Not a repro, just a pin made with a modern day manufacturing technology of an old player. There never was an "original" to this pin. The dealer told me it wasn't vintage, so there was no attempt at deception between buyer and seller. The dealer (somewhat) mistakenly said if the pin were vintage, it would be worth a fortune. That part is true, but there never was a vintage version of this pin. I bought it as a memento of the amount of work some people will put into producing an item (not much), and then altering the item to deceive (more effort than it took to make the pin itself). This procedure is called "distressing" an object--creating flaws to suggest age. This was a work of art. The pin was of Tris Speaker. It must have been made off of some product he was endorsing in a print ad (thus the source of the original image). Let's forget the pin was oval-shaped. Some baseball team pins were oval, but designed that way to accommodate the shape of the image, as a team seated for a photograph. The 1929 Cubs pin would be a prime example. But this was an individual player pin. Tris was showing his age. The creator of this gem doctored the re-re-re-produced ad copy, probably with harsh lighting, to create an uneven (differentially faded) background to the paper. The image was clear enough to see his face, read his name, and read the product he was endorsing. But alas, you would have to read this from a distance of 6 inches from your nose. Not exactly what a company has in mind when they commission a pin to advertise its product.

But the best was saved for the reverse. Small scratches were made in the metal, and a chemical was added to promote rust, which was duly abundant. Not so much as to make you scream "This is junk", but just enough for you to conclude, "Wow, this sure is old--you can tell--look at that rust"! Please don't ask me why I bought this piece of pure fool's gold. I kept telling myself one day I might do a piece on repros and fantasies. This pin was so bad it was "good". The wacko who made it is happy, the dealer who sold it to me is happy and guilt-free since he told me the truth, and I'm happy (but can't quite figure out way). Perhaps from a sense of premature altruism when I show the hobby something that has no odor but stinks to high hell.

Aaron, can you imagine the length of my answer to a long, complicated question?

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: leon

Now for a long question .....Actually I am contemplating keeping this thread for our archives. We very much appreciate your expertise....btw, I have a few pins at home I need help on identifying so might chime in later...best regards

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Andy,

As I said in my book, "If only pins could talk". See, I can write short replies.

Paul

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:16 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Leon,

I'm flattered to be asked to assist a fellow collector, and honored you would archive my response. Happy to help any time. As you might have guessed by now, I love talking about pinbacks. Just be grateful I don't charge by the word. But please knock off the "happy face" icon. I find them very annoying. My students sometimes turn in term papers and tests with them on it. I have developed my own iconic response (patent pending) ,,!,,

Paul

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-18-2008, 11:46 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Paul, the pin you have sounds like the Tris Speaker Biffer (or something close to that) pin that sometimes surfaces and has on occasion sold for more than it should.
-Rhett

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-19-2008, 08:28 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Aaron Patton


Paul,

As an academic, I would expect nothing less (length). Your knowledge (as well as other board members, ex. Al S. & Rhett Y) has been absolutely indispensable in my pursuit of the hobby. Thank you.

You answered what I was getting at. In my limited exposure to the hobby, I haven't handled many W&H pinbacks post-WWII. I wondered, based on your comments regarding techology (and now your historical perspective), whether the paper had been added to the CC back.

Perhaps giving you a nudge....A guide on fantasy pieces, repros, etc. al. would be great. As an excitable collector, I have the propensity to overlook the more obvious tell-tale signs that a piece is "not-original". As a novice, PM10s (Mantle/Maris) are a little tricky, with the wide variances of texts, color, etc. Also, count me among those who, when seeing back rust/oxidation, feel more confident about a pick-up. Your account of the Speaker pinback proves I should adjust my thinking a bit.

I suppose part of the hobby "experience", is, quite literally, the actual "experience". My knowledge of cardboard runs circles around that of pinbacks. Undoubtedly, time will even things up a bit. A "what to look for" tutorial/repro catalogue would be a fantastic companion compendium to your book. (Respectfully omitting smiley)

Thanks Professor, Board

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-19-2008, 10:35 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Alan

Paul,

I didn't know you attended the National. Were you at the Net54 dinner ?

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:25 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

I had arrived and left the convention before you guys were served dinner. I wish I could say I was out-running an agent trying to serve me a subpoena. The truth is far more mundane.

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:07 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,359
Default Pinback Guys...

Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Aaron,

You are right. There is no substitute for experience. Knowing you don't know something is one thing, but thinking you do when you don't is another. The latter is far more humbling. I'm still learning, and some of it doesn't make much sense, even after I have learned it. One case in point (I'll try to be brief).

About 10 years ago at The National some guy I never met before walks up to me at the show and asks me if I could help authenticate a pin for him being sold by a dealer. I didn't know how he knew I was into pins (this is before I wrote my book). I said sure, glad to help, and was envisioning some knockout piece of Wagner or Cobb. Not quite. The pin was a PM10, straight B/W, from the 1950s, of an obscure catcher (I believe) from the Red Sox, Sam White. The dealer wanted $10 for the pin. The pin was extracted from his case, and I gave it a careful inspection. I assured the guy the pin was vintage, he thanked me, I walked away, and I don't know if he bought the pin or not. As I was walking away, I sort of smirked to myself, imagining a crafty cheat who floods the market with repro Sam White pins. Yep, there sure would be a ton of money to be made in those. And for $10, how badly could this guy get hurt?

About five years later I'm in a sports memorabilia store. The owner had only a few pins, two of which were PM10s. I already had them, but asked to see them anyway. One was of Dom DiMaggio, the other of Bobby Thomson. Both were of the exact same era as the Sam White pin, and perhaps DiMaggio and White had overlapping careers with Boston. Both pins were high quality repros. I left the shop no longer thinking the Sam White pin story was quite so funny anymore. Who produces repro pins of Dom DiMaggio and Bobby Thomson? I don't know, but someone did. Why? Dom had a famous brother, and Bobby hit a famous home run. Does that qualify them as being of reproducable stature? Both pins were priced at $15, as I recall. The reproduction of these pins, of all the pins one could reproduce, just didn't make much sense. But that is what they were, repros. Maybe the guy who asked me about the White pin knew something I didn't.

Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why did this pinback go for so much? Archive Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 1 03-18-2009 09:38 AM
Help with pinback Archive Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 15 09-28-2007 03:16 AM
O/T For Stat Guys Only, I'm sure SABR guys are already looking it up Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 48 07-05-2007 06:31 PM
Pinback - Need help with this one. Archive Everything Else, Football, Non-Sports etc.. B/S/T 0 02-27-2006 02:42 PM
Can Anyone Help With This Pinback? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 10-14-2005 12:10 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:57 AM.


ebay GSB