To Grade or Not to Grade

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Posted By: Josh K. 

I just purchased the card in the link, an ungraded T205 Collins (mouth closed). In the past, I have not sent in many cards for grading. Any opinions on (1) who makes the best slab; and (2) which of the big three is likely to give it the best grade (I intend to keep it for my collection and want it to look nice and be protected, however, I also dont want to jeopardize its resale value if it ever becomes necessary to do so). Finally, since Im no expert in grading (I just buy what looks nice to me) any thoughts on how this may grade (my guess - 3 or 4). Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5109582815&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

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Posted By: Morrie

Nice pick-up. In answer to your questions (no particular order), I think a 3-4 is probably reasonable (I lean more toward a 3, but it's a nice 3), and there shouldn't be much difference in who will give it the "best" grade. The companies that have looked at the bulk of the pre-war stuff are SGC and PSA, and if you're most concerned about future resale, the consensus seems to be to go with PSA. I actually like both the SGC and GAI slabs better than the PSA, and it seems like SGC has a better handle on the pre-war cards, so may be more accurate.

Not sure if it answers your questions, but hey - you asked. Regardless, enjoy your card!

Morrie

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Posted By: James Verrill

Assuming that is a crease at top left, I'd say:

PSA: 2
SGC: 30
GAI: 3, maybe 3.5

Just my opinon.

Jim

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Posted By: jay behrens

I wouldn't say PSA is the route to go for future value. There are a lot of problems with company that could hurt the future value of cards in PSA holders. If you are looking to flip the card right away, PSA is the best bet.

For consistancy and looks, SGC is the best in the business. GAI looks good too, but with all these cards slipping around int he holders, it's not a really safe way to protect your cards.

Jay

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Posted By: Josh

Jay,
What is going on at PSA? I get all my cards graded from them!!!

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Posted By: Josh K.

Jay,

One follow up to your post - are the problems with slipping in the case unique to gai or does it happen with sgc as well? Ive read the post regarding the gai problem but had not heard of such problems with SGC. Thanks.

James - Im told that the card is not creased. Does that change your opinion?

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I have never had a problem with sliping in SGC holders (or PSA). Over 25% the the GAI cards that I have bought slip in their holders. The only good feature of the GAI holder is the top label.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Josh, if you do a thread search for PSA, you see what I am talking about. From the WIWAG scandal to oviously trimmed cards to certain submitters getting preferential grades, there are a lot of serious problems with PSA as far as long term investment goes that need to be addressed.

All of my graded cards are in SGC holders except a 33 Goudey Gehrig I recently bought. Most of my brother's cards are also in SGC holders and I've never seen a card in an SGC holder slip like they do in GAI holders.

My dream holder, a cross between SGC's great layout, GAI's ID at the top of the holder and Champs "impossible to open without breaking the holder" slabs.

Jay

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Posted By: Bill Kasel

In my mind you can't go wrong with SGC. In my opinion they have the best looking slabbed cards. The black really makes the card stand out. I have been very happy with their services over the last year that I have been sending in cards.

Bill

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Posted By: Morrie

Even with all the problems PSA has had, and their unwillingness to publicly discuss WIWAG, the Rose rookie, and the various other publicity nightmares, they still dominate the market share.

Mind you, they lost my business permanently when Joe O. refused to answer questions on their boards and threads questioning PSA's business practices were continually pulled. But if reports from the national are to be believed, it seems like it's PSA slabs that move best, and unless the public gets more educated about some of PSA's (potentially shady) business practices, that isn't likely to change.

If I were going to have my t206's slabbed for protection/posterity, I'd do it through SGC. I like everything I've seen from them, from their slabs to how they treat customers. But I also never have any intention of selling the cards, and I like to be able to take them out and hold them, even sniff them (does that make me weird?) every once in a while. If I thought I might sell them, I'd be a mercenary little wretch and send them off to PSA.

What's my point? I guess that PSA has a big enough market share and enough of a loyal (some would say "frothing") following that I would still say the smart money is on them to hold resale value in the coming years. I honestly hope SGC can narrow the gap. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

Morrie

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Posted By: Josh

Pardon my ignorance, but what is WIWAG?

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Posted By: Dan

How does one submit without going through a PSA authorized dealer? Where I live, there are none within a few hours away. Have they changed their way for submitting? I have a slew of newer items that I want to send in.

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Posted By: Morrie

I'm sure these are archived somewhere, but...

link 1

link 2

To the other question, you can buy a membership in PSA and submit yourself, if you don't know an authorized dealer. I have better things to do with $99 this year...

Morrie

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Posted By: dan mckee

mail to PSA at your own risk! They changed the website and stopped allowing non-members to submit cards right after they lost my T206 Magie. Now you have to join their club to submit to them. My advice, if you like PSA, submit IN PERSON at a show and get a receipt. Do NOT mail it in. Dan.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I didn't say PSA would take a hit over night. Long term, they are not a smart investment because of past and current business practices. There is a lot of money tied up in PSA cards and the people that have those cards are going to do what they can to try and prop up PSA for as long as possible. Once the ship starts taking on too much water, then you will start seeing the rats abandon the ship. Until then, or if PSA gets it act together (I'm certainly not holding my breath on this one) PSA will be a great short term way to slab your cards, but one to be avoided if you plan on holding your cards for a long time.

Jay

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Posted By: Pcelli60

Its at least a 3. But measure that sucker first, make sure it fits the specifications!!

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Posted By: steve

hmmmm, so psa has problems that need addressing? Im sure they do, Most MULTI Million dollar business's do, however SGC has some as well, most notably why is it that a dealer is now a part owner? That is a basic conflict of interest. That aside my answer to the original query before it got hi jacked by some PSA Bashers is NICE card, if it meets the min requirements for measurure (ie: how much if any has been trimmed)? We all know many of these cards were in fact trimmed, cut etc. is this card at VG+ Where they equate to the various Grading company's standard would differ. PSA 4? GAI 3.5 to 4.5? SGC 30 VG ? In any event your card is nice!

Dan did you imply PSA changed its web site and method of submission in direct response to your situation? (yes i know you Won the court case). Your reply sorta insinuated that Surly you know that your situation and what PSA did to its web site and it's submission policy had no more to do with it then a cup of coffee.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Steve,

Thanks for getting us back on point. I hope its not trimmed, but at least I got it from a reputable dealer who offered (in writing) a full refund if it does not grade due to trimming.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Steve, how is pointing out the the serious flaws of PSA, bashing? Josh wanted to know who makes the best slab and who will give it the highest grade. But you cannot talk about slabbing a card without talking about the investment angle. Almost everyone agrees, if you are looking to flip the card quick, PSA is a winner. But long term, it's not so good. The exact opposite can be said about SGC, unless you are talk about getting pre-WW1 cards graded.

I'm not sure how long you've been reading this board, but if think this PSA bashing, you need to go back read some of the older threads about PSA. This has probably been the kindest PSA thread ever.

Jay

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Posted By: Josh K.

Does anyone have any opinions on the new ownership at SGC? In the SGC thread, Steve Verkman did not have a lot of positive things to say. Here's his post:

"As many of you know, my company was one of the strongest supporters of the SGC grading company for many years. We felt they were more consistent graders and I agree with the others who posted about how much better their holders look than PSA or Global.

A grading company is only as good as its graders and its integrity. I have stopped submitting cards to SGC since Derek Grady left as the top grader. While Derek was not perfect, we was 100% honest and would research something before blindly making decisions on grading and authenticity. After Derek left, I cannot say anything good, bad or indifferent about the graders at SGC as I have never met them or know a thing about them as they are almost certainly VERY new to high quality vintage cards.

Many of you made reference to David Foreman. He now apparently has an ownership stake in SGC. Foreman has been a major supporter of PSA for almost 10 years and is literally a pioneer when it comes to trimming and restoring cards. He has been buying low and mid grade cards and "improving" them for over a decade now.

Even if one supposes that Foreman was undergone a religious conversion and is now a Saint, do you guys really believe as I was told by Sean at SGC that Foreman does not buy or sell any cards? Why would he give up a potentially large income to get involved in the declining and incredibly competitive grading world.

I don't know how many of you noticed but Foreman's brother submits cards to SGC and is now running his own auction of high quality vintage cards (he had many on display at the National). If that is not a conflict of interest, what is?

Foreman apparently had a major role in the Teletrade company, with rumors around the show circuit stating that he owned the company. From what I understand it no longer exists as he allowed many cards from the PRO Grading Service and other problematic material to be funneled through Teletrade.


With all of this said, I can offer no strong endorsement of any grading company. SGC is the only one that has a known dealer as an owner and has the brother of this person grading cards. PSA is obviously flawed as is Global but they do not share this quality.

To my mind, the only reason to grade a card is to sell it for more money, That is assuming you know what you have and trust the person or people from whom you acquired the merchandise. Ebay obviously brings along a new set of problems but as knowledgable as members of this group are in ferreting out bad sellers, it seems to not be too terrible. I am speaking somewhat out of ignorance on the need for graded cards on ebay as I buy only a handful of items on ebay.

I write this not to cause any controversy but to make sure that the great and very knowledgable collectors on this board know what they are buying when they use a particular grading company.

Steve Verkman
Clean Sweep Auctions"

Im just trying to figure out what to make of all of this. Here is what I gather the opinions to be:

PSA - Good short term but possibly not long term; not a very nice looking slab
SGC - Nicest slab and historically consistent grading but new questions re management
GAI - Also nice looking slabs, consistent grading, but some quality issues - cards placed in miscut inserts causing excessive movement or slippage, etc.
BGS - Nice looking and secure slabs, but not a player in the vintage market, and overly tough grading standards.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

As noted in the previous email - BGS is tough on vintage cards - point me in the direction of their graded cards because they are probably the ones that I would like to own.

I'd rather have a vintage card that went through the scrutiny of a tough and consistent grader rather than a grader that doesn't know the material and doesn't really know what they are doing...

I realize that the above post was probably related to submissions and how a submitter might view the grading companies.

At this time it's still the same old game: Cards that are in a PSA holder sell better. SGC holders are nicer looking. I still don't think that either SGC or PSA know how to properly grade 19th century material.