Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[perezfan]

As for the code of silence... Mastro/Legendary also had lots of clout before law enforcement stepped in. Their take-down required a lot more than collectors' suspicions or complaints via online forums.

Hopefully a similar investigation can happen again (sooner rather than later). Hate to admit it, but perhaps our hobby needs a major shakedown every 5 years or so, just to keep things honest.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Mastro/Legendary also had lots of clout before law enforcement stepped in. Their take-down required a lot more than collectors' suspicions or complaints via online forums.

Hopefully a similar investigation can happen again (sooner rather than later). Hate to admit it, but perhaps our hobby needs a major shakedown every 5 years or so, just to keep things honest.

Sometimes that's the only way to stop bad behavior, agreed.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As for the code of silence... Mastro/Legendary also had lots of clout before law enforcement stepped in. Their take-down required a lot more than collectors' suspicions or complaints via online forums.

Hopefully a similar investigation can happen again (sooner rather than later). Hate to admit it, but perhaps our hobby needs a major shakedown every 5 years or so, just to keep things honest.

I would go with 5 years of major shakedowns to get the hobby clean first. Then every 5 years after that. IMHO, right now the bad sellers out number the good by a huge margin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Since the early 90s when I got back into collecting, and made lots of contacts and some friends with dealers, the identify of the major card doctors has been well known. I imagine it's the same on the modern side.

[kateighty]

Haven't logged in for quite some time but have still tried to keep up with the board (too lazy to deal with recovering my password). The guilt trips of "where are the other members?" worked so I'm back. That and I'm really bothered by all of the recent nonsense. Strength in numbers!

[robkas68]

I would dispute that the card doctors are widely known. They may be known in some advanced circles, but some of the individuals named have thousands of positive feedbacks on ebay meaning that there are lots of collectors that don’t know. I can say I did not know everyone on the list. I even made 3 purchases from one on the list (not Moser) (the 3 totaled $216 all bgs and may be fine, but who knows).

However, I am not sure knowing names helps that much. Twenty years ago you could just name the 10-12 dealers you would not do business with. Today with the internet and auction houses you are dealing with literally thousands of individuals. Outside the obvious, buyer beware, deal too good to be true, etc., there are only two defenses. The intermediaries (ebay, HA, REA, PWCC, etc.) and the TPGs. Only time will tell if any of the intermediaries are directly involved or just terribly indifferent. What is clear is the intermediaries and TPGs are not very good at their jobs right now. Eventually, if you are not good at your job, people find someone better at it.

Rob Kasenter

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by robkas68

I would dispute that the card doctors are widely known. They may be known in some advanced circles, but some of the individuals named have thousands of positive feedbacks on ebay meaning that there are lots of collectors that don’t know. I can say I did not know everyone on the list. I even made 3 purchases from one on the list (not Moser) (the 3 totaled $216 all bgs and may be fine, but who knows).

However, I am not sure knowing names helps that much. Twenty years ago you could just name the 10-12 dealers you would not do business with. Today with the internet and auction houses you are dealing with literally thousands of individuals. Outside the obvious, buyer beware, deal too good to be true, etc., there are only two defenses. The intermediaries (ebay, HA, REA, PWCC, etc.) and the TPGs. Only time will tell if any of the intermediaries are directly involved or just terribly indifferent. What is clear is the intermediaries and TPGs are not very good at their jobs right now. Eventually, if you are not good at your job, people find someone better at it.

Rob Kasenter

Fair enough, but the auction houses and ebay sellers who have taken their cards for years know damn well who they are, I believe. $$$$$ trumps all. There are plenty of enablers.

[The Nasty Nati]

I wonder if these trim doctors have any connection with the T206 auto frauds. And what ever happened to that?

[BobbyVCP]

Yes there are some bad people out there and they are known. But they have ways of getting around the system of course. I am sure they have lots of other people submitting for them. If they really want to stay in business there really is no stopping them.

The only way to stop them is the the TPG's have to do a better job and be stricter on their measurement standards. How hard is it to make up a metal jigs and if the card fits in it then it is too small and should not get a numerical grade. Seems to me that most of cards that just got by the TPG were mostly trimmed and cleaned up. I am willing to bet they did not even bother to measure them. Guess they never thought it possible that someone would need to trim down a modern card.

To many cards in the queue and not enough graders so they are being pushed to move the cards through the system as fast as they can. Sounds like steps are being missed and scandals are happening.

[swarmee]

Did VCP remove eBay buyer data recently? I know that information was helping the Blowout Detective Agency (BODA) connect some of these dots. If it's a temporary glitch, it would be nice to see it return.

[Mark17]

As a small-time collector, and far from an expert, the concern this thread raises for me is, how much of this stuff has been circulating for years, or decades? If it was as simple as avoiding certain sellers, that's easy enough. But with the frequency cards are sold and traded, I would guess even the most reputable dealers in the hobby sometimes sell, unknowingly, cards that have been worked on.

Because, how could they know the difference, especially if it had been graded and slabbed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

As a small-time collector, and far from an expert, the concern this thread raises for me is, how much of this stuff has been circulating for years, or decades? If it was as simple as avoiding certain sellers, that's easy enough. But with the frequency cards are sold and traded, I would guess even the most reputable dealers in the hobby sometimes sell, unknowingly, cards that have been worked on.

Because, how could they know the difference, especially if it had been graded and slabbed?

Yep. Huge problem for both honest dealers and collectors even those who like me try to do their diligence and exercise extreme caution with some sellers.