Mantle corking bats? Article on Yahoo Sports

[CMIZ5290]

I just read this and I can't believe I have never heard of this. Has anyone else heard about this, and more importantly, does anyone believe it?

[ctownboy]

I don't know if they knew it back then but they have found in the last 10 or 15 years that corking a bat does NOT help with added distance. In fact, it REDUCES the distance a baseball flies. So, the ONLY way I can think a cork bat would help is if there are runners on base, the outfield is playing deep and a hitter connects and the ball goes further than the infield but in front of the outfielder.

David

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I don't know if they knew it back then but they have found in the last 10 or 15 years that corking a bat does NOT help with added distance. In fact, it REDUCES the distance a baseball flies. So, the ONLY way I can think a cork bat would help is if there are runners on base, the outfield is playing deep and a hitter connects and the ball goes further than the infield but in front of the outfielder.

David

100%, corking bats does no help one bit, I know from experience

And I believe Sports Science did testing on it too

[tiger8mush]

i thought the idea on corking bats wasn't that it'd make the ball go a longer distance, but that it'd make the bat lighter while not losing distance. So you'd be able to get the bat around quicker, allowing the hitter extra time to "read" the pitch?

[Donscards]

Norm Cash stated before he died---he used a corked bat the entire 1961 season---needless to say, he led the league in hitting .361---so I would say it certainly does help the batter. I never heard the Mantle did it. Don

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

i thought the idea on corking bats wasn't that it'd make the ball go a longer distance, but that it'd make the bat lighter while not losing distance. So you'd be able to get the bat around quicker, allowing the hitter extra time to "read" the pitch?

Thats the biggest benefit, not any extra distance.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

i thought the idea on corking bats wasn't that it'd make the ball go a longer distance, but that it'd make the bat lighter while not losing distance. So you'd be able to get the bat around quicker, allowing the hitter extra time to "read" the pitch?

correct, also if you remember some guys used batteries in their bats, but leaving room inside. So when waiting for the pitch the battries were lower in the handle and when he swings they slide to the top. #1 bat is lighter as its hollowed out and #2 the batteries sliting to the top give the bat more weight when contact is made.

I wouldnt doubt Mick did that, why not. Most guys did everything they could to be better, He also did speed as most guys as well.

Players will always do what they can to get an advantage, in any sport, always have always will.

[Tanman7baseball]

I see the science being thrown around on this thread but has anyone played baseball in the last 10 years? The mechanics of the swing has changed tremendously since the 60s. Most hitters then were rotational hitters. Today the swing has changed to using your hands more than anything. The lower body obviously generates power but "staying though the ball" with your hands is what the key is. Using your lower half to extend your hands is what the lower body is used for mainly. The result is "back spin". Rotational hitters generally hit the balls with "front spin", which results in less carry. Perfect example of a recent rotational hitter was Jim Edmonds. These type of hitters rotate off the ball when swinging which disallows them to stay through the zone longer when hitting. Now Pujols is one of the greatest hitters of all time. Does he have incredible bat speed? Absolutely not, it is very average actually. But he stays in the zone with his swing better than anyone else.

Back to the topic about corked bats. The density of the bat is what determines weight. When the bat companies make their bats they take out moisture to decrease the weight. If you have a 34in/35oz bat it is denser than a 34in/32oz bat. If you have a 34in/34oz bat and cork the center to make it 32oz then you have the advantage of using a denser but lighter bat. Therefore, ADVANTAGE.

Sammy Sosa broke one of his bats back in the day and it happened to be corked. He said he used it in batting practice and it must of got mixed into his game bats. The reason he used it though was because he said it made him feel good during BP because he would smash the ball better...

[aabram23]

Quicker bat speed = further distance.

[Wite3]

Quicker bat speed does necessarily not equal more distance...physics has proved this...

F=ma

Force equals mass times acceleration. The force the batter is contacting the ball with does not necessarily go up. If the bat is reduced by 2 ounces, and the acceleration is increased by 2 mphs...really no difference.

Of course the above is a very simplified way of looking at it...you would also have to talk about torque on the bat head, the kind of wood, corking material, and glue used and their density and elasticity.

Hitter might gain a tiny bit of distance if they connect just right...

Joshua

[felada]

Your units are wrong. And mph is velocity not acceleration.

Originally Posted by Wite3

Quicker bat speed does necessarily not equal more distance...physics has proved this...

F=ma

Force equals mass times acceleration. The force the batter is contacting the ball with does not necessarily go up. If the bat is reduced by 2 ounces, and the acceleration is increased by 2 mphs...really no difference.

Of course the above is a very simplified way of looking at it...you would also have to talk about torque on the bat head, the kind of wood, corking material, and glue used and their density and elasticity.

Hitter might gain a tiny bit of distance if they connect just right...

Joshua

[Wite3]

okay...so I posted late at night and forgot about my units...it has been 25 years since i was in physics in college. Still think that a corked bat might cause negligible results though. I do agree that more control of the bat would create better contact but again...hard to measure.

As to Williams...he used a 33 ounce bat...about 2 ounces less than average of the time. Many people close to Williams and Williams himself often spoke about the swing and the eye as the key to their power. Williams generated torque and his eye was amazing. Watch Ruth, Williams, Ott, Gehrig, Mize, Mantle, and other hr hitters from that era. They often swung using whole body rotation generating bat speed, and torque.

Now watch Bonds, AROD, Ortiz, McGwire, Sosa, Fielder, Howard...they generate power mostly with upper body strength and even swing with just their hands. I am always amazed watching them hit homeruns at times. Griffey Jr was an exception in my mind and his power was generated with his smooth full body swing.

Also, lengths of bats matter as well...the lever affect does happen. It is easier to move a baseball with a longer bat than a shorter one. Anyone who hit a ball on the handle as opposed to the barrell can tell you this.

Type of wood is also important. How much the wood will indent and spring back before it reaches a breaking point is also a factor.

This is not to even talk about the ball and the elasticity of the ball, hitting it on the laces vs. the sweet spot, frictional, rotational mechanics of the ball, etc.

Physics has shown that swinging a heavier bat slightly faster is better than swinging a lighter bat much faster. There are some great articles on this...one found here.

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/batw8.html

Oh, btw, I did play baseball for ten years all the way through high school. I did have some experience with this. And just for honesty's sake... I used a 33 inch bat that weighed 33 ounces. I was not a power hitter at all...in fact, I barely hit period. I was used mostly as a fourth outfielder who could bunt, make contact with the ball, and walk.

Joshua

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Now watch Bonds, AROD, Ortiz, McGwire, Sosa, Fielder, Howard...they generate power mostly with upper body strength and even swing with just their hands. I am always amazed watching them hit homeruns at times. Griffey Jr was an exception in my mind and his power was generated with his smooth full body

Bonds had incredible hip rotation.. It may not have been as smooth and aesthetic to the eye Griffey, Will Clark, or even a Michael Tucker, but it was incredible. I do agree though, a lot of the big muscle guys just didn't/don't look like the guys you're talking about (and don't forget Joe D, his swing was amazing).. And many of their HR's, especially to the opposite field, are more heavily upper body generated. Some in the modern era that come mind who created amazing rotational (torque) with their legs/hips, into their upper bodies- Shawn Green, Josh Reddick, Ryan Braun, Bryce Harper, Ichiro (watch a BP), etc.

To add: per links I and Tiger8Mush posted above, you should get all the academic explanation necessary. The one that really jumped out at me is the comment that many many hits, being glancing blows, are hugely influenced by the angle at which the bat hits back, and whether this will create back spin and carry the ball further. This is definitely a factor and is not calculable using simply force/mass/acceleration equations.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by felada

Your units are wrong. And mph is velocity not acceleration.

And the formula that matters is K=1/2MVsquared(No superscript in this text editor) So long way Kinetic energy=half mass times velocity squared.

After that the elasticity of the ball and bat, and the angle of the impact come into play. Maybe the spring rate of the bat as it bends and springs back on impact -Maybe. I'm not sure the spring back is fast enough to give any energy back to the ball.

And no, I don't recall the formulas for most of that. I haven't used them in around 25 years. (There's also some very complex stuff involving the ball passing through the air that I've never really gotten the math for. I understand the concepts, but not the calculus)

Basically, yes, faster bat=more distance than heavier bat.
Unless you have slow hands like me, then the heavier bat is better.

Steve B

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Quicker bat speed does necessarily not equal more distance...physics has proved this...

F=ma

Force equals mass times acceleration. The force the batter is contacting the ball with does not necessarily go up. If the bat is reduced by 2 ounces, and the acceleration is increased by 2 mphs...really no difference.

Of course the above is a very simplified way of looking at it...you would also have to talk about torque on the bat head, the kind of wood, corking material, and glue used and their density and elasticity.

Hitter might gain a tiny bit of distance if they connect just right...

Joshua

Quicker swing speed plus hitting on the sweet spot gives you added distance. Ask any pro golfer. Hell, ask any golfer, period!

[the 'stache]

Anybody who has ever seen Mickey Mantle should laugh off the suggestion that he used a corked bat. The man was built like a Greek God, and didn't need any kind of help hitting a ball a country mile. He could roll out of bed in the morning on two hours of sleep, and hit a pitch 500 feet without even trying.

Ted Williams used a lighter bat than most power hitters in his day, as he was able to generate more bat speed with it. The man analyzed every aspect of hitting, and if he felt he was able to generate more power with a lighter bat, I'm inclined to believe him.

Yahoo Sports is trying to keep up with ESPN for the rights to be called the TMZ of sports journalism. I find their "reporting" to be less and less credible as time goes bye.

[itjclarke]

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/batw8.html

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/batw8.html

a couple of links found on the same site:

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/bat-moi.html

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/corkedbat.html

[aabram23]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Quicker bat speed does necessarily not equal more distance...physics has proved this...

F=ma

Force equals mass times acceleration. The force the batter is contacting the ball with does not necessarily go up. If the bat is reduced by 2 ounces, and the acceleration is increased by 2 mphs...really no difference.

Of course the above is a very simplified way of looking at it...you would also have to talk about torque on the bat head, the kind of wood, corking material, and glue used and their density and elasticity.

Hitter might gain a tiny bit of distance if they connect just right...

Joshua

Here's what I can tell you. You're obviously much smarter than I am but this doesn't come from any book or science show. It comes from actual experience on a baseball field.

If you can lighten a bat 2 oz. your gain of bat speed will be much much greater than 2 mph.

Also with a lighter bat you have more control so you can hit it "just right" more often.

[deadballfreaK]

Do you suppose a person selling a Mantle bat might come up with something to spur interest in the auction? More likely to me that someone would take a legit Mantle bat and cork it to make money. I saw Mickey play. He could have taken a 3 foot 2 by 4 up there and hit it over the fence.

[HRBAKER]

Is it that hard to believe that Mantle corked his bat?

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Is it that hard to believe that Mantle corked his bat?

Not if you think about it logically but too many people think the old time players were pure and good and would just never do anything bad. I dont know if he ever did or not but to completely dismiss it is just romanticizing the man.

[deadballfreaK]

The guys been dead for 18 years and hasn't swung a bat in 45. I'm a Yankee hater, but Mick was a great player and I can't understand anyone at this late date trying to make him out as a cheater when he's not here to defend himself. Maybe Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and Sibbi Sisti used corked bats. Maybe Warren Spahn threw a spitball. Maybe your grandma cheated on your grandpa. Seems like someone got a sensational story and someone will make money out of it selling the bat. If it works we'll see more of the same.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

The guys been dead for 18 years and hasn't swung a bat in 45. I'm a Yankee hater, but Mick was a great player and I can't understand anyone at this late date trying to make him out as a cheater when he's not here to defend himself. Maybe Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and Sibbi Sisti used corked bats. Maybe Warren Spahn threw a spitball. Maybe your grandma cheated on your grandpa. Seems like someone got a sensational story and someone will make money out of it selling the bat. If it works we'll see more of the same.

Or maybe Mantle corked a bat and someone discovered it. That would be news in my book. If someone is no longer alive then you can't report news about them? I've got no dog in the fight, and could care less if he did or didn't.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

The guys been dead for 18 years and hasn't swung a bat in 45. I'm a Yankee hater, but Mick was a great player and I can't understand anyone at this late date trying to make him out as a cheater when he's not here to defend himself. Maybe Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and Sibbi Sisti used corked bats. Maybe Warren Spahn threw a spitball. Maybe your grandma cheated on your grandpa. Seems like someone got a sensational story and someone will make money out of it selling the bat. If it works we'll see more of the same.

Very well said!

I just can't believe that some people are trying to besmirch Mantle now in 2013. Maybe he did use a corked bat, maybe he didn't. Maybe it helped him, maybe it didn't.

Does anybody who has seen Mantle play, be it in person, on television, or for my generation, on tape, seriously think that Mick needed help hitting the ball out of the park? If a corked bat helped him (and that is a big if to me), how much distance did he really get from it? Or how much additional bat speed did he realize from a lighter bat weight? The guy nearly hit the ball out of Yankee stadium. Let me repeat that. He nearly hit the damned ball out of Yankee Stadium. He also hit the facade of the upper deck in right field. Before I hurt my back, I was a pretty damned good hitter. I could have hit the ball three times, and the combined distance of the three fly balls wouldn't have gotten the ball up there.

I don't care who you are. The average man, hell, the best baseball players today couldn't hit it that far. Load them up with every steroid on the planet. Work them out until their biceps are the size of Minnie Minoso. Give them a brand spanking new Louisville Slugger. They're not hitting the ball up there.

While I respect the Yankee legacy, I am not a Yankee fan per se. But anybody suggesting that Mantle somehow achieved his home run prowess from a corked bat is a few playing cards short of a deck. As far as pure power goes, Mantle is top 5 to ever play the game. If he'd been healthy during his career, and didn't play with the thought of "hey, you'll be dead by 45" floating around in the back of his head, Bonds, Aaron, Mays et all would be looking at a pretty much unattainable career home run record.

I love Hank Aaron. He remains one of my favorite human beings. But he would be the first to tell you that for pure home run power, he couldn't have competed with Mantle. Hitting the ball out of the park is one thing. Hitting a moon shot that could come down in Brooklyn is an altogether different thing.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

Do you suppose a person selling a Mantle bat might come up with something to spur interest in the auction? More likely to me that someone would take a legit Mantle bat and cork it to make money.

Ken, I never saw Mantle play, but I thought the same thing when I read the article. Just because there is a Mantle bat with cork in it, does not mean it was there when he owned the bat.

[shelly]

During the 54 season Al Rosen's bat flew apart. He had nails in it. I think corking came later.
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19540520&id..

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by brob28

Ken, I never saw Mantle play, but I thought the same thing when I read the article. Just because there is a Mantle bat with cork in it, does not mean it was there when he owned the bat.

Exactly!!

[the 'stache]

Good post, Craig.

Again, I don't know what Mick did or did not do. All I'm saying is this article does nothing to diminish Mantle's accomplishments in my mind, even if he did try a corked bat later in his career.

I have HBO's Mantle documentary "save until I delete" on my DVR (which means it's there until they pry the remote out of my cold, dead hands). I never had the pleasure of seeing him in person, but knowing what I do about baseball, I can say categorically that Mantle did not need a cork in his bat to hit home runs.

[Bocabirdman]

Of course, the difference is that Mantle emptied the bottles that the corks came out of, the night before using the bat.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Of course, the difference is that Mantle emptied the bottles that the corks came out of, the night before using the bat.

ROFL!!!

IMO I could care less if he did or didnt, he was still awesome. Every player pushes to the edge (and sometimes over it) to get a leg up on the rest when compeating. This is the highest level of sport. From scuffing balls, spitters, corking bats, using speed, coke, red bull, stearoids, HGH and what ever drug is next. Always happened always will.