Wainwright in the hall?

[todeen]

Originally Posted by G1911

As for Yadier, I don't expect catchers to perform as well as 1B but a negative OPS+ is rare for a HOFer. Those are usually the guys everyone considers a mistake. I can think of only one catcher elected to the hall mostly or entirely for his defense, and that's Ray Schalk, who is derided. There's probably one or more two more, as well as 1 or 2 mysteries as to why they were elected at all.



I'm not sure that it should be this way, that we should weigh the bat so heavily for catchers, shortstops, that we shouldn't have defense only or mostly guys. There's a SS or two, Schalk, Mazeroski (also lambasted), Brooks was glove first but hit some big counting stat milestones with the bat and was slightly over league average.



42 WAR over 19 years is really bad when it comes to the Hall. He has 2 seasons over a 3.2, and 4 seasons from 3-3.2. So pretty much all of his career he was 0-3 wins by their accounting, if one is a WAR ranker. That's giving him an offensive bonus simply for even existing as a catcher, and then another bonus for his fieldwork every year. His bat is worth almost nothing.



He's passed 2,000 hits, by playing for 19 years, which has value. Longevity is worth a lot. It's not typically HOF material in itself. That's the closest he comes to a meritous traditional stat.





Posada is underrated historically, but I think also pushing it. He's got the bat to squeak in but wasn't worth much behind the plate. Posey, I am sure will make it but I am not really supportive of. 1,500 hits for a player primarily being elected as a contact hitter (yes he's a good glove, good framer, and 19 home runs a year isn't bad at all for a catcher, but his primary selling point is contact hitting) is very weak. His career is just so brief it's hard to put him in for what he actually did.

I give leeway to catchers for the wear and tear of a career. It's physically demanding on parts of the body that other fielding positions don't touch. So I give bigger points to longevity for a catcher that can play the position consistently. I know leadership has been greatly diminished, but catchers on these elite teams (Yankees, Cardinals, SF, etc) bring something special that supports the team year in and year out. Most people can name the catchers on these elite teams that were competitive for a decade. Posey, Yadi, and Jorge are always in these conversations.

On a different note, I also feel that our collective standards for the HOF have lagged behind the changing use of players. It's a big problem for pitchers, and it's a problem for catchers to. My best example is Felix Hernandez. He should be a HOF, having his career stats sabotaged by horrendous play of a terrible organization.

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[G1911]

Originally Posted by todeen

I give leeway to catchers for the wear and tear of a career. It's physically demanding on parts of the body that other fielding positions don't touch. So I give bigger points to longevity for a catcher that can play the position consistently. I know leadership has been greatly diminished, but catchers on these elite teams (Yankees, Cardinals, SF, etc) bring something special that supports the team year in and year out. Most people can name the catchers on these elite teams that were competitive for a decade. Posey, Yadi, and Jorge are always in these conversations.

On a different note, I also feel that our collective standards for the HOF have lagged behind the changing use of players. It's a big problem for pitchers, and it's a problem for catchers to. My best example is Felix Hernandez. He should be a HOF, having his career stats sabotaged by horrendous play of a terrible organization.

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Longevity is worth a lot. I do not think that playing 19 years is enough to merit the hall of fame. Are Bob Boone and Jason Kendall hall of famers? You get points for being there, but there has to be something more than just being there too. Even the Hall's greatest compilers have more highlights (measured in their own, objective performance) than Yadier. Excellent glove, always there, below league average bat.

Being on a good team is, I think, no reason to elect anyone. The Hall is an individual achievement.

[ALR-bishop]

Maybe Molina and Wainwright can be nominated together as a battery