Need help dating mounted photo...

[Matthew H]

...please

I had a friend tell me it was baseball, I had originally thought it was cricket... Now I'm trying to figure out how old it is. The size seems unusual, 6 1/2" x 8 1/2". It is albumen. The black mount has gilded edges. Thanks for your help!

[drc]

Very late 1880s to 1890s. Good guess is 1890s. The black colored mount is the key.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by drc

Very late 1880s to 1890s. Good guess is 1890s. The black colored mount is the key.

Thanks David!

[drc]

P.s. It looks like baseball to me.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by drc

P.s. It looks like baseball to me.

I believe so too. I didn't know at first, the formation looked funky.

[prewarsports]

I bet it dates before 1890. I would say early to mid 1880's. If it were mine I would describe it as c. 1885 and you would be right there! Cool image.

Rhys

[Runscott]

If you knew the real answer, and I had to bet, I'd put money on 1890's. The black mount and gilded edges are tell-tale signs. I think the fact that it looks like an ancient ball-game makes people overlook the mount characteristics.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If you knew the real answer, and I had to bet, I'd put money on 1890's. The black mount and gilded edges are tell-tale signs. I think the fact that it looks like an ancient ball-game makes people overlook the mount characteristics.

There are quite a few 1880s Goodwin & Co. cdv's that have black mounts and gilded edges.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

There are quite a few 1880s Goodwin & Co. cdv's that have black mounts and gilded edges.

Not this kind of black mount.

[Matthew H]

Thanks guys, the more I look at it the more I like it.. Is the size unusual?

[Runscott]

Matt - I don't think so, but the gilded edges mean it was likely a 'standard' size, which might yield more clues as to age. I don't know the standard mount-size year ranges, but Rhys probably does.

To me it's odd that the print was not cut with clean edges, yet is on a gilded-edge mount (disorder and order mixed). Not sure what all that means, other than dating is difficult. It could be an older print re-glued onto a newer mount. The print looks older than the mount to me, but I might have different opinions of either or both if I had it in hand.

[Matthew H]

Thanks Scott, I knew a narrow date range will be tough because it's so generic.

Another interesting note; the guy standing at first base(?) and far back near the tree in the center, both appear to be African-American under my loupe.

[Matthew H]

This guy under the tree and possibly the two women in the window.

[Matthew H]

_

[aquarius31]

Hi Matt,
That's a very neat photo! Is there any sort of writing on the back of the mount or anywhere else to indicate possible photo location? I don't know if the buildings in the background are unique or not but may be one option to determine age. I know this is a stretch to say the least but have had some success on older photos where there have been page notations for example.

[Matthew H]

Thanks George, the back is blank (not black, just raw cardboard).

[aquarius31]

Thanks Matt...figured I'd ask anyway. I'm continuing to fixate on the main building in the background as well as the surrounding buildings. From your close-up pictures of the players they certainly don't appear to be school children and I would think that a town team would not have such a well groomed field. I know your original question was the photo dates and the experts here have already spoken. Just more curious about whether this could be a college setting. Regardless it's a great photo!

P.S. - Please tell me that there's not a lady in white peering out of the upper window

George, I, too, am fixated on that building in the background. I know I have seen it before. Looks a lot like Willamette College in Salem, Oregon, or very similar to it. Quite a few 1890-1900 photos from Willamette were up for sale last year with similar black backgrounds. Here's a PC to compare (possibly middle building):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Salem-OR-Wil...item53f1fadea9

Nevermind, looks like building is two stories and one in PC is three/maybe four. I am sure I have seen that building somewhere

[smokelessjoe]

Matt,

Great photo! I think it is quite interesting... I am surprised to see the ball field featured so prominently in front of the buildings... Its like if you drove up to this place you would have no choice but to walk across the ball field. Certainly not going miss the fact that "baseball is played here"...

Also, it looks like there is some writing on the wooden box that is at the end of the path that leads from the building. Looks like I can make out the number "3" ??? Perhaps through a loupe you can read more?

I am intrigued as well by the wooden plank "back stop" - can you post a close up scan of it? (on the left side of the photo)

If that is what it is... Imo certainly lends itself to some serious ball playing

Shawn

[Matthew H]

Hi Shawn, here is the "backstop", I didn't think much about it before, thanks.

George, not a woman in white, just another window!

Sorry, I have a really crappy scanner, super blurry. Also, I can't read anything on that table, it's too distant.

[drc]

1800s black mounts usually date to the 1890s, though there are a few examples from the late 1880s. The black mount Old Judge cabinets being the already stated examples.

It's larger than cabinet size and, all other qualities (including image subject) being the same, larger is better for 1800s photos. Larger means rarer and more displayable.

Photo mounts were mostly factory made and had specific colors and other physical qualities to different time periods. That's how you can date a photo by the mount color, thickness, embossment etc. You won't find an 1863 Robert E. Lee cabinet card with a black mount. It's like dating an antique car by its form and style. In dating a photo, you also look at the image-- as the uniform etc is important-- but the mount says a lot.

[prewarsports]

There is no way to concretely tell but Black Mounts were widely used in the 1880's as well (even the EARLY 1880s), but certainly MORE popular in the 1890's. I have attached a scan of an 1883 Wesleyan Football Team photo which is on a gilded black mount to show that they were indeed available and widely used. Once again though I am not arguing at all with the others on here as there are probably 50 black mounts from the 1890's for every one from the 1880's, I personally feel that the way the men are dressed combined with the look of the albumem part of that photograph dates to the 1880's but that is just my opinion and there is no way to tell, I could be wrong just as easily as I could be right but that is just what my gut tells me.

Rhys

[GaryPassamonte]

Here is a mid 1870s black mounted CdV with gilded edges. The 1875 Hartford CdV also has a black mount.

[smokelessjoe]

Thanks for posting that Gary & Rhys... I have seen others as well...

Matt,

Have you looked closely at the back? Sometimes if you hold it just right or tilt it just right - you will find something lightly embossed... Not often, but every once in awhile...

[Matthew H]

Thank you all for your help- Gary, Rhys, very cool items!

Shawn, I'm not home right now but I'm pretty sure there is nothing on the back, it's a very generic mount.

[drc]

No rules are absolute. Collecting is about finding exceptions. The black and gold trimmed mount on the 1870s payer photo is very much a later style. Popular in the 1890s.

I believe 1885 as a date was mentioned. The Old Judge cabinets can date to 1887, and 1885 is only two years earlier. I would never say its impossible to find an 1885 black mount. In fact, I don't know the specific year when black mounts hit the market.

The 1875 Hartford is an odd ball. The mounting is strikingly unusual for the period.

And, in conclusion, I'd still best guess the original photo in this thread is from the 1890s. Other points made didn't alter change my opinion. It's like if people discussed how cricket or whatever ever played on a similar field as in the photo and I'd say "Those are valid points, but I still think it's baseball."