450 HR and counting and really not so good

[Peter_Spaeth]

452 HR, only 53rd all time right fielder by JAWS LOL -- Nelson Cruz.

[clydepepper]

and then there were these:

Adam Dunn 462HR 17.9WAR

Dave Kingman 442HR 17.3WAR

Carlos Degado 473HR 44.4WAR

[clydepepper]

.983 fielding average may have something to do with it

[mrreality68]

Had a good career not great and not HOF material.

Many great moments but a modern day Adam Dunn

And only 4 seasons I believe over 100 rbi. And 0 season with over 100 runs

[cgjackson222]

Defense matters: a list of some sluggers with low dWAR (as per baseball reference) and its effect on total WAR.

dWAR /oWAR / Total WAR

Note the similarity between Nelson Cruz and Jose Canseco.

Adam Dunn: -28.4 / 35.3 / 17.9 (462 HRs)
Gary Sheffield: -27.7 / 80.7 / 60.5 (509 HRs)
Dave Winfield: -22.7 / 74.1 / 64.2 (465 HRs)
Frank Thomas: -22.5 / 80.4 / 73.8 (521 HRs)
Manny Ramirez: -21.7 / 81.8 / 69.3 (555 HRs)
Willie McCovey: -21.6 / 72 / 64.5 (521 HRs)
David Ortiz: -20.9 / 56.7 / 55.3 (541 HRs)
Miguel Cabrera: -20.7 / 77.3 / 67.0 (507 HRs)
Prince Fielder: -20.5 / 34.1 / 23.8 (319 HRs)
Jason Giambi: -19.7 / 58.4 / 50.5 (440 HRs)
Willie Stargell: -19.5 / 64.2 / 47.6 (475 HRs)
Harmon Killebrew: -18.7 / 71.5 / 60.4 (573 HRs)
Billy Williams: -18.0 / 66.5 / 63.6 (426 HRs)
Paul Konerko: -17.7 / 33.1 / 28.1 (439 HRs)
Fred McGriff: -17.3 / 56.2 / 52.6 (493 HRs)
Carlos Delgado: -17.2 / 50.8 / 44.4 (473 HRs)
Dave Kingman: -16.7 / 23.2 / 17.3 (442 HRs)
Reggie Jackson: -16.4 / 77.2 / 73.9 (563 HRs)
Jim Thome: -16.4 / 77.7 / 73.1 (612 HRs)
Dante Bichette: -16.2 / 15.1 / 5.6 WAR (274 HRs)
Joe Carter: -15.7 / 28.2 / 19.5 (396 HRs)
Edwin Encarnacion: -15.1 / 42.3 / 35.5 (424 HRs)
Nelson Cruz: -14.5 / 44.0 / 42.5 (462 HRs)
Jose Canseco: -13.8 / 45.9 / 42.4 (462 HRs)
Ted Williams: -13.3 / 125.1 / 121.8 (521 HRs)
Mark McGwire: -12.2 / 65.4 / 62.2 (583 HRs)
Cecil Fielder: -12.2 / 20.3 / 17.2 (319 HRs)
Ralph Kiner: -10.7 / 52.9 / 48 (369 HRs)

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Defense matters: a list of some sluggers with low dWAR (as per baseball reference) and its effect on total WAR.

dWAR /oWAR / Total WAR

Note the similarity between Nelson Cruz and Jose Canseco.

Adam Dunn: -28.4 / 35.3 / 17.9 (462 HRs)
Gary Sheffield: -27.7 / 80.7 / 60.5 (509 HRs)
Dave Winfield: -22.7 / 74.1 / 64.2 (465 HRs)
Frank Thomas: -22.5 / 80.4 / 73.8 (521 HRs)
Manny Ramirez: -21.7 / 81.8 / 69.3 (555 HRs)
Willie McCovey: -21.6 / 72 / 64.5 (521 HRs)
David Ortiz: -20.9 / 56.7 / 55.3 (541 HRs)
Miguel Cabrera: -20.7 / 77.3 / 67.0 (507 HRs)
Prince Fielder: -20.5 / 34.1 / 23.8 (319 HRs)
Jason Giambi: -19.7 / 58.4 / 50.5 (440 HRs)
Willie Stargell: -19.5 / 64.2 / 47.6 (475 HRs)
Harmon Killebrew: -18.7 / 71.5 / 60.4 (573 HRs)
Billy Williams: -18.0 / 66.5 / 63.6 (426 HRs)
Paul Konerko: -17.7 / 33.1 / 28.1 (439 HRs)
Fred McGriff: -17.3 / 56.2 / 52.6 (493 HRs)
Carlos Delgado: -17.2 / 50.8 / 44.4 (473 HRs)
Dave Kingman: -16.7 / 23.2 / 17.3 (442 HRs)
Reggie Jackson: -16.4 / 77.2 / 73.9 (563 HRs)
Jim Thome: -16.4 / 77.7 / 73.1 (612 HRs)
Dante Bichette: -16.2 / 15.1 / 5.6 WAR (274 HRs)
Joe Carter: -15.7 / 28.2 / 19.5 (396 HRs)
Edwin Encarnacion: -15.1 / 42.3 / 35.5 (424 HRs)
Nelson Cruz: -14.5 / 44.0 / 42.5 (462 HRs)
Jose Canseco: -13.8 / 45.9 / 42.4 (462 HRs)
Ted Williams: -13.3 / 125.1 / 121.8 (521 HRs)
Mark McGwire: -12.2 / 65.4 / 62.2 (583 HRs)
Cecil Fielder: -12.2 / 20.3 / 17.2 (319 HRs)
Ralph Kiner: -10.7 / 52.9 / 48 (369 HRs)

Great info and lost. Amazed at some on that list

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Great info and lost. Amazed at some on that list

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

Jim Kaat won a Gold Glove in 1969 with a fielding percentage of 0.826. I suspect fielding awards have more to do with flash than fundamentals. And, advanced analytics haven't necessarily improved the Gold Glove awards in that regard. See "Jeter, Derek."

[todeen]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Jim Kaat won a Gold Glove in 1969 with a fielding percentage of 0.826. I suspect fielding awards have more to do with flash than fundamentals. And, advanced analytics haven't necessarily improved the Gold Glove awards in that regard. See "Jeter, Derek."

Derek Jeter was still before advanced analytics took over baseball. You would want to cite an example of someone after 2005 I would presume. As an avid fan, that is roughly the year I remember new terms coming into use that I couldn't calculate or completely comprehend. But they still hadn't overtaken the old school BBWA voters who were the ones casting votes.

The change coincides with moneyball analytics that occurred in the early 2000s.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[jayshum]

Interesting that total WAR is not just oWAR + dWAR. Can anyone explain how it's calculated?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Interesting that total WAR is not just oWAR + dWAR. Can anyone explain how it's calculated?

"oWAR looks to calculate a player’s offensive contribution alone, completely removing his fielding. It does adjust for position, however, which can make a big impact. Meanwhile, dWAR compares a player’s defensive efforts to a league-average fielder, again adjusting for position.

Though oWAR and dWAR do isolate the two halves of bWAR, they cannot be summed to reach the overall figure. There are a lot of minor intangibles that are too particular to dive into here, but the basic roadblock is the positional adjustment. bWAR, oWAR, and dWAR all incorporate some sort of adjustment for position, making it possible to compare shortstops to first baseman. But because oWAR and dWAR both include an adjustment, summing them would double the magnitude of this factor as compared to bWAR."

https://www.blessyouboys.com/2019/1/...ment-bwar-fwar

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

"oWAR looks to calculate a player’s offensive contribution alone, completely removing his fielding. It does adjust for position, however, which can make a big impact. Meanwhile, dWAR compares a player’s defensive efforts to a league-average fielder, again adjusting for position.

Though oWAR and dWAR do isolate the two halves of bWAR, they cannot be summed to reach the overall figure. There are a lot of minor intangibles that are too particular to dive into here, but the basic roadblock is the positional adjustment. bWAR, oWAR, and dWAR all incorporate some sort of adjustment for position, making it possible to compare shortstops to first baseman. But because oWAR and dWAR both include an adjustment, summing them would double the magnitude of this factor as compared to bWAR."

https://www.blessyouboys.com/2019/1/...ment-bwar-fwar

Good summation. It's also the reason Mike Trout can catch 3 routine fly balls in Centerfield and his dWAR score goes up, and why Don Mattingly can scoop 3 badly thrown balls out of the dirt at 1st Base, and his dWAR score goes down.

dWAR is vicious with 1st Basemen and Right Fielders.

I think Defensive WAR is much harder to quantify then offensive WAR.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by todeen

Derek Jeter was still before advanced analytics took over baseball. You would want to cite an example of someone after 2005 I would presume.

If you are going to limit it to 2005 or after, then I would cite as an example Derek Jeter, who won 4 of his 5 Gold Gloves in 2005 or later.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Good summation. It's also the reason Mike Trout can catch 3 routine fly balls in Centerfield and his dWAR score goes up, and why Don Mattingly can scoop 3 badly thrown balls out of the dirt at 1st Base, and his dWAR score goes down.

dWAR is vicious with 1st Basemen and Right Fielders.

I think Defensive WAR is much harder to quantify then offensive WAR.

Yeah, its extremely difficult to have a positive dWAR as a first baseman or right fielder--Keith Hernandez, who many consider to be the greatest fielding first baseman ever has a career dWAR of 1.3.

Roberto Clemente, widely considered the greatest fielding right fielder ever has a career dWAR of only 12.2. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Reggie Jackson, Tony Gwynn, Vlad Guerrero, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Paul Waner, and Bryce Harper all have negative dWAR, many of them by double digits.

And yeah, I think its harder to measure dWAR than oWAR.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

I very much agree with you 7 Gold Gloves and that DWAR very surprising.

[Seven]

I'm not sure how accurate dWAR is, but what I do know was that Jeter at his best, was a slightly above average shortstop. His range did him no favors. His oWAR is above a 90 while his dWAR is well into the negatives. Gold Glove, seemed to become the celebrity award. I believe Palmero won a GG at first base, despite spending most of one season, at DH.

Also looking at the list a few posts above, really makes you wonder about certain players. Imagine if Ted Williams was a plus fielder? Would've probably gone down as the greatest player ever.

[D. Bergin]

Jeter passed the eye test, and made some spectacular and high IQ plays in high leverage situations, that you don't really see other shortstops make.

His jump throw to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible while running towards the 3rd base line was a thing of beauty when it worked, but largely unnecessary. Other, more technically sound shortstops would simply take an extra fraction of a second to plant their right foot and then whip a bullet across the diamond instead.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApoJk9X7Vto

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Seven

Also looking at the list a few posts above, really makes you wonder about certain players. Imagine if Ted Williams was a plus fielder? Would've probably gone down as the greatest player ever.

Ted Williams is tied for 7th all time in offensive WAR: https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

He is well behind Mays in oWAR, and of course way behind him in total WAR. I am surprised Ted is only tied with Tris Speaker in oWAR. Of course Tris Speaker didn't miss a bunch of years because of actual Wars.

But no one holds a candle to Babe Ruth in total WAR. Apparently Babe Ruth wasn't a bad fielder, as his dWAR is only slightly negative (-2.3).

[Peter_Spaeth]

dWAR
Good god, y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

[G1911]

I do not understand the WAR obsession (I have yet to find anyone on a forum who actually knows its full equation and what exactly it is they are agreeing is all or mostly weighted correctly), but dWAR is borderline junk before 2003 and is based on estimates of a players career rates of outs to a position to credit hit allocation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least for the more vintage players, we really must go by what John Updike called "the witness of the eyes."

[mrreality68]

To much stats and different type of stats.

I agree with using it but can never forget the good all eye test as mentioned earlier.

[packs]

I thought Delgado was a pretty fierce player in his prime. Not as good as Vlad overall but I don’t think Delgado was cheating and was probably overshadowed by the steroid era. He drove in 130 or more RBIs three times. Not a lot other guys doing that without some help.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

I thought Delgado was a pretty fierce player in his prime. Not as good as Vlad overall but I don’t think Delgado was cheating and was probably overshadowed by the steroid era. He drove in 130 or more RBIs three times. Not a lot other guys doing that without some help.

I don't think Delgado is a HOFer but he definitely should have received more consideration, he should not have been one and done

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I don't think Delgado is a HOFer but he definitely should have received more consideration, he should not have been one and done

You could argue he's not that different from Rice, Perez, Cepeda, maybe Dawson.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I don't think Delgado is a HOFer but he definitely should have received more consideration, he should not have been one and done

Delgado got robbed. He’s around the border, probably on the no side of it, but 1 ballot was not an honest evaluation of him. Little less ridiculous than Lofton falling off immediately but not by much. If the roiders (sans Ortiz, who may do whatever he wishes free of accountability) are to be kept out, but we also keep out the guys a notch below the roiders, there’s not much left to induct. Pretty similar to McGriff. He deserved a sincere look.

[packs]

I think he just got lost in the steroid shuffle. He put up a monster year in 2000 hitting 344 driving in 137 runs with an absurd 181 OPS+ but Giambi won. Then he finished 2nd in 2003 driving in 145 runs and leading he league in OPS and OPS+ but lost to A Rod. I wouldn’t find him out of place in the Hall if like you said guys like Rice and Dawson are in.