Jacob deGrom most Ks in first 200 games

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

Yes. Hence why I contextualized "in the current sense" as the job is markedly different.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. Hence why I contextualized "in the current sense" as the job is markedly different.

They just closed a bigger opening, or something like that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe in the future, as has been speculated already by some here although they may have been facetious, we will have an opener instead of a starter -- a guy whose job is to pitch the first inning.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe in the future, as has been speculated already by some here although they may have been facetious, we will have an opener instead of a starter -- a guy whose job is to pitch the first inning.

I would think the long term path is that no pitcher will throw more than 3 innings at most, because the data suggests effectiveness recedes every time a hitter sees the same pitcher again that day. I don't doubt that this is true and that the new ways are more objectively efficient to producing wins in context than the old ways, but it's not as fun, personally.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would think the long term path is that no pitcher will throw more than 3 innings at most, because the data suggests effectiveness recedes every time a hitter sees the same pitcher again that day. I don't doubt that this is true and that the new ways are more objectively efficient to producing wins in context than the old ways, but it's not as fun, personally.

But isn't that offset by the fact that your starter is a better pitcher than the journeyman who replaces him? I admit not to knowing the data, but I can't believe it would pay to yank Pedro Martinez in the 4th in factor of some fungible castoff.

[packs]

You'd have to expand rosters too. I believe there's a limit of 13 pitchers right now.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But isn't that offset by the fact that your starter is a better pitcher than the journeyman who replaces him? I admit not to knowing the data, but I can't believe it would pay to yank Pedro Martinez in the 4th in factor of some fungible castoff.

Yes, and no. Most relievers are failed starters, yet they produce better ERA's than most starting pitchers largely because of this factor; they present a change to the batter that requires adjustment, can go all out, and don't have to think about anything but throwing to just a handful of guys. Even the best pitchers in baseball are allowed to throw less and less innings every single year. Only 4 pitchers reached 200 innings, because even the best are less effective with every round through the batting order, and they are pulled earlier and earlier for an assortment of journeyman, specialists, and context-depending relievers that excel in certain situations.

Of course, things are a little different if you're looking at a guy like Pedro whose a generational talent and possibly the most dominant pitcher of all time. The very best might get to go twice through the order, but the trend of the last 70 years of decreasing pitching time and using more pitchers for this reason seems to me almost inevitable that it will eventually reach its ultimate logical conclusion. My money is on that rosters will keep expanding, and the data analytics will only take over the remaining bits of the game it hasn't already.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They just closed a bigger opening, or something like that.

I think the old relievers produced much, much more value to their teams, just as old starters did. Marshall hurled more innings than any starter does today. It's hard to produce true value on par with the older guys when they are allowed to throw so little these days. Marshall, Gossage, Lyle, none of them were middle relievers in any real sense.

[Snapolit1]

If you look at the body of work DeGrom has put up the last few years, wins aside because the Mets have not supported him to a staggering degree, he is the single most dominant force probably since Koufax. I mean he comes back this year in his second start and nearly throws 6 perfect innings, striking out 12 of 17 batters he faced. And presumably not up to 100% strength. Crazy.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you look at the body of work DeGrom has put up the last few years, wins aside because the Mets have not supported him to a staggering degree, he is the single most dominant force probably since Koufax. I mean he comes back this year in his second start and nearly throws 6 perfect innings, striking out 12 of 17 batters he faced. And presumably not up to 100% strength. Crazy.

it is amazing how few games he has 'won' considering how good he is...

jose fernandez won like 17 of 19 games at home at some point on terrible marlins teams......even last place teams on the days their stud pitcher is pitching are considered playoff teams for that day.

[clydepepper]

Segwaying back to my weighty note on Vogelbach...I identify with both he and Big Sexy as I'm 6-1, 325 myself.

I'm so glad Bartolo hit his Dinger before quit letting pitcher hit...perhaps that was why?



I Can't go to the beach for two reasons:

People gather on my shady side

and

Saying, 'Hurry! He can't breath!' - they try to push me back into the water.



Thank you very much...I'll be here all week...be sure to tip your waitresses.


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