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#1
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In looking around for "new" variations, I noticed these two cards and was wondering if either would be a variation or if they are simply one off print defects.
The first is a 61 Topps #299 Clay Dalrymple with a "black hat". The second is a 63 Topps Dennis Menke with a yellow print line to the right of the inset photo. |
#2
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Saved---for whatever my view is worth, I think the Menke is a print defect. There are numerous similar print overuns in every Topps set. On the other hand PSA seems to think a similar print defect on the back of the 1961 Fairly is a variation
The 1961 Dalrymple is something else. If the black out was on the original card and not added after the printing process, it would seem to be an intentional change to the regular card and thus, in my view, a variation. Never seen one like it. And since he did not change teams in 60-61-62---it would seem unlikely Topps would make such a change Last edited by ALR-bishop; 02-06-2013 at 04:39 PM. |
#3
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Menke is a print defect.
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#4
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Thanks guys for the info. Al, I figured that if you had not seen either of these cards as a variation, that the likelihood of them being a variation was slim.
The 61 card is tough to tell at what point in the process the black was added to the cap Thanks again |
#5
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I would like to see a scan of the entire Dalrymple card.
Doug |
#6
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Doug, here is an image of the entire card...please let me know what you think. Thanks
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#7
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Are you sure that some kid didn't magic marker up that hat?? Or is it actually printed on the original card right from the factory?
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land ![]() https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. ![]() |
#8
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I do not have the Clay D card in hand...in a different forum, I was discussing collecting variations with the owner when he shared with me these scans and OKd sharing them here. He tells me that the black on the hat appears to be part of the original printing process for this card, which would seemingly rule out the marker directly on the card itself. But again, I am also going by just the scans myself. Both Al and Doug seem to have infinite knowledge of these types of variations, so their opinions (as well as all others) are very welcomed.
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#9
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There are 45 1961 C.Dalrymple cards on eBay an none of them have that black hat.
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#10
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I agree with the magic marker theory.
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#11
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To me it certainly looks to have been added post-production. You can readily make out the dot patterns in both his face and in the background sky to the red edge around the cap, then they are obliterated. The small red streaks in the cap make it almost look like a scratch-off, and are evidence to me of someone's later-added "artwork".
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld. If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#12
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I knew I had seen a card with a similar amount of work done to a hat, and I finally found it , the 67 #51 Astros rookies card. Bales' hat looks very similar to the 61 Clay D card. All of the examples I have of this card are all the same, so it is clearly a card Topps issued this way
Also, my understanding is that the the dot patterns are only found on the photo part of the card and are not present on the borders, print, or even part of the photo that has been "adjusted" by Topps. A close look at the 67 #51 shows no dot patterns on the colored part of Bales' hat, while the rest of the image (including the top portion of the hat that Topps missed) does have a dot pattern. |
#13
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In the words of Arte Johnson "Verrrry interesting" (I'm showing my age). Now I'll have to check mine to see, I think I have 3-4 of this card. A memory also stirs of a 1965 card or two with similar markings. Hmm.
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld. If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#14
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My main hesitation is that this is a very glaring variation to have been missed for 52 years by people like Al, Bob and Larry (my knowledge pales in comparison to theirs). As an example, the 1963 variations that came to light in the last year or so, are tiny and some of them involve squinting. This does not change the fact that they are true variations, but it seems odd that when people are noticing variations that involve squinting, they were missing this huge black blob sitting on Clay's head. I would like to hold the card in my hand. And now I have something else to keep an eye out for on ebay, like there weren't enough things already. Sitting on the fence, Doug |
#15
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Thanks Doug...not having seen the card (in hand) , and having some folks with much knowledge on the topic having no knowledge of this card, leaves me on the fence also. The owner of the card was provided with Bob's contact info via his blog, so it will be interesting to hear if he has indeed used that info to contact Bob about the card.
In regards to the 63s, do you happen to have a list of the variations you mentioned? thanks |
#16
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From my observations, here are the best ways to describe the cropping differences in the 1963 Topps cards. This is a quick cut and paste, so I didn't use the 'a' and 'b' to denote which is the tougher variant to find, only as a way to separate the two. Neither version is tough to find.
372 Lee: a) Hat just about touches top border. b) Larger space between hat and top border. 376 Wyatt: a) Thickest of the red shoulder stripes is on his right shoulder. On back, vertical line next to "Year" is complete. b) Thickest of the red shoulder stripes is on his left shoulder. On back, vertical line breaks at "1957-8." 386 Rookies: a) Heads are very low inside the green circles. b) Heads are well centered inside the green circles. 387 McBean: a) On his right shoulder a speck of a second stripe shows. b) On his right shoulder only one stripe is visible. 388 Davenport: a) Shadow of collar just grazes red border. Mitt grazes border in green circle. b) Shadow of collar doesn't reach red border. Mitt doesn't touch border. 404 Oldis: a) Inset photo is centered, inner grey areas of the "8" on background jersey are clearly visible. b) Inset photo is not centered, inner grey areas of the "8" on jersey are virtualy non-existent. 409 Face: a) Small space between dark blue rectangle in the stands on the right and border. b) Dark blue rectangle in stands on right touches border. 413 Walker: a) No red stripe visible on left shoulder. b) Red stripes are visible on both shoulders. 438 Stock: a) Butt goes into border of inset photo. Inset photo head falls pretty centered between edge of neck and shirt stripe (of the main picture). b) A little green is visible to the top left of his butt and head/hat brim falls under shirt stripe. 439 Zimmer: a) Only 2 vertical shirt stripes clearly visible. Part of elbow not visible in inset photo. b) 5 vertical shirt stripes clearly visible. Full elbow visible in inset photo. 445 Cash: a) Ball in inset photo reaches border. b) Ball in inset photo doesn't graze border.
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land ![]() https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. ![]() |
#17
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Thanks Darren, for the list...these 11 cards correspond to this article explaining why these "variations" occurred.
http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/1963_New_Variations.pdf Here is list I found for the 63s variations that Richard Dingman complied ...most of these variances appear to be due to what was mentioned in the article above. My guess is the 341 Baldschun card, and the #29 & #54 Rookies cards would be the exceptions. 21 Keough Green extends to card edge White vertical line right of green box Yellow vertical line right of green box Blue vertical line right of green box 28 Fornieles Green extends to card edge White vertical line right of green box Yellow vertical line right of green box Blue vertical line right of green box 29 Rookie Stars 1962 1963 39 Angels G and E in "Angels" on back not connected G and E connected in "Angels" on back 40 Power Green extends to card edge White vertical line left of green box Yellow vertical line left of green box Blue vertical line left of green box 42 Williams Normal Blank back 52 Schilling White bat Red bat 54 Rookie Stars 1962 1963 79 Checklist 1 Has black border on top No black border on top #79 shifted slightly right of center in box, names in bold 94 Schmidt Normal Blank back 102 Checklist 2 "Checklist" in white "Checklist" in red 105 Fairly Green extends to card edge White vertical line left of green box Yellow vertical line left of green box - Have but yellow line is very thin Blue vertical line left of green box 117 Davis Elbow does not touch red border in inset photo Elbow does touch red border in inset photo 121 Hannan Normal Stray orange line extending from copyright on back 134 Scheffing No green line on top of yellow box on front Partial green line on top of yellow box on front 143 WS Game 2 Yellow back Orange back 173 Bombers' Best No dark shadows around bat knob between Mick's legs Dark shadows around bat knob between Mick's legs 185 Hiller No black mark before "2 Yrs" in stat box Black mark before "2 Yrs" in stat box 191 Checklist 3 Box around 191 is square, yellow back Box around 191 is square, orange back Box around 191 is rectangular, color bleed 224 Roarke Black mark under inset photo No black mark under inset photo 249 Burke Normal Leo Burke back, Jim Gentile front 274 Checklist 4 Large white box around 274, copyright symbol under "o" Small white box around 274, copyright symbol under "R" 341 Baldschun Polkadot slash across inset photo body White slash across inset photo body 362 Checklist 5 362 box is higher than wide 362 box is wider than high Red and black boxes in front right margin, yellow bleeds into number box on back 372 Lee Normal Inset photo cropping variation 376 Wyatt Normal Inset photo cropping variation 382 Houk No ink blot Ink blot on left shoulder 386 Rookie Stars Normal Inset photo cropping variation 387 McBean Normal Inset photo cropping variation 388 Davenport Normal Inset photo cropping variation 404 Oldis Normal Inset photo cropping variation 409 Face Normal Inset photo cropping variation 413 Walker Stripe just shows on left shoulder Stripe does not show on left shoulder 431 Checklist 6 "Checklist" in black "Checklist" in white 438 Stock Normal Inset photo cropping variation 439 Zimmer Normal Inset photo cropping variation 445 Cash Normal Inset photo cropping variation 454 Fowler Card number not on white background Card number on white background 509 Checklist 7 Copyright to right Copyright centered 522 Rookie Stars Normal Orange stain under 1963 on front 527 Sadowski Normal Missing top border and parts of sides Green line over yellow background 533 Shantz Normal Red stain covers face 567 Duffalo Normal White spot with black center on wrist in inset photo |
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