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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:05 PM
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Larry More.y
 
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Default Are these variations or print defects?

In looking around for "new" variations, I noticed these two cards and was wondering if either would be a variation or if they are simply one off print defects.

The first is a 61 Topps #299 Clay Dalrymple with a "black hat". The second is a 63 Topps Dennis Menke with a yellow print line to the right of the inset photo.
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:34 PM
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Default variants

Saved---for whatever my view is worth, I think the Menke is a print defect. There are numerous similar print overuns in every Topps set. On the other hand PSA seems to think a similar print defect on the back of the 1961 Fairly is a variation

The 1961 Dalrymple is something else. If the black out was on the original card and not added after the printing process, it would seem to be an intentional change to the regular card and thus, in my view, a variation. Never seen one like it. And since he did not change teams in 60-61-62---it would seem unlikely Topps would make such a change

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 02-06-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-06-2013, 05:01 PM
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Menke is a print defect.
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  #4  
Old 02-06-2013, 08:33 PM
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Thanks guys for the info. Al, I figured that if you had not seen either of these cards as a variation, that the likelihood of them being a variation was slim.

The 61 card is tough to tell at what point in the process the black was added to the cap

Thanks again
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2013, 12:54 AM
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I would like to see a scan of the entire Dalrymple card.

Doug
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2013, 06:41 AM
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Doug, here is an image of the entire card...please let me know what you think. Thanks
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2013, 07:06 AM
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Are you sure that some kid didn't magic marker up that hat?? Or is it actually printed on the original card right from the factory?
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:41 AM
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I do not have the Clay D card in hand...in a different forum, I was discussing collecting variations with the owner when he shared with me these scans and OKd sharing them here. He tells me that the black on the hat appears to be part of the original printing process for this card, which would seemingly rule out the marker directly on the card itself. But again, I am also going by just the scans myself. Both Al and Doug seem to have infinite knowledge of these types of variations, so their opinions (as well as all others) are very welcomed.
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:15 AM
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There are 45 1961 C.Dalrymple cards on eBay an none of them have that black hat.
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:31 AM
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I agree with the magic marker theory.
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  #11  
Old 02-07-2013, 11:11 AM
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To me it certainly looks to have been added post-production. You can readily make out the dot patterns in both his face and in the background sky to the red edge around the cap, then they are obliterated. The small red streaks in the cap make it almost look like a scratch-off, and are evidence to me of someone's later-added "artwork".
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2013, 12:10 PM
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I knew I had seen a card with a similar amount of work done to a hat, and I finally found it , the 67 #51 Astros rookies card. Bales' hat looks very similar to the 61 Clay D card. All of the examples I have of this card are all the same, so it is clearly a card Topps issued this way

Also, my understanding is that the the dot patterns are only found on the photo part of the card and are not present on the borders, print, or even part of the photo that has been "adjusted" by Topps. A close look at the 67 #51 shows no dot patterns on the colored part of Bales' hat, while the rest of the image (including the top portion of the hat that Topps missed) does have a dot pattern.
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2013, 12:36 PM
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In the words of Arte Johnson "Verrrry interesting" (I'm showing my age). Now I'll have to check mine to see, I think I have 3-4 of this card. A memory also stirs of a 1965 card or two with similar markings. Hmm.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
Doug, here is an image of the entire card...please let me know what you think. Thanks
Thank you for posting the scan.

My main hesitation is that this is a very glaring variation to have been missed for 52 years by people like Al, Bob and Larry (my knowledge pales in comparison to theirs).

As an example, the 1963 variations that came to light in the last year or so, are tiny and some of them involve squinting. This does not change the fact that they are true variations, but it seems odd that when people are noticing variations that involve squinting, they were missing this huge black blob sitting on Clay's head.

I would like to hold the card in my hand.

And now I have something else to keep an eye out for on ebay, like there weren't enough things already.

Sitting on the fence,
Doug
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:30 AM
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Thanks Doug...not having seen the card (in hand) , and having some folks with much knowledge on the topic having no knowledge of this card, leaves me on the fence also. The owner of the card was provided with Bob's contact info via his blog, so it will be interesting to hear if he has indeed used that info to contact Bob about the card.

In regards to the 63s, do you happen to have a list of the variations you mentioned?

thanks
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:06 PM
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From my observations, here are the best ways to describe the cropping differences in the 1963 Topps cards. This is a quick cut and paste, so I didn't use the 'a' and 'b' to denote which is the tougher variant to find, only as a way to separate the two. Neither version is tough to find.

372 Lee:
a) Hat just about touches top border.
b) Larger space between hat and top border.

376 Wyatt:
a) Thickest of the red shoulder stripes is on his right shoulder. On back, vertical line next to "Year" is complete.
b) Thickest of the red shoulder stripes is on his left shoulder. On back, vertical line breaks at "1957-8."

386 Rookies:
a) Heads are very low inside the green circles.
b) Heads are well centered inside the green circles.

387 McBean:
a) On his right shoulder a speck of a second stripe shows.
b) On his right shoulder only one stripe is visible.

388 Davenport:
a) Shadow of collar just grazes red border. Mitt grazes border in green circle.
b) Shadow of collar doesn't reach red border. Mitt doesn't touch border.

404 Oldis:
a) Inset photo is centered, inner grey areas of the "8" on background jersey are clearly visible.
b) Inset photo is not centered, inner grey areas of the "8" on jersey are virtualy non-existent.

409 Face:
a) Small space between dark blue rectangle in the stands on the right and border.
b) Dark blue rectangle in stands on right touches border.

413 Walker:
a) No red stripe visible on left shoulder.
b) Red stripes are visible on both shoulders.

438 Stock:
a) Butt goes into border of inset photo. Inset photo head falls pretty centered between edge of neck and shirt stripe (of the main picture).
b) A little green is visible to the top left of his butt and head/hat brim falls under shirt stripe.

439 Zimmer:
a) Only 2 vertical shirt stripes clearly visible. Part of elbow not visible in inset photo.
b) 5 vertical shirt stripes clearly visible. Full elbow visible in inset photo.

445 Cash:
a) Ball in inset photo reaches border.
b) Ball in inset photo doesn't graze border.
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:52 PM
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Thanks Darren, for the list...these 11 cards correspond to this article explaining why these "variations" occurred.
http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/1963_New_Variations.pdf




Here is list I found for the 63s variations that Richard Dingman complied ...most of these variances appear to be due to what was mentioned in the article above. My guess is the 341 Baldschun card, and the #29 & #54 Rookies cards would be the exceptions.


21 Keough Green extends to card edge White vertical line right of green box
Yellow vertical line right of green box
Blue vertical line right of green box
28 Fornieles Green extends to card edge White vertical line right of green box
Yellow vertical line right of green box
Blue vertical line right of green box
29 Rookie Stars 1962 1963
39 Angels G and E in "Angels" on back not connected G and E connected in "Angels" on back
40 Power Green extends to card edge White vertical line left of green box
Yellow vertical line left of green box
Blue vertical line left of green box
42 Williams Normal Blank back
52 Schilling White bat Red bat
54 Rookie Stars 1962 1963
79 Checklist 1 Has black border on top No black border on top
#79 shifted slightly right of center in box, names in bold
94 Schmidt Normal Blank back
102 Checklist 2 "Checklist" in white "Checklist" in red
105 Fairly Green extends to card edge White vertical line left of green box
Yellow vertical line left of green box - Have but yellow line is very thin
Blue vertical line left of green box
117 Davis Elbow does not touch red border in inset photo Elbow does touch red border in inset photo
121 Hannan Normal Stray orange line extending from copyright on back
134 Scheffing No green line on top of yellow box on front Partial green line on top of yellow box on front
143 WS Game 2 Yellow back Orange back
173 Bombers' Best No dark shadows around bat knob between Mick's legs Dark shadows around bat knob between Mick's legs
185 Hiller No black mark before "2 Yrs" in stat box Black mark before "2 Yrs" in stat box
191 Checklist 3 Box around 191 is square, yellow back Box around 191 is square, orange back
Box around 191 is rectangular, color bleed
224 Roarke Black mark under inset photo No black mark under inset photo
249 Burke Normal Leo Burke back, Jim Gentile front
274 Checklist 4 Large white box around 274, copyright symbol under "o" Small white box around 274, copyright symbol under "R"
341 Baldschun Polkadot slash across inset photo body White slash across inset photo body
362 Checklist 5 362 box is higher than wide 362 box is wider than high
Red and black boxes in front right margin, yellow bleeds into number box on back
372 Lee Normal Inset photo cropping variation
376 Wyatt Normal Inset photo cropping variation
382 Houk No ink blot Ink blot on left shoulder
386 Rookie Stars Normal Inset photo cropping variation
387 McBean Normal Inset photo cropping variation
388 Davenport Normal Inset photo cropping variation
404 Oldis Normal Inset photo cropping variation
409 Face Normal Inset photo cropping variation
413 Walker Stripe just shows on left shoulder Stripe does not show on left shoulder
431 Checklist 6 "Checklist" in black "Checklist" in white
438 Stock Normal Inset photo cropping variation
439 Zimmer Normal Inset photo cropping variation
445 Cash Normal Inset photo cropping variation
454 Fowler Card number not on white background Card number on white background
509 Checklist 7 Copyright to right Copyright centered
522 Rookie Stars Normal Orange stain under 1963 on front
527 Sadowski Normal Missing top border and parts of sides
Green line over yellow background
533 Shantz Normal Red stain covers face
567 Duffalo Normal White spot with black center on wrist in inset photo
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