What is the origin of Frank Thomas NNOF?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Someone is going to be sad when they get that. Hopefully they figure out it is bad while they can still get their cash back.

I am wary of any eBay seller who doesn't at least take the time and effort to crop out their bare feet in the pics .

[ALR-bishop]

Send seller a question asking if the auction includes everything shown in the pictures

[hockeyhockey]

Lol

[West]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

My stash of cards did not have a Speier card at all and the Santana, Meadows and Martinez cards were all normal. Now how do we get PSA to recognize these green sheet PB errors?

The Frank Thomas partial black is sitting in Goldin Auctions right now at $8,101 with the juice.

https://goldin.co/item/1990-topps-er...rd-psa-mipr73r

I pulled all of the green sheet errors, including 3 Speiers and multiple Liebrandts, when I first discovered them in 2016. It was in a lot of 4 boxes and I had several Sammy Sosas that were all normal. Additionally, the Lance Johnson's were normal as well.

I believe the green sheet errors are significant because they occupy nearly the exact same locations on the uncut sheet as the orange sheet errors associated with the NNOF, and the blackless areas, although shaped differently, are sloped in a similar direction on the sheet.

Here they are with the sheets aligned:





If you look at the sheets as they would be fed through the presses, the Speier error is in the same location as the Tapani. Meadows error lines up with Lawton, Alomar=Darrin Jackson and Leibrandt=Franco.

The existence of the Lance Johnson error is an outlier but it has not been found in the same packs as the Speier/Ford/Leibrandt errors so I can't come to a conclusion either way on that. The Ford and Carmelo Martinez errors occupy the locations of the Robin Ventura and the Bob Knepper so those two do not exactly align with the orange sheet but since the general shape is the same, that could have been a simple variation in how the negatives were placed in the plate exposing machine. I'd say there's a decent change they are related but it's nothing you could prove.

I'm also not optimistic PSA would recognize the errors at this time. They haven't done it for the numerous other partial blackless errors from the 1980's Topps sets so I can't see them make an exception unless someone was able to prove it was related to the NNOF errors, which is probably impossible. Also, I have a 1990 Topps Roger Clemens blackless that is missing half is name. A near miss HOFer from the steroid era, with the exact same printing plate flaw that caused the NNOF but they only authenticated it as a normal card, PSA 6.

[slidekellyslide]

Good info. Thank you, West.

[jacksoncoupage]

Don't forget about the red-less orange sheet cards. The missing red ink may have only affected one sheet and was likely pulled from the dumpster when you consider the condition of each one that has turned up (I own the Thomas and Wade Boggs AS). The pattern of missing ink is very similar to the sort of haphazard, diagonal swaths of the blackless cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Don't forget about the red-less orange sheet cards. The missing red ink may have only affected one sheet and was likely pulled from the dumpster when you consider the condition of each one that has turned up (I own the Thomas and Wade Boggs AS). The pattern of missing ink is very similar to the sort of haphazard, diagonal swaths of the blackless cards.

Please post a pic of the Boggs AS.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please post a pic of the Boggs AS.

The first one I encountered turned up on ebay way back when I was feverishly monitoring unlisted junk wax error cards (maybe 2004-2005ish) and it was another All-Star player in poor shape but I don't recall which one. If it were a star, I'd probably have remembered.

[West]

That's a neat error - provided it isn't the result of weather damage/sun bleaching - I wonder how they made it out of the factory? Have you ever seen more than one copy of an individual card?
Really does look like it was salvaged from a dumpster! And the error areas do resemble the blackless errors somewhat.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by West

That's a neat error - provided it isn't the result of weather damage/sun bleaching - I wonder how they made it out of the factory? Have you ever seen more than one copy of an individual card?
Really does look like it was salvaged from a dumpster! And the error areas do resemble the blackless errors somewhat.

I am certain that it is not a sun damaged card due to the fact that the blue and yellow inks are entirely unchanged. Both colors remain vibrant while the red is missing or nearly missing in some spots.

To date, I have recorded just three total cards with the swaths of missing red ink, all orange sheet cards, all with damage. There could easily have been some that escaped me but I have only searched for them intermittently over the years.

[lowpopper]

Anybody got iron-clad proof of these coming out of packs?

Or just more highly doubtful stories?

[West]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

Anybody got iron-clad proof of these coming out of packs?

Or just more highly doubtful stories?

The blackless cards and NNOF? There are dozens of first hand accounts of these coming out of packs on the internet. Not to mention a few Youtube and Facebook Live videos. If you don't believe this, what is your alternative theory and what is it based on?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by West

The blackless cards and NNOF? There are dozens of first hand accounts of these coming out of packs on the internet. Not to mention a few Youtube and Facebook Live videos. If you don't believe this, what is your alternative theory and what is it based on?

In the "old days" (well before the tsunami of covid flipper-collectors), these folks used to pop out every so often with this question, seeding this "just curious" doubt around boards and shows and almost always, they'd eventually reveal that they are sitting on factory sets and/or pushing that they come from factory sets.

Same would apply to the George Bush cards.

[West]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

In the "old days" (well before the tsunami of covid flipper-collectors), these folks used to pop out every so often with this question, seeding this "just curious" doubt around boards and shows and almost always, they'd eventually reveal that they are sitting on factory sets and/or pushing that they come from factory sets.

Same would apply to the George Bush cards.

Yeah, the NNOF card has long attracted scammers due to it being a relative standout value wise among 1985-1992 produced cards.

However, I don't think Lowpopper is fishing for anything here. They started this thread and seem genuinely curious at getting at the facts. I'm just wondering why Lowpopper is still wondering at the truth when there are pages and pages of research here all pointing to a mostly wax distribution for these errors. And 3 seconds of search engine work away are two Youtube videos of Brian pulling a Fisk and Russell partial blackless from Joe Schembri's PSA wax packs.

I just don't see how this is still a legitimate question at this stage in the research. Which makes me sad to see it still asked when I do love the thrust of the original thread.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by West

Yeah, the NNOF card has long attracted scammers due to it being a relative standout value wise among 1985-1992 produced cards.

However, I don't think Lowpopper is fishing for anything here. They started this thread and seem genuinely curious at getting at the facts. I'm just wondering why Lowpopper is still wondering at the truth when there are pages and pages of research here all pointing to a mostly wax distribution for these errors. And 3 seconds of search engine work away are two Youtube videos of Brian pulling a Fisk and Russell partial blackless from Joe Schembri's PSA wax packs.

I just don't see how this is still a legitimate question at this stage in the research. Which makes me sad to see it still asked when I do love the thrust of the original thread.

Yeah, it is baffling to me, this whole pattern of "if I didnt see it, it isn't real." I have really only encountered it within the last two years, cardboard-wise.

Not sure if Lowpopper is the same guy who pops onto the Facebook group discussions for this card and always make the same-but-vague allegation but I've seen it few times recently.

[lowpopper]

A wise blind man one told me:

believe half of what you see, none of what you hear

[West]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

A wise blind man one told me:

believe half of what you see, none of what you hear

This has been a very productive thread, and I will continue to contribute, but I won't be responding to your posts anymore.

[lowpopper]

Kaboom!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by West

This has been a very productive thread, and I will continue to contribute, but I won't be responding to your posts anymore.

That's not fair. You should checkout his raffle thread or his thread that he got a rookie Mantle stolen. Maybe your opinion of him will change.

[West]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That's not fair. You should checkout his raffle thread or his thread that he got a rookie Mantle stolen. Maybe your opinion of him will change.

Ha, it's all good. This has been one of the most informative NNOF threads. Happy to continue to add to it in productive ways.

[lowpopper]

I'll tell you where I'm coming from.

I start off being highly suspicious of this card's origins solely due to the
George Bush Sr. card. Those came from the same geographical location
as the NNOF allegedly did. Off the bat, I'm skeptical. No serious trail of
boxes/cases has ever been sniffed out. How has nobody has ever traced
back to a solid source when they pulled this from a pack in the early 90s?
Nobody went back for more all after they pulled the first one?

Something of this magnitude would have been sniffed out given the attention
it got. It seems far too coincidental that a big find has never been unearthed.
If 100 Bush cards can walk out the back door, a similar number printer's
scrap sheets with Thomas's name missing could do the same.

Now I could be completely wrong, and it's likely these cards were just a fluke
staccato in the printing timeline. I suspect these were at least partially
supplemented by a group of cards exiting the factory not via packs.

When I do make an organic find, I'll fully retract my skepticism. I live in New
York 5 minutes from the Bush Sr. find. I see way more packs, boxes, cases
than your average bear out here. If these were pack delivered, they will be
pack found...by me

Happy Collecting!

[steve B]

My comments in blue

Originally Posted by lowpopper

I'll tell you where I'm coming from.

I start off being highly suspicious of this card's origins solely due to the
George Bush Sr. card. Those came from the same geographical location
as the NNOF allegedly did. Off the bat, I'm skeptical. No serious trail of
boxes/cases has ever been sniffed out. How has nobody has ever traced
back to a solid source when they pulled this from a pack in the early 90s?
Nobody went back for more all after they pulled the first one?

NY was a common place for Topps to do tests for years. That something odd would have been released there or would have snuck out there is no surprise. Heck, I lived in western Mass, in a place probably served by a wholesaler out of NY and got a pack of 75 Minis at one point.


Something of this magnitude would have been sniffed out given the attention
it got. It seems far too coincidental that a big find has never been unearthed.
If 100 Bush cards can walk out the back door, a similar number printer's
scrap sheets with Thomas's name missing could do the same.

Ah, but whenever something like that has happened, and it happened a lot in the late 80s- early 90's, the cards turned up in quantity, often in uncut sheets. Not one here one there like this card. The one I've seen in person was in the late 90's and came from a source in the Boston area. Now whether that source got it out of someone in NY I don't know. At the time I felt it was a printing error rather than a variation.

Now I could be completely wrong, and it's likely these cards were just a fluke
staccato in the printing timeline. I suspect these were at least partially
supplemented by a group of cards exiting the factory not via packs.

I'm not sure exactly what that means. It was a major print defect that affected one black plate used to print the cards, and it affected several other cards on the same sheet. Could some have left the factory not in packs? Of course they could have, but as above that stuff usually showed up in quantity , and these didn't
At the time I was buying cards from multiple sources, both hobby and retail, and in different pack formats. I've been interested in misprints since the 70's, and did get the occasional misprinted card. It would have never occurred to me to keep track of what sort of pack it came from, let alone what store I got that pack from. And it's general appearance is not something that looks like a plate problem. It looks more like a piece of paper or a peeled section of sheet got between the sheet and the inked part of the press. We know better now. AT the time if I'd found one I'd have stuck it in a toploader labeled as "obstructed print" and filed it with the rest of the transient printing mistakes. I would assume that it was not the error described in Beckett.

When I do make an organic find, I'll fully retract my skepticism. I live in New
York 5 minutes from the Bush Sr. find. I see way more packs, boxes, cases
than your average bear out here. If these were pack delivered, they will be
pack found...by me

Happy Collecting!