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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Modern Baseball Cards Forum (1980-Present)

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  #1  
Old 07-15-2016, 04:20 PM
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Default When was the end of Junk era?

When would you say the end of the junk era was? Was there a specific release that in hindsight is the beginning of this modern era? Would you say the introduction of refractors and autos signaled the end?
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2016, 05:06 PM
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I don't think it has stopped. Refractors came out in 1993 and autographs in pack 1996 . Both of those years were well in to the over production era. I've heard from the old timers that 1968 on is considered over production era.
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2016, 07:55 PM
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Junk era is still going on and won't ever stop.
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  #4  
Old 07-15-2016, 08:12 PM
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When did it start ? I bet a really big asteroid or the Yellowstone super volcano could stop it
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  #5  
Old 07-15-2016, 08:29 PM
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The junk era ended?!?!

So I can collect new stuff again?!?!?

Oh, nope. I bought a pack at WalMart today (my first in over a year, I think), and it was all still junk.
Meh.

Give me a pack of '91 Topps or '89 Fleer any day over this crap.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2016, 12:53 PM
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Haha tough crowd. Well at a certain point topps, upper deck etc stopped over producing sets, yeah? I mean ppl are making art with cut up pieces of the stuff. They certainly aren't doing that with bowman chrome autos.

Why the hate for the new stuff?

I personally got back into the hobby with modern bowmans but getting into vintage now.


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  #7  
Old 07-16-2016, 01:08 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookiemonster View Post
I don't think it has stopped. Refractors came out in 1993 and autographs in pack 1996 . Both of those years were well in to the over production era. I've heard from the old timers that 1968 on is considered over production era.
In pack autos started in 1990 for major sets. Maybe earlier for some of the smaller producers?

While a lot of the stuff produced now still sort of falls under the "junk" category, there's a fair amount that I think has some upside. Yes, most sets are produced in a wide array of versions, which really skew our impressions. If there's 10 sets and each has some version numbered to 10 of each card, it looks as if a card that there's only 10 of isn't really all that hard to find.
So the demand gets watered down - even player collectors just shrug and leave it on the wantlist but move on to the next set issued.

Trying to find some stuff a few years afterward is more challenging than it might seem. The first set of Signature Rookies Hockey had signed promos, usually numbered at less than 500. I haven't gone after them as seriously as I could, but I still haven't even put together a solid checklist. For that matter I still see SR stuff I didn't know existed (And I have doubts about some of it. )

And the differences caused by cards being produced in multiple places or changes in production have led to some versions of even the junkiest stuff that are far less common.

Once the group of people collecting cards from the late 80s-early 90s gets beyond the "OMG it's the joe nobody ROOOOKIEEEE!!!" stage some of that will have some value. (And I freely admit that that may never happen )

To me the end of what I call the junk wax era was either right after the strike in 94, or around the time a lot of the formerly big card producers went under. So roughly 2005-2009 ish. Not a hard end, but a fading out of the companies that couldn't sustain enough business to keep the license.

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  #8  
Old 07-16-2016, 02:38 PM
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Your right Steve the first game used cards came out in 1996.( got it twisted )

I feel it never stopped for this reason.
Let's say a topps chrome card of Bryce Harper for example.
The regular chrome who knows how many they make of that. Then there are
The different color variations. Who really knows of the final number of topps chrome Bryce Harper.

As in the 80s and 90s I'm sure some real gems will shine through in years to come. But if you think a base topps 2015 Mike trout will be like owning a mantle in 50 years, well I highly doubt it will be anywhere near. It will more likely be like owing a 1994 topps ken Griffey Jr.
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2016, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookiemonster View Post
Your right Steve the first game used cards came out in 1996.( got it twisted )

I feel it never stopped for this reason.
Let's say a topps chrome card of Bryce Harper for example.
The regular chrome who knows how many they make of that. Then there are
The different color variations. Who really knows of the final number of topps chrome Bryce Harper.

As in the 80s and 90s I'm sure some real gems will shine through in years to come. But if you think a base topps 2015 Mike trout will be like owning a mantle in 50 years, well I highly doubt it will be anywhere near. It will more likely be like owing a 1994 topps ken Griffey Jr.
That's pretty much correct for most stuff. If the culture ever moves past the current one where it's chasing inserts in whatever the "hot" new product is and very limited collecting - Player collecting, rookie collecting, then it might change.

One thing that's interesting is that with numbered cards and stated odds it's possible to get a reasonable idea of the press run of the base sets, and sometimes the non- numbered inserts too. It's tough on some of them, because of the different products - Retail, hobby, blaster, bonus packs, etc with different odds. plus there's however many additional in factory sets.

Some of the better retail sets don't have shockingly large print runs for the base cards.

The stuff I think could have a chance is mostly the retail exclusives, like the Gypsy Queen special SP minis that are in Blasters, maybe exclusive to Target. (My local Wal-Mart either doesn't do cards or hides them well. And I haven't checked Toys R Us yet)

Even if they're just in blasters in general, that's a 50 card set that essentially comes in a $20 pack.

Steve B
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  #10  
Old 07-17-2016, 11:54 AM
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Personally, without a change in collecting philosophy by modern collectors I think it's going strong and unlikely to end soon.

The obsession with "hits" and serialed cards has killed set collecting. Until I stop seeing collectors opening packs and throwing the commons out as garbage, it's still junk wax time.

Crazy that these packs cost no less than 5 bucks and up into the hundreds and people treat the commons like 80's Topps contest cards.
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2016, 12:37 PM
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My antipathy towards modern cards is due to the fact that they depend on manufactured scarcity to have a market. It's made buying baseball cards basically into buying lotto tickets. And I don't buy those either.

Another (related) problem, which really connects modern cards to the 80s-90s period, is that cards are manufactured specifically to be collectibles. The first sign that this was a thing was when you could buy complete sets straight from the manufacturer (or the retailer). Vintage cards were children's toys, these aren't. One of the charms of buying a '33 Goudey is in thinking about how somebody's dad indulged his son with a penny to buy a pack of gum - even though they were stuck in the midst of the Depression - and that this card may have been that kid's prize possession. When you buy a modern card, you don't get that. Rather, you get to think about how the marketing department determined that adding more foil would appeal to middle aged men hoping to turn a profit on baseball cards, thereby pushing the demand curve on their product a little further to the right.
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  #12  
Old 07-17-2016, 12:45 PM
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I think it will stop when the card companies start putting effort in to their product again. The Topps and Bowman sets from the rivalry years were and still are works of art. Even after the rivalry ended, you can still take a 1960s or 1970s Topps card and hold it up as an example of postwar era pop art. Nowadays, they take a photo, wave their photoshop wands, and call it a card (the low point, IMO, is the 2007 Topps set). The Heritage and A&G sets aren't much better; that's just ripping off someone else's design. There's no originality anymore.
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  #13  
Old 07-17-2016, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
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The Topps and Bowman sets from the rivalry years were and still are works of art. Even after the rivalry ended, you can still take a 1960s or 1970s Topps card and hold it up as an example of postwar era pop art.
So true!

This is where my art collector and card collector find a great common ground. Also, it's the reason I have outlandishly overpaid for color shift errors as they often exaggerate the "pop art" aesthetic.
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  #14  
Old 07-17-2016, 07:04 PM
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Looking back at the last set I really tried to collect which was 2002 Topps, it reminded me of 1988, where the more packs I bought the more packs were available. I think 2001 was just as bad just to promote not only the 50th anniversary of Topps, but also Ichiro joining MLB.

I have a feeling that after Ichiro retires a lot of unopened 2001 boxes and packs are going to start coming out of the wood work just to cash in on his legacy.

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  #15  
Old 07-17-2016, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by revlis View Post
Haha tough crowd. Well at a certain point topps, upper deck etc stopped over producing sets, yeah? I mean ppl are making art with cut up pieces of the stuff. They certainly aren't doing that with bowman chrome autos.

Why the hate for the new stuff?

I personally got back into the hobby with modern bowmans but getting into vintage now.


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I agree. I don't like collectors calling it junk and/or crap. There are a lot of guys collecting this type of stuff. And, I respect these collectors. I never put them down. I call these cards the shiny stuff, but never say it's crap.
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  #16  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:30 AM
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Just as an FYI -- the 1st autograph cards in major manufacturer packs were the 1990 Reggie Jackson cards (#d to 2500) by Upper Deck. From that point on, there were a few cards each year and some of the "other" manufacturers did more autographs.

Classic was the biggest name and the most respected of that group with Ken Goldin leading the way by getting Shaq to an exclusive before his rookie season.

Then in 1996 -- The "Signature Series" with one autograph card per pack was released and from that point on -- the autograph card pack market, so to speak, took off and we still have those to this very day
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  #17  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:52 AM
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Couple of things autos became regularly available and production started limiting with tetrad and classic 1992-1993 at least they started printing the pro # on the product still not in what anyone would considered scarce.


Spoiler alert:
We are actually in the spoke card Era now. Spoke cards are happening as we speak it just looks different. Who actually keeps a base card any longer. People bust and throw them in the trash if it's not an auto, rc, or limited print run refractor etc.
What will happen in 30 or 50 years when everyone threw it away. I mean I haven't kept a base card in 20 years.
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  #18  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:15 AM
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The initial overproduction started in 1974 when topps moved to a single series set. Until 1980 there are tons of cards but topps' poor QC makes it challenging to find certain cards in 'mint' condition, e.g., 1976 George Brett without print haze or 1975 Garvey without the white dot on his nose or a 1976 Reggie without a white streak on the bottom yellow stripe.

True junk wax started in 1981 and reached its apex in the early 1990s after the insanity of the 1991 Anaheim national.

The irony of it is that 20-30 years out there are some really nice cards of HOFers that are obtainable on the most modest budget even in a PSA 9 holder, if that floats your boat. I've started buying junk era cards of players I like and in designs I find impressive because I am a collector. I picked up one of my favorite junk era cards, 1988 Score Nolan Ryan for a few bucks in PSA 9. I really get a kick out of the more creative parallel issues like the Topps Stadium Club matrix from 1997 or the 1996 Pinnacle Starburst. There are also some incredibly interesting inserts like the intricate die cut cards or the cards make with non-paper materials like acetate or metallic foil. The TSC Midsummer Matchup set is a favorite; the flocked iridescent foil makes for a really striking look.

I completely agree with the criticism of the throwback designs. At least the junk wax manufacturers were trying with new materials and interesting graphics. The revisited designs are just lazy IMO.

The pop art reference is spot on too. Art even met cards when Peter Max did sets for topps. Another issue I now collect.
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  #19  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:36 AM
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I agree. I don't like collectors calling it junk and/or crap. There are a lot of guys collecting this type of stuff. And, I respect these collectors. I never put them down. I call these cards the shiny stuff, but never say it's crap.
Good post.
This happened in comics. About 10 years ago a bunch of people called comics from the 1980s to 1990s crap,but a lot of that stuff sky rocketed in value again because of comic book movies that created new interest.
Believe it or not I see the steroid era guys going up in value again because of nostalgia.
Look at Pokemon it was dead 10 years ago,and now it`s the hottest thing going.
So yeah start loading up on those Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds Jr cards now.
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Old 07-18-2016, 09:40 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
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The initial overproduction started in 1974 when topps moved to a single series set. Until 1980 there are tons of cards but topps' poor QC makes it challenging to find certain cards in 'mint' condition, e.g., 1976 George Brett without print haze or 1975 Garvey without the white dot on his nose or a 1976 Reggie without a white streak on the bottom yellow stripe.

True junk wax started in 1981 and reached its apex in the early 1990s after the insanity of the 1991 Anaheim national.

The irony of it is that 20-30 years out there are some really nice cards of HOFers that are obtainable on the most modest budget even in a PSA 9 holder, if that floats your boat. I've started buying junk era cards of players I like and in designs I find impressive because I am a collector. I picked up one of my favorite junk era cards, 1988 Score Nolan Ryan for a few bucks in PSA 9. I really get a kick out of the more creative parallel issues like the Topps Stadium Club matrix from 1997 or the 1996 Pinnacle Starburst. There are also some incredibly interesting inserts like the intricate die cut cards or the cards make with non-paper materials like acetate or metallic foil. The TSC Midsummer Matchup set is a favorite; the flocked iridescent foil makes for a really striking look.

I completely agree with the criticism of the throwback designs. At least the junk wax manufacturers were trying with new materials and interesting graphics. The revisited designs are just lazy IMO.

The pop art reference is spot on too. Art even met cards when Peter Max did sets for topps. Another issue I now collect.
88 Score is one of the sets I collect, but sort of passively. They were actually die cut, which was interesting at the time. It also led to there being at least three versions. The first batch had gaps at the corners of the die cutting die so there were tufts of torn cardboard on all the corners. But usually only for part of the set. Naturally people complained, and they redid the dies. But all they did was make the gaps smaller and move them in about a quarter inch from the corner. More complaints, and they finally got it right. Most of the cards have the good looking cuts. The ones with the first die cuts are pretty easy to find, but the second are actually fairly tough since they weren't around for long, maybe a month? Maybe less? Fairly tough being relative - they're still 88 Score

Until I bought a big batch of them I'd only found a few.

Going through the batch I found some with color differences, and a closer look showed that they were screened differently. So there may be six different of some cards if not all of them.

Steve B
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  #21  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:26 AM
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Thanks for the info on the dates for refractors and autos. Helps put things in perspective. I happened to get into collecting right at the height of it as a kid.

I'm currently starting to build a few vintage sets as well as buy individual vintage cards I like. However, I will definitely not be building any sets of modern cards. Its just not for me, its far to easy and they are kinda worthless (both to me and monetarily). So it seems there is some kind of problem with the product that is being produced. People like the refractor autos (myself included) and will pay a lot of money to collect them but throw away the base stuff which leaves little value to set builders.

How should they address this? Are there not alternative producers that cater for the set builder? Or is it simply that things have evolved?

Completely agree with the pop art of the older cards, its certainly what draws me to them. Not sure how that could be resurrected bc any time i see a modern card going for a vintage look it always looks unauthentic or a copy of an older set rather that updating that look and feel for today.
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Old 07-18-2016, 03:06 PM
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I think the junk era is still going on, but that the entire feel has changed. The fact is now that base cards are seen as being about as worthless today as cards from 1990. Less so in some cases for regional markup. But the problem remains that today the insert card rules the roost, and the base cards are the junk. In the early 90s, all the cards were junk, with few exceptions.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:41 AM
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I think in 20 years or so, when many of us are long gone from the hobby, you will be surprised as to the scarcity of some modern base cards. With everyone moving them out, they won't be around like you think they are today.
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Old 07-19-2016, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
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I think the junk era is still going on, but that the entire feel has changed. The fact is now that base cards are seen as being about as worthless today as cards from 1990. Less so in some cases for regional markup. But the problem remains that today the insert card rules the roost, and the base cards are the junk. In the early 90s, all the cards were junk, with few exceptions.
I would tend to agree with this.

When visiting the local card shop, I regularly speak with the owner, and always ask, "so what's your best seller," or "what's moving for you right now," etc., and I find the answers enlightening. Basically, (from the owner's prospective), competition is good, and the fact that Topps is the only MLB licensee is not so good, and the fact that card packs, boxes, cases are increasing in price and the value that they contain are not increasing. Everything is based upon "hits" or "pulls," both terms that were foreign to me when I got back into the hobby in 2000 after leaving in 1985. So much had changed in those 15 years; cards no longer had gum in the packs, there were now insert cards with autographs, jersey swatches, bat pieces, baseball bits, shiny parallels, etc.

Seems that to keep the interest of "collectors," manufacturers have had to place random "hits" into packs to keep those that collect baseball cards buying the cards. I have tried on several occasions to try to get back into collecting modern cards, as I was a set builder from 1975-84, but I've found the cost too prohibitive to build sets, with the only exception being Topps Opening Day product, and even that product does not interest me; partly due to the design of the cards. I'm a graphic designer (of 26+ years) but all the Photoshopping, gradient effects, background texture patterns, etc. just really turn me off. The Topps Archives cards, as far as "modern" cards go, interest me the most because they mimic past sets that either were appealing visually or that I collected. The nice, clean designs of several sets of the 1970s (and 50s and 60s) speak for themselves; unfortunately, most collectors (according to the owner) don't buy modern cards for the cards themselves; they buy them for the "hits." Borrowing from a statement in another part of the forum I found appropriate, it's legalized lotto in a way.

I also find it interesting that the biggest sellers are the Bowmans and Bowman Chromes and the "throwback" modern cards, such as Allen & Ginter, Topps Heritage, etc. That suggests that those that are spending the money on new product still prefer the older cards, so if they buy new stuff, they gravitate to card designs that are vintage.

I, too, think the junk wax era continues, albeit in a modified form... Wasn't it nice to go to the local convenient store or 7-11 and purchase a few packs for under a dollar, open the wax (yes, wax) pack and thumb through the cards, and seeing what you needed while struggling with the extra sugary stick of bubble gum in your mouth?

Do I buy modern cards? Really, no. I've found that for the value of 2-3 new packs, I can certainly pick up something I really want, such as a Goudey or vintage Bowman card. If I really want the "thrill" of opening new packs, I buy Japanese baseball cards (the only modern cards I collect), as that is fun to me...
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:19 AM
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Since Jay and myself frequent the same store --- I can add some more depth to his comments

In Al's defense -- he does have a TON of singles from 1981-present available for collectors and those boxes get visited on a regular basis. It's not his biggest seller but he does very well with them. And there are many collectors who do base cards and frequent those boxes

However, the bulk of his money and his collector interest comes from the newest packs and boxes. If there is a decent product, go into his store on Wednesday evening about 6 PM and ask him how many cases/boxes he blew through of the new product.

Jay: I think you would have just as much fun opening "retail blaster" boxes of a product you like.

Just MOO

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Old 07-19-2016, 09:47 AM
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When you see unopened boxes selling for less than factory cost soon after release, you realize that we are still in the junk wax era. Junk wax=Overproduction. I doubt the card companies will ever learn.
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Old 07-19-2016, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Klein View Post
Since Jay and myself frequent the same store --- I can add some more depth to his comments

In Al's defense -- he does have a TON of singles from 1981-present available for collectors and those boxes get visited on a regular basis. It's not his biggest seller but he does very well with them. And there are many collectors who do base cards and frequent those boxes

However, the bulk of his money and his collector interest comes from the newest packs and boxes. If there is a decent product, go into his store on Wednesday evening about 6 PM and ask him how many cases/boxes he blew through of the new product.

Jay: I think you would have just as much fun opening "retail blaster" boxes of a product you like.

Just MOO

Rich
Rich: Nice post. Al does have singles (mostly commons) from about 1965-1981, along with a smattering of 1950s Bowman and 1960s Fleer. His setup has expanded within the past 1-2 years from nil to approximately 3-4 thousand cards, which I think nice. Honestly, the only reason I go into the store now is to either buy supplies (Ultra Pro pages, albums, etc.) or peruse from the singles table. I have not found any modern product that I have liked, at least enough to collect and try to build a set, since I returned to the hobby in 2000. I have bought a few packs here and there of various product, trying them out, to try to "spur" my interest again in modern product, and it just doesn't "take." I end up selling or trading the new stuff for vintage.

Seriously, the only modern products I collect are Japanese baseball, Calbee, BBM, and Owner's League. The Japanese cards are WELL done, nice designs, and when you open a pack, you get...drum roll....cards. Not cut signatures, parallels, etc. It's been a refreshment to the hobby for me.

Still think that "Junk wax" (wax a misnomer) is still here, and hopefully, as echoed earlier in the post, perhaps Panini and Topps will put more effort in design and thought into their products rather than high prices and the emphasis on "hits."
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:59 PM
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When you see unopened boxes selling for less than factory cost soon after release, you realize that we are still in the junk wax era. Junk wax=Overproduction. I doubt the card companies will ever learn.
That's partly the fault of the dealers. So many of them in the late 89's- early 90's were started on a shoestring, and tried to carry everything. With so many sets there was always something new coming out in a couple weeks, so they had a fairly short window of time to get the currently "hot" stuff sold. The stuff that was really wanted sold fast and went up, the rest sold ok but stuck around as dead inventory. To get the next thing, a dealer had to pay the card co and make a minimum order. The ones that had money could absorb the cost of the slower moving product, the ones with no money eventually began selling at a loss to "raise cash" for the next set.

And that led to lots of collectors buying stuff only on closeout.

A viscious circle that slowed as the unfunded washed out, but really hasn't ended.

Steve B
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:18 PM
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It feels like the "junk era" still with the addition of the "hit" as the prime directive. Box breaks have become very popular as people pay way too much $$$ hoping to get a chance at one hit out of a few box openings but still saving money relative to buying their own boxes/cases. Of the new stuff, I myself only collect Bowman draft autos and then only Braves prospects. The idea of trying to chase these hits for my team sounds both expensive and wasteful.

Vintage will never crash and burn, the future prospects of these "hits?" well, I see lots of them going for only a few dollars on a facebook auction group I follow, it seems like, eventually, these hits are going to end up priced like commons were before.
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:04 PM
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When would you say the end of the junk era was? Was there a specific release that in hindsight is the beginning of this modern era? Would you say the introduction of refractors and autos signaled the end?
What end?

May you find happiness in collecting what you like,

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Old 08-10-2016, 04:30 PM
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Good post.
This happened in comics. About 10 years ago a bunch of people called comics from the 1980s to 1990s crap,but a lot of that stuff sky rocketed in value again because of comic book movies that created new interest.
Believe it or not I see the steroid era guys going up in value again because of nostalgia.
Look at Pokemon it was dead 10 years ago,and now it`s the hottest thing going.
So yeah start loading up on those Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds Jr cards now.
McGwire rookies in "9" and "10" have gone up substantially in the last year+. He was probably the most iconic player in the mid-90's through 2000 most fans had ever seen. I was one of the fans who came early in '99 to watch him take batting practice in old Tiger Stadium--he hit 4 over the left field roof, including one in left center, and those that came in the upper deck in left where we were sitting still had the force of cannon shots behind them! Other players hitting balls into the same area had theirs landing with a gentle "thunk" in comparison.

I think that the fact that his performance was enhanced with "artificial additives" matter little to younger fans of that time, who are now in their 30's. After all, that's a genie that MLB will never ever get entirely back into its bottle. Some star in Boston is having his career year at age 40? Really? I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night! The number of other players who have ever done that is precisely "zero."

All the best,

Larry
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:34 PM
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The initial overproduction started in 1974 when topps moved to a single series set. Until 1980 there are tons of cards but topps' poor QC makes it challenging to find certain cards in 'mint' condition, e.g., 1976 George Brett without print haze or 1975 Garvey without the white dot on his nose or a 1976 Reggie without a white streak on the bottom yellow stripe.

True junk wax started in 1981 and reached its apex in the early 1990s after the insanity of the 1991 Anaheim national.

The irony of it is that 20-30 years out there are some really nice cards of HOFers that are obtainable on the most modest budget even in a PSA 9 holder, if that floats your boat. I've started buying junk era cards of players I like and in designs I find impressive because I am a collector. I picked up one of my favorite junk era cards, 1988 Score Nolan Ryan for a few bucks in PSA 9. I really get a kick out of the more creative parallel issues like the Topps Stadium Club matrix from 1997 or the 1996 Pinnacle Starburst. There are also some incredibly interesting inserts like the intricate die cut cards or the cards make with non-paper materials like acetate or metallic foil. The TSC Midsummer Matchup set is a favorite; the flocked iridescent foil makes for a really striking look.

I completely agree with the criticism of the throwback designs. At least the junk wax manufacturers were trying with new materials and interesting graphics. The revisited designs are just lazy IMO.

The pop art reference is spot on too. Art even met cards when Peter Max did sets for topps. Another issue I now collect.
1988 score was a beautiful sight I love the Brett

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Old 11-03-2016, 08:44 PM
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1988 score was a beautiful sight I love the Brett

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using Tapatalk
Score had a plant in the little town I lived in for a very short time and some of the 88's got produced here.

Also noticed your Manny Trillo username. Manny, Greg Luzinski, and Larry cox played minor league ball here in 1968 for the Phillies.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:05 AM
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I think in 20 years or so, when many of us are long gone from the hobby, you will be surprised as to the scarcity of some modern base cards. With everyone moving them out, they won't be around like you think they are today.
I think you are already starting to see this with some of the unopened boxes from the early part of the junk wax era (i.e. '80-84). No that they are scarce yet, but certainly not popping up as often.


Z
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Old 11-15-2016, 04:08 PM
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It's considered junk if : Supply > Demand

Not Junk if : Demand > Supply.

Doesn't matter if low or high production !!! If only 1 card is produced but nobody wants it, it is junk. If 1 million is produced and 2 million people want it, it's not junk.
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:46 PM
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2016 and counting...
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:41 PM
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Thumbs down Junk years!

I would say all company's ,That put that junk {UV} coating on both sides of the cards!Fronts, I get,but the backs?WHY!!!1994 to around 2004 are all stuck together like bricks & I would not dare buy a unopened box in those years!Good for a cold night ,if you need some heat from a fire!Other than that , just junk!Rob!
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:41 AM
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If you do need to take care of those cards which are stuck; put them into a freezer. That will take care of all the sticking issues.
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Old 11-16-2016, 06:54 PM
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I live in Japan and collect (mainly) Japanese cards. The development of the card market here provides an interesting comparison with that in the US. Some of the comments in this thread got me thinking of these so I thought I would put them out there just for thoughts.

There have been a lot of companies over the decades that have produced cards in Japan but only two of them have done so for an extended period of time: BBM and Calbee. BBM started making cards in 1991 and modeled its cards and business on what American producers were making at the time, which was the high water mark of the junk wax overproduction era. They made a big set and sold it in foil packs like American sets were. Over the years it has basically followed American trends by introducing insert cards, autograph cards and other things for people to chase. It is basically a Japanese clone of an American card company.

Calbee is a bit more interesting though since it has no parallel in the US market. It started issuing cards in 1973, selling them as a promotional item aimed at children that came attached to its bags of potato chips (which is Calbee`s main business).

The interesting thing is that, from that humble beginning in 1973 to becoming probably the most well-known maker of Japanese baseball cards in Japan, do you know how Calbee distributes its baseball cards in 2016?

As a promotional item aimed at children that comes attached to its bags of potato chips.

Calbee has been remarkably consistent throughout the years in keeping its cards and overall business model simple. You buy a bag of chips (which even today cost less than $1) and you get two baseball cards with it (previous years they only included one card, but since 2009 its been 2). There are usually a couple insert sets that might be considered "chase" cards, but they don`t do the expensive memorobelia or other US style rare premium ones. Its a set meant for set-builders rather than for chasing some stuff and throwing the rest out. Set sizes have varied drastically over the years - the 75-76 set boasting almost 1500 cards, while most others generally fall in the 300-400 range.

The designs of the cards are extremely simple (and beautiful): a full bleed photo of the player on the front with almost no other design elements other than the player`s name and team. Calbee sets, particularly from the 1970s which had amazing photography, are among the most attractive ever produced. While they have made adjustments to the design throughout the years, with today`s sets a bit more glossy and printed on a different type of cardboard and in cards of slightly different dimensions, this year`s Calbee set is actually extremely similar to the original 1973 set in its basic design.

One of the things that (to me at least) really defines the junk wax era is that it marked the transition of the US card market from one in which cards were mainly targeted at children in the 1970s (with of course adults also collecting, but not dominating the market for new cards) to one in which adults became the main market that producers targeted. All the producers who entered the market in the 1980s and 1990s were basically aiming their products at a collector`s market whose logic was largely defined by adult collectors, rather than viewing cards as more or less a toy for kids to collect.

So Calbee is kind of the last survivor in the world of a baseball card maker which has kept its core business model - selling cards to kids as a promotional item - the same as it was in the pre-junk wax era. Its almost like an archeological relic from a time long past.

For that reason, as a set collector with fond memories of putting sets together as a kid, I love collecting cards over here because it offers an experience that is more or less extinct in North America now (at least in terms of new sets). The junk wax era never fully wiped out the old way of collecting in Japan like it did in the US.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by seanofjapan View Post
I live in Japan and collect (mainly) Japanese cards. The development of the card market here provides an interesting comparison with that in the US. Some of the comments in this thread got me thinking of these so I thought I would put them out there just for thoughts.

There have been a lot of companies over the decades that have produced cards in Japan but only two of them have done so for an extended period of time: BBM and Calbee. BBM started making cards in 1991 and modeled its cards and business on what American producers were making at the time, which was the high water mark of the junk wax overproduction era. They made a big set and sold it in foil packs like American sets were. Over the years it has basically followed American trends by introducing insert cards, autograph cards and other things for people to chase. It is basically a Japanese clone of an American card company.

Calbee is a bit more interesting though since it has no parallel in the US market. It started issuing cards in 1973, selling them as a promotional item aimed at children that came attached to its bags of potato chips (which is Calbee`s main business).

The interesting thing is that, from that humble beginning in 1973 to becoming probably the most well-known maker of Japanese baseball cards in Japan, do you know how Calbee distributes its baseball cards in 2016?

As a promotional item aimed at children that comes attached to its bags of potato chips.

Calbee has been remarkably consistent throughout the years in keeping its cards and overall business model simple. You buy a bag of chips (which even today cost less than $1) and you get two baseball cards with it (previous years they only included one card, but since 2009 its been 2). There are usually a couple insert sets that might be considered "chase" cards, but they don`t do the expensive memorobelia or other US style rare premium ones. Its a set meant for set-builders rather than for chasing some stuff and throwing the rest out. Set sizes have varied drastically over the years - the 75-76 set boasting almost 1500 cards, while most others generally fall in the 300-400 range.

The designs of the cards are extremely simple (and beautiful): a full bleed photo of the player on the front with almost no other design elements other than the player`s name and team. Calbee sets, particularly from the 1970s which had amazing photography, are among the most attractive ever produced. While they have made adjustments to the design throughout the years, with today`s sets a bit more glossy and printed on a different type of cardboard and in cards of slightly different dimensions, this year`s Calbee set is actually extremely similar to the original 1973 set in its basic design.

One of the things that (to me at least) really defines the junk wax era is that it marked the transition of the US card market from one in which cards were mainly targeted at children in the 1970s (with of course adults also collecting, but not dominating the market for new cards) to one in which adults became the main market that producers targeted. All the producers who entered the market in the 1980s and 1990s were basically aiming their products at a collector`s market whose logic was largely defined by adult collectors, rather than viewing cards as more or less a toy for kids to collect.

So Calbee is kind of the last survivor in the world of a baseball card maker which has kept its core business model - selling cards to kids as a promotional item - the same as it was in the pre-junk wax era. Its almost like an archeological relic from a time long past.

For that reason, as a set collector with fond memories of putting sets together as a kid, I love collecting cards over here because it offers an experience that is more or less extinct in North America now (at least in terms of new sets). The junk wax era never fully wiped out the old way of collecting in Japan like it did in the US.
Great post Sean, thank you for sharing that info. Been too lazy to get it accomplished but I have wanted to pick up some Japanese Hideki Irabu and Matsui cards for a long time.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:59 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Originally Posted by seanofjapan View Post
I live in Japan and collect (mainly) Japanese cards. The development of the card market here provides an interesting comparison with that in the US. Some of the comments in this thread got me thinking of these so I thought I would put them out there just for thoughts.

There have been a lot of companies over the decades that have produced cards in Japan but only two of them have done so for an extended period of time: BBM and Calbee. BBM started making cards in 1991 and modeled its cards and business on what American producers were making at the time, which was the high water mark of the junk wax overproduction era. They made a big set and sold it in foil packs like American sets were. Over the years it has basically followed American trends by introducing insert cards, autograph cards and other things for people to chase. It is basically a Japanese clone of an American card company.

Calbee is a bit more interesting though since it has no parallel in the US market. It started issuing cards in 1973, selling them as a promotional item aimed at children that came attached to its bags of potato chips (which is Calbee`s main business).

The interesting thing is that, from that humble beginning in 1973 to becoming probably the most well-known maker of Japanese baseball cards in Japan, do you know how Calbee distributes its baseball cards in 2016?

As a promotional item aimed at children that comes attached to its bags of potato chips.

Calbee has been remarkably consistent throughout the years in keeping its cards and overall business model simple. You buy a bag of chips (which even today cost less than $1) and you get two baseball cards with it (previous years they only included one card, but since 2009 its been 2). There are usually a couple insert sets that might be considered "chase" cards, but they don`t do the expensive memorobelia or other US style rare premium ones. Its a set meant for set-builders rather than for chasing some stuff and throwing the rest out. Set sizes have varied drastically over the years - the 75-76 set boasting almost 1500 cards, while most others generally fall in the 300-400 range.

The designs of the cards are extremely simple (and beautiful): a full bleed photo of the player on the front with almost no other design elements other than the player`s name and team. Calbee sets, particularly from the 1970s which had amazing photography, are among the most attractive ever produced. While they have made adjustments to the design throughout the years, with today`s sets a bit more glossy and printed on a different type of cardboard and in cards of slightly different dimensions, this year`s Calbee set is actually extremely similar to the original 1973 set in its basic design.

One of the things that (to me at least) really defines the junk wax era is that it marked the transition of the US card market from one in which cards were mainly targeted at children in the 1970s (with of course adults also collecting, but not dominating the market for new cards) to one in which adults became the main market that producers targeted. All the producers who entered the market in the 1980s and 1990s were basically aiming their products at a collector`s market whose logic was largely defined by adult collectors, rather than viewing cards as more or less a toy for kids to collect.

So Calbee is kind of the last survivor in the world of a baseball card maker which has kept its core business model - selling cards to kids as a promotional item - the same as it was in the pre-junk wax era. Its almost like an archeological relic from a time long past.

For that reason, as a set collector with fond memories of putting sets together as a kid, I love collecting cards over here because it offers an experience that is more or less extinct in North America now (at least in terms of new sets). The junk wax era never fully wiped out the old way of collecting in Japan like it did in the US.
Always daydreamed of starting a company called JPC - Just Plain Cards. released in several series with the high numbers maybe being a little shorter printed. Maybe some weird insert set that you can use to play a game or something. Basically I want to start Topps circa 1966 - 1972.

I think the demand would be huge, price would be reasonable because we ain't doing no UV coatings, gold foil, or whatever other crap passes for a baseball card these days. We're using cardboard. Maybe as a nod to the past we'll use two different types of cardboard to mess with people.

If someone were to actually do this I might actually buy a box of cards again.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by seanofjapan View Post
The designs of the cards are extremely simple (and beautiful): a full bleed photo of the player on the front with almost no other design elements other than the player`s name and team. Calbee sets, particularly from the 1970s which had amazing photography, are among the most attractive ever produced. While they have made adjustments to the design throughout the years, with today`s sets a bit more glossy and printed on a different type of cardboard and in cards of slightly different dimensions, this year`s Calbee set is actually extremely similar to the original 1973 set in its basic design.
This reminds me of seeing the evolution of Sports Illustrated covers, which went from amazing photography and very little text on the cover to lesser photographs with six stories teased, which makes for cluttered, confusing and much less appeal to the eye.

On a side note, hasn't the concept of "chase cards" been around for quite some time? I think the concept, at least, was in play as early as the 1933 Goudey Nap Lajoie.
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Old 11-19-2016, 03:24 PM
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I define the 'junk' era, as the time when cards were ridiculously plentiful. To a fault.

I was a 10-box-per week buyer from 1984 to the end of the decade.

The first junk wax box for me: 1985 Topps. Then 1986 Topps, then 87 Topps and Donruss. 88-92 everything.

1993 marks the end of the junk era, again from my observation. 1993 Score is the first set in many years that I wanted to purchase. Are there any 1993 or newer boxes that went/still go for $5?

1990 was the absolute worst year, all-time, for junk cards. All crap. Maybe that's why we all long for the Frank Thomas NNOF. It's the only card from that year that is any fun. Have you looked at the photo of him up close? Very low quality.
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:01 PM
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I define the 'junk' era, as the time when cards were ridiculously plentiful. To a fault.
I guess it could be worse, you could've named yourself Danny Frisella's dune buggy or Lyman Bostock's uncles car.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:03 PM
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I think the element that is being missed here is the makeup of the hobby in the past versus today. By the early 1990s the hobby had grown exponentially. Kids were a huge part of the customer base. Flash forward 20+ years and kids are a tiny fraction of a hobby that may be 10% or 20% of it's size at the peak.

I can remember trying to get my hands on a 1993 Fleer Rookie Sensation Frank Thomas. It was an insert only available in jumbo packs. I couldn't find one anywhere. It was selling for $50 and card shows with 50+ dealers didn't have a single copy. There was just huge demand back then. I could have traded it to my friends for anything in their collection (like a 86 Donruss Jose Canseco!, for instance). Now you can pick one up for $5 on eBay all day long. Looking back it seems like they printed a million of that card. At the time, it sure didn't seem that way.

Sure, regular Topps is still pretty worthless. But my son still likes opening the packs. We focus on individual autographs now. They are available and relatively inexpensive for most players not named Kris Bryant. It's still fun. Even if he is the only kid in his elementary school who collects. We may still be in the junk wax era to some degree. But there is still plenty of cool things to collect.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:45 PM
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I guess it could be worse, you could've named yourself Danny Frisella's dune buggy or Lyman Bostock's uncles car.
Or Moose Haas's magic kit?
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