Hand cut

[Bigb13]

I was under the impression that all hand cut cards could only receive an authentic grade? Just got the new Huggins and Scott auction catalog and I de 1911 baseball bats hand cut with number grades? Or does it make a difference who submits it?

[MVSNYC]

A friend of mine used to own a hand-cut strip card of Joe Jackson, graded an SGC 96...and last week on Pawn Stars they had a PSA 10 hand-cut Ruth strip card...so it looks like both grading companies do give hand-cut cards a numeric grade.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bigb13

I was under the impression that all hand cut cards could only receive an authentic grade? Just got the new Huggins and Scott auction catalog and I de 1911 baseball bats hand cut with number grades? Or does it make a difference who submits it?

I think they just started putting hand cut on a lot of cards. And not that I had anything to do with it but I have been advocating this caveat for years. Edited to add this is also why I don't put a ton of stock in a numerical grade of these cards, to me, it's all about eye appeal. Here is a very recently graded card..

[GregMitch34]

My larger question is--to qualify for a grade, or even an Auth, when does the hand-cutting have had to be done? If I buy a raw strip of 5 cards today, say one with Ruth or Cobb on it (which you can do), and neatly cut it myself today into 5 cards, and submit them, will they be accepted or did the cutting have to be done years ago, and if so, how many years??

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

My larger question is--to qualify for a grade, or even an Auth, when does the hand-cutting have had to be done? If I buy a raw strip of 5 cards today, say one with Ruth or Cobb on it (which you can do), and neatly cut it myself today into 5 cards, and submit them, will they be accepted or did the cutting have to be done years ago, and if so, how many years??

It's all about dimensions.

[AustinMike]

Strictly speaking in reference to Post cereal cards and Bazooka cards, in order to get a number grade, the black borders on the Post cards and the black dashed lines on the Bazooka cards have to be present. If it's cut within the lines, all you can get is an Authentic grade. That is my understanding.

[packs]

I kind of feel like strip cards should only receive number grades when in their original manufactured state (i.e. uncut).

Once a person cuts the cards, even if they're intended to be cut, they are no longer factory issued. They are now hand cut. So I don't see why they should receive a numeric grade.

[abothebear]

but if they are designed to be hand-cut then why not grade the card with the quality of the cut as a factor? As long as they mention that it is a hand-cut issue I don't see the problem.

[packs]

Well what is to keep someone from simply trimming an already cut card to make it look better?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by packs

Well what is to keep someone from simply trimming an already cut card to make it look better?

Nothing, unless the newly trimmed borders are too narrow to receive a numerical grade.

[packs]

That's why I don't think there should be any numerical grades for cards cut by a collector. It's a slippery slope. The cards came attached. Their purpose is irrelevant. Once you cut them apart you've altered them from the factory distribution.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't TPG's only assign authentic grades to cards cut from previously uncut sheets?

[bxb]

From PSA website:

The Grading of Hand-Cut Cards

PSA will grade virtually any card that has been hand-cut off of a panel, box, etc. (Post Cereal, Hostess, Bazooka, Strip cards, etc.) keeping the following information in mind. This service does not include traditional sheet-cut cards. PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion. For example, PSA will not grade a 1979 O-Pee-Chee Wayne Gretzky card cut from a sheet because that card was issued in non-sheet form. On the other hand, PSA will grade a 1959 Bazooka or 1961 Post Cereal Mickey Mantle because those cards could only be obtained in one fashion - removed by hand from a box or panel.

In order for PSA to actually assign a grade to any of the cards that possess visible/defined borders on all four sides, evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue. If the cut exceeds the visible border for the card in question, PSA will encapsulate the card as "Authentic" only. If the card is severely undersized and suffers in overall eye appeal, the graders may deem the card not suitable for authentication or reject the card as minimum-sized altogether.

Keep in mind that, for cards that do not possess visible/defined borders, the cards must still fall within a certain size requirement for that particular issue in order to qualify for an actual grade. In other words, the borders must be virtually full in order for a grade to be rendered. Otherwise, as stated above, a label of "Authentic" will be assigned or, in some cases, the cards may fall short of the size requirement altogether. This is not an exact science. PSA will do its best to provide consistent guidelines for these types of cards.

In addition, PSA will allow cards that have had a coupon or tab removed from the original card to be submitted under this service. For example, if a 1952 Red Man Tobacco card is cut at or outside of the established tab line, the card would be eligible to receive a numerical grade. On the other hand, if the 1952 Red Man Tobacco card is cut inside of the line (the line where the tab meets the interior of the card), then the PSA graders will be precluded from entering a numerical grade. Cards that are cut within the limits established for a particular issue will be encapsulated and designated as "authentic" by PSA. All of the cards eligible for this service will be designated as "Hand-Cut" on the PSA label to distinguish them from the intact, "with tab" or "with coupon" examples.

PSA suggests that, in order to achieve the highest grades, the cuts of the cards should be relatively close to the visible borders without exceeding the limit. Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades. Eye appeal is very important. When it comes to excess paper or cardboard around the edges of the visible borders, the graders will place significant importance on overall eye appeal. Keep in mind that all cards of this type will be designated as "Hand-Cut" on the PSA label for accuracy. In addition, if the customer chooses, PSA will grade and encapsulate entire panels if those panels will fit in any of our current PSA holders. With the exception of the aforementioned items, normal grading criteria will apply.

[brian1961]

...

[packs]

I understand the point of the strip cards. I'm suggesting a way to number grade them in their original state as opposed to looking at margins on hand cut examples that can be manipulated much later.

Toys were issued in packaging. They were made to be played with. Comic books made to be read. Both are worth more money when they weren't used as intended.

[ullmandds]

this has been discussed numerous times...and to me...it makes no sense for some hand cut cards to have a # grade...and some not.

The grading companies have screwed this one up!

[brian1961]

PACKS--

Howdy, bub. When a company, be it General Foods' products such as Post Cereal or JELL-O, Holloways' Milk Duds, Topps' subsidiary Bazooka, Royal Desserts, Milprint, Inc.---with its various customers for whom they designed some of the most elegant trading cards to grace a product package or even the package stiffener, or whoever, printed those free trading card prizes on the back of their packages, they usually told the kids to cut them out and collect them, trade them with their friends, etc.

Simply, they were intended to be cut off the package. The consumer recipient of the free prize now took the place, so to speak, of the printing department cutter to do the final cutting and render the trading card. It is ludicrous to conceive that the cards should always just be left on the package. True, there are very valuable examples of box design cards left on the package. Actually, in some rare instances a reputable third party grader has encapsulated a few of them; an example being a small box of JELL-O from 1962 having the free prize baseball card on the back of the package.

Permit me to elaborate; I shall endeavor not to bloviate.

Vintage postwar regional / food issue box design cards encompassing the product container and a single free prize trading card are in a class of their own. The classiest are those that have been authenticated and encapsulated by PSA and SGC. The class is most high, esoteric, very valuable, with numbers representative of "the favored few". Almost always, they are among the favorites of their happy owners.

Among my own personal favorites are a pair of boxes from a set I referred to earlier, GENERAL FOODS' 1962 JELL-O, a test issue only available in the Chicago-Milwaukee area, on top of everything else. Both specimens are mint unfolded, with the fold lines scored, all ready to be put through the final packaging process. Insanely rare in this form!

With a 1962 JELL-O card cut off the product box, as was done 99.9% of the time, you have a gorgeous regional with numerous differences from the much more common, but still very beautiful, Post Cereal cards of the same year. With a complete, unfolded JELL-O box, resplendent in its SGC holder--we now have a vastly different ensemble that is perfection, in this instance, to a Mickey Mantle baseball card connoisseur. The unfolded nature is extraordinary, as it beautifully expands the card, presenting the full-figured boundaries of the box itself, multiplying the card's appearance without any distracting unwanted excess. Yet, the still small size makes it all the more attractive and desirable. As one appreciates the opportunity to see the complete front and backside of the small three-ounce JELL-O product package size, the eye candy is rich indeed, a nostalgic wonder piece, with simply outstanding ambiance of the time period and the limited time promotion.

The pair I own (Mantle and another player) must have been snatched away from the loading hopper that would have sent all the boxes on their way through the packaging apparatus---to be opened up, the bag of gelatin inserted, and a strip of glue applied to the top and bottom flap. The flaps were then sealed shut. Whereupon the box followed a couple gross of others (288) to fill a case, to be loaded in a delivery truck bound for supermarkets and grocery stores in Chicago or Milwaukee, and their respective suburbs. I saw them at the huge Jewel Supermarket on Touhy Avenue in Skokie, Illinois where I grew up.

Yet against all odds, my pair and an extremely few others (I have seen a Tommy Davis and an Early Wynn) were spared from the final packaging process, with Sportscard Guaranty Company performing their usual outstanding authentication and encapsulation. A 1962 JELL-O unfolded box would stand out in ANY world class collection of postwar regional / food issues. Perhaps I sound as if I'm offering it up for sale; no way. I guess my zeal and passion for the postwar regionals needs to be expressed once in awhile.

If the box was a piece of music, it is the immortal violinist Isaac Stern and his accompanying orchestra playing the magnificent crescendo of the opening title to the movie, Fiddler on the Roof. But then I would hear that glorious music with my favorite dozen Mantles. If this perhaps unique Mickey Mantle prize was a gem, I'm seeing a flawless 500-carat Padparadscha Sapphire. Should you doubt my words, and believe I'm just sticking you with a hypodermic shot of hyperbole, my son uploaded a photo from my book, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

The recent spring, 2015 Robert Edward Auctions sported another complete, but normal, 1962 JELL-O Mickey Mantle box that the original owner had opened and removed the gelatin package to prepare for enjoyment. The box was saved and preserved all these years. It was offered raw, and looked terrific, with the Mantle free prize intact, unspoiled for the most part, and in visually superb condition. Evidence of the growing interest in these esoteric pieces may be seen by the fact the box attracted 18 bids, with the winning bid and buyer's premium coming to $3,300. That's not a milk toast Mantle price guys, nor a world class '52 Topps price, either. Yet, 33 c-notes for an opened 1962 JELL-O Mantle box should cause more than a few of you to raise your eyebrows. It is such a classic conversation piece, as opposed to a mundane bubble gum card of Mr. Mantle, much as I love and respect those mainstream Mantles. By the way, should you wish to check out REA's neat JELL-O Mantle box, it may be found on their web site. Simply type: ROBERT EDWARD AUCTIONS, Spring 2015, Lot # 607.

Back to the general discussion on "hand cut cards". As others have stated, it's all about the quality of the cut. Also, I would urge collectors to strive to find an example with the player photo having outstanding picture registry, and as few print defects as possible. After all, when it comes to trading cards, the picture is the piece de resistance! If there is extra cardboard outside the card's borders that may be carefully trimmed to provide a better appearing cut, and to the point, a higher grade, that is perfectly acceptable. If you wish to call that an unfair advantage, go ahead. You're right. How 'bout that? It's the owner's privilege to upgrade his own raw hand-cut card, to the betterment of its grade, and value. But remember, if he should botch the cut, he scotches the grade, and perhaps ruins the whole thing. He has one chance----"do you feel lucky?", so to speak.

Hand cut cards are among the most special and meaningful to player collectors, because the advanced collectors know how rare they are in high-grade. They are ultra-prized, believe me. I suppose I speak from experience since I own a few of them.

Must go. Hope this helps, mate. Take care.

----Brian Powell

[deltaarnet]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Strictly speaking in reference to Post cereal cards and Bazooka cards, in order to get a number grade, the black borders on the Post cards and the black dashed lines on the Bazooka cards have to be present. If it's cut within the lines, all you can get is an Authentic grade. That is my understanding.

You are right. Per PSA all 4 sides must show lines or you get a A. 1 out of 5 of my Jello cards received a grade the others all authentic.

[Bigb13]

That's great if they have lines a lot or most scraps are Auth but really when you look at some of them they deserve number grades.

Both PSA and SGC have given number grades to quite a few 1965 Topps Iron-On Transfers that were cut from rolls/sheets over the last few months.

These insert "cards" were extremely hard to find in high grade until several months ago when uncut stock turned up; since those uncut sheets were discovered, the high grade population for the star player cards from those sheets (Killebrew and Clemente, in particular) has exploded.

(I'm in the camp, however, that doesn't care whether cards are factory-cut or hand-cut, or designated any particular way on slab labels. As long as they measure correctly and are 100% original, I'm happy).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

..............

(I'm in the camp, however, that doesn't care whether cards are factory-cut or hand-cut, or designated any particular way on slab labels. As long as they measure correctly and are 100% original, I'm happy).

I agree with this but like my hand cut cards to be full sized. I am not in the camp of putting a lot of credence in high grade, cut strip cards. I would guess many were cut very recently which is a turn off to "high grade" for me. But to each their own.....If folks want SGC 96 W515s more power to them. Sharp corners can be made at any time, just remember that.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sharp corners can be made at any time, just remember that.

"Oh that card seems oversized. I'll fix that." Well I'll be.... Now it's Gem Mint

Ugghh

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

"Oh that card seems oversized. I'll fix that." Well I'll be.... Now it's Gem Mint

Ugghh

And I should elaborate on my comment. I like strip cards a lot. I am not positive, but don't believe it is possible to absolutely tell "when" a strip card was cut.

Let me repeat, I really enjoy strip cards AND if folks want to collect high grade ones that is great...it means they definitely look nice, but, they should understand what they are paying for....

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by Leon

And I should elaborate on my comment. I like strip cards a lot. I am not positive, but don't believe it is possible to absolutely tell "when" a strip card was cut.

Let me repeat, I really enjoy strip cards AND if folks want to collect high grade ones that is great...it means they definitely look nice, but, they should understand what they are paying for....

I love the Post Cereal Sets. I need to check my sarcasm level before I get my coffee.

It took me a while to find a McMillan that would grade nicely. Plus that Gem 10 Ruth that was on TV. I just have a feeling more people will be doing the old snip snip.

Originally Posted by Leon

Sharp corners can be made at any time, just remember that.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - are you saying sharp corners can be made at any time while still maintaining correct card size and while also being undetectable to the major grading companies?

If an oversized card is trimmed to its correct/intended size, I don't care (it was done all the time in the 1970s and 1980s, and back then we actually thought of it as a good thing); if a card is correctly and professionally trimmed from a sheet or strip years after its date of issue, I don't care.

If a card is "stretched" and then trimmed, I absolutely don't approve of that - I'd consider that altering/doctoring, because material is being subtracted from the original card. But if it's undetectable, I don't know how you'd combat it. Avoiding cards with sharp corners may reduce your risk, but I don't think there's any shortage of manipulated cards in low grade collections, either.