Mantle 1953 PSA : here is why you should never put cards is heavy screw downs OUCH

[megalimey]

Mantle 1953 PSA here is why you should never put cards is heavy screw downs OUCH

THIS CARD WAS IN A THICK HEAVY LUCITE SCREW DOWN HOLDER
took it out put in a card saver as per instructions , sent into PSA for grading

I always add if no minimum grade given please Authenticate
on any card , as the cost is the same and there are so many trimmed touched up, writing erased or even fake cards,

any way imagine my disappointment just got the grade or non grade it is coming back to me PSA Authentic Altered
maybe being in a heavy screw down for decades may have created an unnatural looking surface / blemishes ?? or something not related ? it has not been trimmed , as there is some slight fraying where you can see surface touches on the back edges and on all 4 corner tips which are not perfectly square or sharp ,

obviously this Mantle with great eye appeal and strong centering, there are no visible creases or wrinkles, looked like at worse VG-EX 4 or EX 5
so potentially a high value card which I was hoping too sell
see the card before and after in the holder
let me know what you think , FYI I am going to leave it in the PSA holder
as I see these selling on ebay , and I think mine looks as good if not better than any of those PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED for sale or sold on Ebay,
I am looking to sell this card , but with no grade , hard to assess a value

[seanofjapan]

Maybe its the discoloration on the front where it says Outfielder and New York? Looks like someone peeled some tape off and pulled a bit of the surface ink off with it or something like that.

Nice card though.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Maybe its the discoloration on the front where it says Outfielder and New York? Looks like someone peeled some tape off and pulled a bit of the surface ink off with it or something like that.

Nice card though.

I thought that but the black type "OUTFIELDER" where those white spots are NEAR looks like there are no signs of ink removal on any letter , hard for tape to be removed with out disturbing the black lettering you would think ,I noticed the white spots and the blotches, but did not think that would prevent a grade being given, or would that be enough to cause PSA to not grade it ?

[Promethius88]

Gorgeous card. Would love to own it!

[661fish]

I don't think they should grade it altered. Makes no sense to me. Why not call cards that have creases altered then?

[peachlander]

I am guessing it is the marks on the red(maybe left by the screwdown?) that they feel "altered" the card...as you know any grading from even the big 3 is a bit of a crapshoot!...irregardless a beautiful card!...please pm me a price if you decide to sell as I am most interested..thanks!

[megalimey]

I am open to offers FYI turned down $900 and have a higher offer on the table

for example
THIS ONE WAS TRIMMED AT THE BOTTOM PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED
and sold for $1900 , I think mine looks better

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...te=1&LH_Sold=1

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by peachlander

I am guessing it is the marks on the red(maybe left by the screwdown?) that they feel "altered" the card...as you know any grading from even the big 3 is a bit of a crapshoot!...irregardless a beautiful card!...please pm me a price if you decide to sell as I am most interested..thanks!

I am open to offers FYI turned down $900 and have a higher offer on the table

AND for example here is a recent sale
THIS ONE WAS TRIMMED AT THE BOTTOM PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED
and sold for $1900 , I think mine looks better

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...te=1&LH_Sold=1

[robw1959]

I remember one time when PSA returned a T206 Cobb of mine ungraded and unholdered due to them considering it being "pressed". I don't know the history of that card, but it could have been in a heavy-duty screwdown holder for quite a while as well, I suppose. Maybe that's what prevented your Mick from getting a number grade, but in any case they should have disclosed the reason to you.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I remember one time when PSA returned a T206 Cobb of mine ungraded and unholdered due to them considering it being "pressed". I don't know the history of that card, but it could have been in a heavy-duty screwdown holder for quite a while as well, I suppose. Maybe that's what prevented your Mick from getting a number grade, but in any case they should have disclosed the reason to you.

I did call them straight away , but they just read of their cheat sheet
and said they would be unable to give a specific reason why it received
authentic altered
and here is a direct quote for a Net 54 member in 2017

11-13-2017, 12:24 PM

bigfanNY bigfanNY


"I had a long talk with 2 graders who sat down at lunch table with me at national. We only discussed 2 issues min size requirement and altered. What they said about altered was most altered cards were placed in heavy plastic screw downs and pressure was applied to the card. Hence the term altered stock. SGC has the same term. I have had cards from Goudey's to 80's rookies get this grade.And for a time I like many used large screwdowns to display cards at shows so I accepted them at their word. Hope this helps.
Jonathan"

so I guess that may be the reason on mine

[Hxcmilkshake]

They really should tell you. Tape removed vs pressed somewhat in a screwdown is a big difference to me.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by megalimey

I did call them straight away , but they just read of their cheat sheet
and said they would be unable to give a specific reason why it received
authentic altered
and here is a direct quote for a Net 54 member in 2017

11-13-2017, 12:24 PM

bigfanNY bigfanNY


"I had a long talk with 2 graders who sat down at lunch table with me at national. We only discussed 2 issues min size requirement and altered. What they said about altered was most altered cards were placed in heavy plastic screw downs and pressure was applied to the card. Hence the term altered stock. SGC has the same term. I have had cards from Goudey's to 80's rookies get this grade.And for a time I like many used large screwdowns to display cards at shows so I accepted them at their word. Hope this helps.
Jonathan"

so I guess that may be the reason on mine

So they measure card thickness?

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

So they measure card thickness?

I could not get an answer from customer service
they just referred me to their website about AUTHENTIC ALTERED

also based on what I have read , with decades of pressure in a screw down
cards can show evidence of pressure , and considered altered ???
its a shame the card has great centering sharp registration , no printers marks
apart from some white spots

[KCRfan1]

Nice card!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Am I the only one seeing the dip in the top border to the left of Mick's head???

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Am I the only one seeing the dip in the top border to the left of Mick's head???

First thing I seen....

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Am I the only one seeing the dip in the top border to the left of Mick's head???

I never really noticed that possible , will inspect it closer when I get it back ? , its not really evident on the back , also would that be sufficient reason to say its altered , who knows , they would not elaborate
the Girl I spoke to in customer service
said many of calls received about submissions are from people questioning grade ?
and why it only got the grade it did, her answer I paraphrased , the card is looked at by more than one grader normally 3 different graders some times four , and the ultimate grade is then decided , if the majority agree on identical grade or in my case non grade , then thats the final determination , with no specific reason given other than an obvious qualifier, if it had one , PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED never come with a qualifier , they just take your money and leave you hanging

[samosa4u]

Here is what you need to do:

Buy some 1953 Topps commons from eBay. Once they arrive, then compare their thickness to your Mantle. If you notice a big difference in size, then there is your answer. If you don't, then there might be another reason why it got rejected.

Originally Posted by megalimey

her answer I paraphrased , the card is looked at by more than one grader normally 3 different graders some times four , and the ultimate grade is then decided , if the majority agree on identical grade or in my case non grade , then thats the final determination

That's bullsh*t - you actually believe that? If PSA had that many graders examining a single card, then you wouldn't see all those trimmed cards sitting inside their holders. Think about it. If the first grader fails to spot the trimming, then at least the second one would catch it or the third grader would catch it, right? It's obvious that only one grader examines the card and he does it very quickly. Let's not forget that PSA has trillions of cards being sent to them each year and it's just not possible for them to have two, three or even four graders examine a single card - they don't have the time for this!

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Here is what you need to do:

Buy some 1953 Topps commons from eBay. Once they arrive, then compare their thickness to your Mantle. If you notice a big difference in size, then there is your answer. If you don't, then there might be another reason why it got rejected.



That's bullsh*t - you actually believe that? If PSA had that many graders examining a single card, then you wouldn't see all those trimmed cards sitting inside their holders. Think about it. If the first grader fails to spot the trimming, then at least the second one would catch it or the third grader would catch it, right? It's obvious that only one grader examines the card and he does it very quickly. Let's not forget that PSA has trillions of cards being sent to them each year and it's just not possible for them to have two, three or even four graders examine a single card - they don't have the time for this!

please do not shoot the messenger , I just relaying what I was told
I did not believe her either ,
also
first of all the first thing I did was check the size against several 1953 cards I had 100% identical , did not check the thickness , do not have a micrometer , maybe being in heavy screw down holder squeezed the stock
but one thing I know If I tried to sell the card raw A i would get fraction of its potential value , (B) most people would question why I did not get it graded , so I did what made sense to me ,
at least its real , and has great centering all round .
I have had 3 decent offers , I wonder if that would be the case if I tried to sell it raw

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by megalimey

please do not shoot the messenger , I just relaying what I was told
I did not believe her either ,
also
first of all the first thing I did was check the size against several 1953 cards I had 100% identical , did not check the thickness , do not have a micrometer , maybe being in heavy screw down holder squeezed the stock
but one thing I know If I tried to sell the card raw A i would get fraction of its potential value , (B) most people would question why I did not get it graded , so I did what made sense to me ,
at least its real , and has great centering all round .
I have had 3 decent offers , I wonder if that would be the case if I tried to sell it raw

Sorry if I sounded a little aggressive.

You don't need a micrometer to check for card thickness. Here is what I normally do: when it's dark outside, I sit next to the nightlight in my room and just compare the thickness of the cards using my loupe. Start by looking at the thickness of all four corners and then start examining the edges. I understand that the Mantle is already encapsulated, but you should still be able to tilt the holder and see the thickness of the corners and edges.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Sorry if I sounded a little aggressive.

You don't need a micrometer to check for card thickness. Here is what I normally do: when it's dark outside, I sit next to the nightlight in my room and just compare the thickness of the cards using my loupe. Start by looking at the thickness of all four corners and then start examining the edges. I understand that the Mantle is already encapsulated, but you should still be able to tilt the holder and see the thickness of the corners and edges.

will try to check it out as you mentioned

but ultimately as they say "it was it is" I will leave it in the holder
and try to sell it as is , thankfully its not an ugly beater (PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED) that I have seen sell for over $500

[campyfan39]

PSA and grading in general sucks IMO
Screw downs are a beautiful way to display cards. In holders the first thing you look at is the label and the "grade"
I remember being with my Dad at a card show in the late 80's or early 90's where there were coins and he said "they will never do that to cards as it takes away the beauty."
Sadly Dad died 16 years ago but thankfully he didn't ever see a graded card. Good luck to you as that is a beautiful Mantle. Screw what some third party says

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

PSA and grading in general sucks IMO
Screw downs are a beautiful way to display cards. In holders the first thing you look at is the label and the "grade"
I remember being with my Dad at a card show in the late 80's or early 90's where there were coins and he said "they will never do that to cards as it takes away the beauty."
Sadly Dad died 16 years ago but thankfully he didn't ever see a graded card. Good luck to you as that is a beautiful Mantle. Screw what some third party says

thanks for the compliment on the card ,
I understand about grading , however having a decent looking 1953 Topps Mantle , a high value card, not graded or slabbed many potential buyers get skittish , and will not pay a premium , or ask why is it not slabbed ??
vintage pre 1960 mid graded NON MINT cards seem to be very consistent in sale price , raw mid grade cards from same era are all over the place in prices .

[campyfan39]

Originally Posted by megalimey

thanks for the compliment on the card ,
I understand about grading , however having a decent looking 1953 Topps Mantle , a high value card, not graded or slabbed many potential buyers get skittish , and will not pay a premium , or ask why is it not slabbed ??
vintage pre 1960 mid graded NON MINT cards seem to be very consistent in sale price , raw mid grade cards from same era are all over the place in prices .

Understood and not criticizing you in any way. I am just an old man in a 46 year old body haha. Good luck with the sale!

[bigfanNY]

Because the OP used a direct quote from me I feel that I must clarify. The cards that I got back from PSA as N9 Altered stock were not in holders. The N in N9 is ffg or non holdered. So whatever the issue with this card is I do not think it has to do with Altered stock.
One card was a 1933 Goudey Ruth so I dont think card valuecomes into play here. An N9 in my experience should not be in a holder.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Because the OP used a direct quote from me I feel that I must clarify. The cards that I got back from PSA as N9 Altered stock were not in holders. The N in N9 is ffg or non holdered. So whatever the issue with this card is I do not think it has to do with Altered stock.
One card was a 1933 Goudey Ruth so I dont think card valuecomes into play here. An N9 in my experience should not be in a holder.

sorry about quoting you out of context
so you think it would be not be slabbed if it was altered stock
so do you have any idea why it was not graded ?? but slabbed
is it because I always request if no minimum grade please just authenticate
or would that not make a difference if it was as you say a N9
because you still have to pay the full service fee , regardless
so what ever its slabbed you could still crack it out if need be
I am going to leaving it in and try and sell it slabbed .

[forceplay sport]

Just curious, when you had it in the thick lucite, was it in a sleeve too ??

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by forceplay sport

Just curious, when you had it in the thick lucite, was it in a sleeve too ??

no sleeve but kind of stuck to one half , static or just pressure did not want to pry it off
turned it upside down tapped top of acrylic and it released ok
i saw the white spots on card while in the holder , and that side was clean no ink residue when card was removed ,

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by megalimey

I never really noticed that possible , will inspect it closer when I get it back ? , its not really evident on the back , also would that be sufficient reason to say its altered , who knows , they would not elaborate
the Girl I spoke to in customer service
said many of calls received about submissions are from people questioning grade ?
and why it only got the grade it did, her answer I paraphrased , the card is looked at by more than one grader normally 3 different graders some times four , and the ultimate grade is then decided , if the majority agree on identical grade or in my case non grade , then thats the final determination , with no specific reason given other than an obvious qualifier, if it had one , PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED never come with a qualifier , they just take your money and leave you hanging

Don't know what you paid on Grading Fee but am assuming it was pretty substantial. To not receive any type of explanation on the "why" question is absolutely ludicrous.

This hobby SO NEEDS an alternative TPG as PSA has long ago run out of their "give a shits"

[megalimey]

Authentic Altered - This means that while PSA is certifying that the item is genuine, due to the existence of alterations, the item cannot receive a numerical grade. The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning. Items receiving the "Authentic Altered" designation, in our opinion, are genuine with the presence of some type of alteration. This is done on a case-by-case basis only

mine could be
Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.

PSA could do better saying what in particular caused them not to grade my card , but with millions of submissions , and my approx 500 total submissions over a 8 year span ,I would be naive to expect tier one top level customer service. Their people were very polite and courteous but unable to give exact clarification

and I have another batch of cards on the way to them , fingers crossed, and FYI none of these were in heavy screw downs

[NYYFan63]

Very nice card


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NYYFan63]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Am I the only one seeing the dip in the top border to the left of Mick's head???

Good catch!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BenitoMcNamara]

You are either user. ___meadows on eBay or bought this from him, I’m not using the full user name because I don’t want to get in trouble with the mods cause I know they don’t want people getting called out. But I’ve had this very exact card in my possession about 6 months ago and sent it back because the top had very clearly been attempted at being trimmed. I also purchased a koufax rookie from this user that was trimmed and I sent back. These purchases were made when I first started getting into vintage and was hoping for the best buying raw cards on eBay that had a great back story that made me think I was getting steal. But I was in fact getting altered cards.
In my opinion, this card was marked altered 1000% because of the top.

[campyfan39]

Originally Posted by benitomcnamara

you are either user. ___meadows on ebay or bought this from him, i’m not using the full user name because i don’t want to get in trouble with the mods cause i know they don’t want people getting called out. But i’ve had this very exact card in my possession about 6 months ago and sent it back because the top had very clearly been attempted at being trimmed. I also purchased a koufax rookie from this user that was trimmed and i sent back. These purchases were made when i first started getting into vintage and was hoping for the best buying raw cards on ebay that had a great back story that made me think i was getting steal. But i was in fact getting altered cards.
In my opinion, this card was marked altered 1000% because of the top.

**grabs popcorn

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by BenitoMcNamara

You are either user. ___meadows on eBay or bought this from him, I’m not using the full user name because I don’t want to get in trouble with the mods cause I know they don’t want people getting called out. But I’ve had this very exact card in my possession about 6 months ago and sent it back because the top had very clearly been attempted at being trimmed. I also purchased a koufax rookie from this user that was trimmed and I sent back. These purchases were made when I first started getting into vintage and was hoping for the best buying raw cards on eBay that had a great back story that made me think I was getting steal. But I was in fact getting altered cards.
In my opinion, this card was marked altered 1000% because of the top.

I am not the ebay user you reference , I am not the Original owner of the card never claimed to be i did not buy this card on ebay
but really what difference does it make whether you owned it or not , I own it now it says clearly it STATES PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED , I am not trying to hide anything it could have been cut in half and stuck together who cares ,
I OWN it now , and when I get it my hands , I will offer for it for sale as is
in a PSA AUTHENTIC ALTERED HOLDER , so yes it could be trimmed at top will clarify when i get it , it could be squeezed , but its real authentic, and a nice looking card , maybe some one will want it for a fair price , if not I will keep it.
thats coming from some one with over 600 posts on net 54 , sold many things, bought many things , satisfaction all round buying and selling ,

[bobbyw8469]

I sold my PSA 5 for $1,100. It looked like an '8'. I wish I had it back.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I sold my PSA 5 for $1,100. It looked like an '8'. I wish I had it back.

wow thats a bargain ?? , PSA VG-EX have sold for a lot more
as well as a Recent PSA Authentic Altered for way more

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Am I the only one seeing the dip in the top border to the left of Mick's head???

I missed it initially but yeah its obvious in the 1st pic...that's gotta be it. It's curved like a v neck t shirt.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk