Show us your "alleged" stolen nypl spaldings...."

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I've sold three Jordan and Co. in the last few years and all had good provenance. I can offer details if anyone cares.

And I wanted to add that like Jimmy, I went to the NYPL in 2005 to do some research before I sold my first two. I also saw the four he cited- two Sam Wrights, a Crossley, and a Hammond. I recall that the Crossley was an alternate pose to the one I had.

This is the back of the Harry Wright with Sam Wright CDV with the paper clip mark noted in this forum.

It is interesting to note that it does not have a traditional NYPL stamp. It is in fact, unstamped-not every item in the collection was stamped.

It's important to note that when you guys are looking at the designation "unidentified cricket player. (Jordan and Co.) 4 photographs of 4." That means that 4 different specimens are actually missing from the Spalding Collection.

The other ones you are referring to are accounted for in the inventory.

That being said and considering the staggering rarity of these CDV's, where are the 4 missing ones and what is the likelihood that Jordans on the market are stolen from NYPL? Where did the Jordans that have been sold come from? This isn't meant to be an accusation-it just needs to be asked. Mr. Sloate said he had some provenance info on these. I think it should be posted.

[oldjudge]

Five years ago I purchased an autographed Stevens cabinet of Cap Anson from SCP. I was later told by Lew Lipset and Rob Lifson that it was from the NYPL collection so I returned it to SCP with instructions to them to return it to the NYPL. I, however, do not see this cabinet on the list. Is the list complete and, by the way, was the cabinet returned? At the same time SCP had sold another cabinet, a signed Wright, to another collector. I notified that collector and he returned that cabinet to SCP. Was that cabinet returned?

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Five years ago I purchased an autographed Stevens cabinet of Cap Anson from SCP. I was later told by Lew Lipset and Rob Lifson that it was from the NYPL collection so I returned it to SCP with instructions to them to return it to the NYPL. I, however, do not see this cabinet on the list. Is the list complete and, by the way, was the cabinet returned? At the same time SCP had sold another cabinet, a signed Wright, to another collector. I notified that collector and he returned that cabinet to SCP. Was that cabinet returned?

I've been told that Jim Stinson was offering that exact same Anson (Stevens), the Wright (AG Taylor) and a Nick Young back in 2003.

[oldjudge]

Freddie--Where does it show that they were NYPL pieces?

[19cbb]

According to the 1987 inventory list provided by Freddie Maguire, only the Anson by Falk was missing at the time.

The 1922 inventory just lists another Anson, without citing the photographer, which I suspect is the Stevens.

Here's a link to the 'Stevens' Anson image that is currently hosted in the NYPL digital library... Not sure if this is a scan of the original or a copy.

http://tinyurl.com/komys2

Btw, the 1987 list has some mistakes like the Jordan and Co. examples which in fact are still part of the collection.

I'll try to make a visit to the NYPL prints and photo dept. in mid September and cross check the original 1922 inventory and the 1987 one which they have by now.

If someone is planning a visit before then, ask the photo room staff (room 308) to provide you the updated inventory list. It's a blue bounded book.

[oldjudge]

Jimmy--That is an image of the Stevens cabinet but not the one I had. The one I had was in very nice shape with an A. C. Anson signature on the back. I had posted an image of it in a thread in 2004 but, although the thread is in the archives, the image is gone (Leon--can this be retrieved?). The cabinet had a Letter of Authenticity from Mike Gutierez which I still may have.

[Leon]

Sorry but on the old board those pics expired after about a week. I know of no way to retrieve them UNLESS they were NOT hosted in the Network54 temp files, then they would still be up though. So, if it's not there now I have no way of recovering it (that I am aware of). This new board is a different story......regards

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Five years ago I purchased an autographed Stevens cabinet of Cap Anson from SCP. I was later told by Lew Lipset and Rob Lifson that it was from the NYPL collection so I returned it...At the same time SCP had sold another cabinet, a signed Wright, to another collector. I notified that collector and he returned that cabinet to SCP. Was that cabinet returned?

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jimmy--That is an image of the Stevens cabinet but not the one I had. The one I had was in very nice shape with an A. C. Anson signature on the back...

All I know is that I've been told that all of them are from NYPL collection and in fact the Nick Young in that group was inscribed "Yours Truly N.E. Young January 6, 1888. Which matches exactly the missing inscription.

Also see: http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...7&postcount=15

[prewarsports]

FYI

Thar Bridgeport photo is not from the NYPL which is why threads like this can be dangerous without proof. I sold that one during the Summer of 2008 and it was from a find on ebay in late 2007 that had nothing to do with Chadwick at all but was part of the estate of a minor league teammate of O'Rourke and his son who is also in the photo. Somewhere I have the name of the teammate. Aside from the fact that I know the provenance of the piece and where it came from, it also was fresh to the market in late 2007 and sold in 2008 and as you say the actual photo was recovered in early 2007 by the library. I applaud your efforts, but you have the wrong photo pictured there. On the bright side, you dont have to worry about any inscription being obliterated because that is the wrong photo and never came from the NYPL.

[Freddie Maguire]

This "$35,000 Beauty" might be my last gift to the board for a while. Might anybody know where this "EAGLE" has landed?

Truthfully, I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of posts on the Spalding collection thread. There has been quite a bit of support for the hunt-even a few personal messages-but thusfar the experts on this board have decided to post nothing.

So, how about a little homework assignment for you good men interested in lending a helping hand.

What say you get those scanners ready and head to your own libraries and do some digging for the sake of the hobby?

I'm taking into account the concerns of some board members worried about unwarranted accusations flying. Therefore, here are some cinch locks:

Assignment #1- Post a scan of page 7 of "The Dodgers" by Frank Graham 1948
-Post a scan of p. 40 and 41 of Irving Leitner's BASEBALL: Diamond in the Rough 1972
-Post a scan of p.37 of Robert Smith's BASEBALL IN AMERICA 1961
-Post a scan of p14 and 15 of the MASTRO Nov 2000 Auction
-Post a scan of p.20 of John Durant's THE STORY OF BASEBALL

These are just a few more dots for you. This is your mission, should you decide to accept it. Good luck.

[benjulmag]

Thank you for posting this thread. It is very interesting and hopefully will lead to some good. Though, I do agree with an earlier post that we must be very careful not to cast false accusations on "clean" items. That is not fair to their owners. Sometimes the perception can become the reality and, with no clear evidence an item might be stolen other than matching an item on the NYPL missing list, I'm not entirely comfortable with displaying such an item.

Your knowledge of 19th century baseball memorabilia is quite impressive, as is your knowledge of past events. In fact, in my 25 years of collecting 19th century memorabilia, only one other name comes to mind of one whose knowledge might be the equal.

While we're on the subject of doing good for the hobby, I would like to respectfully suggest we expand the scope of our mission to include counterfeit items. As I'm sure you know, that is another area that presents quite a problem and where well-intentioned hobbyists can suffer serious financial loss. Maybe we can start a thread listing/showing all items discovered to be counterfeit, both to warn future prospective purchasers to stay away from them as well as to highlight what a sinister mind can accomplish with sufficient expertise and motivation. I would like to suggest that for those items we list/display, we also include their known chain of ownership. That way, if enough items are described, maybe there will be sufficient overlap of identity such that, to use your words, "our detective work will even lead us to the culprits."

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by Freddie Maguire

[IMG]

It's important to note that when you guys are looking at the designation "unidentified cricket player. (Jordan and Co.) 4 photographs of 4." That means that 4 different specimens are actually missing from the Spalding Collection.

The other ones you are referring to are accounted for in the inventory.

I think that's incorrect.

In the original january 1922 inventory list (NYPL bulletin 26) there were only 4 and no more.

Description in 1922 under 'Pictorial Material' at the end of the inventory:

"unidentified cricket player. (Jordan and Co.) 4 photographs of 4."

It looks to me that the NYPL made a mistake and thought the 4 cards were missing in 1987 when they were in fact there all the time.

Those are 2 Sam Wrights, one Crossley and a Hammond.

Just for the record, my 'Jordan' example was found in an album with other new york area photographs, not related to baseball or cricket in any way, or at least that's what I thought at the moment.

Thank the lord that mine wasn't stolen because the seller (which had nothing to do with the hobby o industry) ended up receiving a $25 winning bid from me in public auction.

[barrysloate]

Mr. Maguire- Here is the provenance I have:

In January, 2008 I auctioned a Crossley that was consigned to me by a woman in the midwest named Martha, who sold on ebay under the name mamabroker. I bring this up because she posted several times on the board and some may remember her. Her son had purchased a CdV album on ebay and this one was part of it. She tried selling it herself but pulled it when she had too many offers to close the auction. I spoke with her directly and she ultimately consigned it to me. I have no reason to doubt her story.

In March, 2005, I sold a Hammond and a Crossley in a fixed price sale. These were consigned by a very close friend who is practically a partner of mine. In the early 1990's he was putting together a cricket collection and had forgotten about these until he sat down in 2004 and rediscovered them. He recalls purchasing them for next to nothing, something like $15 each, at a photography show. I likewise have no reason to doubt this story based on our twenty five year friendship. While we don't know how the photo dealer got them, it's a little hard to imagine that someone would risk stealing them to sell them for a few dollars each. Back then nobody even knew their significance.

That's my story, and what I know about the three CdV's.

[canjond]

Barry - FYI I had forgotten you sold one of the Jordans (or 3). That being said, when I first observed Jordans on the list, I wasn't implying that yours were from the collection - sorry f it seemed as so. I thought that was an interesting thing to be on the list because I don't recall that many floating around so may be easier to identify.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[barrysloate]

Not a problem Jon.

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Mr. Maguire- Here is the provenance I have:

In January, 2008 I auctioned a Crossley that was consigned to me by a woman in the midwest named Martha...I have no reason to doubt her story.

In March, 2005, I sold a Hammond and a Crossley in a fixed price sale...

I appreciate you putting that up there Mr. Sloate. Work like this only improves al of our ability to nail down where the stolen items are.

It sure looks like there may be a mistake on the list. But it also look likes they have 5 Jordan's-they have an extra Sam Wright which is identified.

It makes you wonder when the Lifson description from the 2000 sale of the Harry Wright card says "the Harry Wright card offered in this lot was in fact the example saved by Harry Wright for his personal collection" where this personal collection came from. He says it "surfaced in California in 1998". This must have been some collection.

[barrysloate]

It does also seem to me that the listing is in error, since at least four cards are still in the Spalding Collection.

The Harry Wright CdV originated from a Wright family album auctioned by Butterfield and Butterfield, if memory serves. REA was the second person to auction it individually, but the first to recognize its significance. The first seller noted the ticket information on the back, but not the history behind it.