Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[barrysloate]

I always find it fascinating how much collectors will pay for high grade baseball cards when so much can be done to enhance them, much of it undetectable. You would think that there would have to be a very high level of confidence to pay many thousands of dollars for a pristine card, but the only thing that ever seems to matter is the number on the slab. Nothing deters a buyer as long as the label reads 8, 9, or higher. It's an amazing phenomenon.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I always find it fascinating how much collectors will pay for high grade baseball cards when so much can be done to enhance them, much of it undetectable. You would think that there would have to be a very high level of confidence to pay many thousands of dollars for a pristine card, but the only thing that ever seems to matter is the number on the slab. Nothing deters a buyer as long as the label reads 8, 9, or higher. It's an amazing phenomenon.

I couldn't agree with you more Barry. It's amazing beyond rational comprehension and I'll only add that this phenomenon in the Pre-War context also applies to just about all grades - not just 8's or higher.

[barrysloate]

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

It's not that some collectors don't want to know, it's what can you do if you (or anybody else) can't detect it?

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's not that some collectors don't want to know, it's what can you do if you (or anybody else) can't detect it?

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

I understand David, and other people have better things to do also. And keeping the status quo is one of them. The hobby is humming along like a well oiled machine, people are making money, so why rock the boat?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Looking at the Gone With The Stain website, it appears that cards with stains or glue removed were later graded by SGC and PSA:

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/mickey-mantle.html

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/samp...-our-work.html

[steve B]

I don't see a problem with cleaning.

It's very common with museums. The LOC has some excellent articles on specific conservation projects they've done.
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/conservators/

They go much farther than most collectors would. But that's not unusual. In some fields it's almost required. Many old posters are preserved by backing them with linen attached with a rice paste. They're simply too fragile otherwise. LOC also does deacidification to slow the degradation of stuff on acidic papers. (They even tried building a machine to do books in bulk since their collection will take so long to do some of it will be lost)

I'm not sure about alterations that go beyond cleaning and preservation when it comes to cards.
Many of the strip cards probably should get some treatment, deacidification for sure for the ones that aren't already brittle and coming apart.

Removing creases and trimming- isn't ok for cards, especially in a collecting context.
Rebuilding and repainting- I don't see it as appropriate, although in extreme cases it might be. The Wagner that was reconstructed the un done was a maybe. And large display pieces perhaps should be restored.

Disclosure is always an issue. Most museums etc now keep careful records of what was done and how. But that wasn't always true. I believe most very old paintings on display have been cleaned. There's been some debate whether it should be done for some. One side wants the painting shown as it was when new, the other prefers leaving it in a preserved state that keeps the original colors muted as we've come to expect to see them under 300+years of dirt/dust from the air.

A straightforward light cleaning will pass SGC and probably PSA.
Here's the before and after of the one I did. Water only, Q-tip and a soft cloth to dry with. probably close to 100 years of dust and soot. The fine cracks in the papers coating wouldn't come clean without more extensive efforts.

Before



After



Slab aside, which card would you rather own? Who would leave the card dirty, knowing that the dirt would probably cause further damage with time?

Steve Birmingham

[sam majors]

After reading this I am sure that there are three shysters now forming a limited liability corporation. They will specialize in determining if a graded card has been altered, restored or cleaned. Company name will be ARC. They will charge a small fee at first, knowing the lemmings will follow.
Business plan is to hire their children or the kid next door at less than minimum wages to paste labels on the backs of graded cards. To save money and the work load on their sons and the kid next door, they will have only one label printed. All labels will say NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED. The lemmings will follow!
Eighteen months later at "THE NATIONAL" father and son stop at one booth. Son says to Daddy, "Daddy look, here is a PSA 9 Mickey Mantle rookie card!" Daddy grabs the card, turns it over and says, "Son we can't buy this. It has no ARC label."
After hearing this, the dealer immediately rushes over to the ARC booth. Less than 35 seconds later, with a smile on his face, the dealer places the card with the NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED label in the center of his show case.
Next customer says to the dealer, "Can I see that Mantle rookie card? Dealer hands it to him. Customer immediately turns it over, sees the NOT RESTORED, ALTERED OR CLEANED label and says, "I'll take it!"
Another new gimmick!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Looking at the Gone With The Stain website, it appears that cards with stains or glue removed were later graded by SGC and PSA:

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/mickey-mantle.html

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/samp...-our-work.html

That's what I've been saying. If they can remove a stain leaving no detectable evidence (nothing you can see, smell or feel), then how would the grading companies know? Why wouldn't they (or shouldn't they) grade numerically if no evidence is left behind from the process?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

+1. (It's not just you.).