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  #1  
Old 01-13-2008, 08:30 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Being a long time coin collector, I have always been used to seeing a premium being paid for coins with good provenance. For example a coin from the famed Eliasberg collection will sell for quite a bit more that an equal coin with no provenance. Although I do not collect comic books, I see that provenance is noted on many books: Mile High, etc.

As a collector are you willing to pay a large premium for a card that comes directly from a great collection, such as Carter's and is that premium based on the fact that the card is associated with a hobby icon or that there is a less likely chance that the card has been tampered with?

Personally, I would pay a premium for such a card mainly because I would feel comfortable that the card was totally original.

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  #2  
Old 01-13-2008, 08:46 AM
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Posted By: leon

I think the answer is going to be "yes" for most folks. I know I will pay a small premium for a card with good provenance. I don't collect high grade in general but this card, and the ones found with it, had great provenance. I am leery of buying high grade cards without it......This from the last REA auction...(shown many times but still nice to look at)

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Old 01-13-2008, 08:56 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Leon,

What is the provenance behind that card? It is superb example. Is there any reason why SGC did not note the provenance on the slab?

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  #4  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:00 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: leon

According to Rob L there was a group of 6 of these found in a book by his consignor. Since there is no way in the world that (6) D304 Martens backed cards, in pristine condition, could be altered to get that way, I feel very comfortable that they are quite original. It wasn't any kind of large group, or hobby icon that had them, so nothing was noted on the flips. I agree that only rare, special circumstances, should get noted on flips. This really wasn't one of those, imo. regards

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  #5  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:18 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Leon,
I believe what Harry is talking about is when the collection is noted on the Flip I.E. Lionel Carter Collection,The Skydash Collection, The MR "X" Collection. I do believe in some of the collections (baseball wise) that only a few of the collections would really warrant paying a real serious premium. As I have seen alot of the cards really werent in that great condition to start with and to pay a premium just to own that card IMO just because it was once owned by a long time collector when there are many others out there in better condition I think is dollars spent foolishly. Yes I could see owning maybe 1 example from each collection just to say "yes" I own a carter etc. but to over spend just because of the flip that wouldnt be my first priority. The Eliasberg collection is a different story (its coins) and a very prominent collection in the coin collecting world. Leon by the way thats a beautiful card you have there!!!!!!!!

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  #6  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:24 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: leon

We are in total agreement. I was only talking provenance with respect to high conditioned cards. I would pay a very minimal amount (maybe a few percent) to own a card by a pioneer otherwise. My comments were for high grade ones....That is where provenance is important to me....regards

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  #7  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:27 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: boxingcardman

I'd pay more for a card from a well-known collection conclusively ID'd as such, condition adjusted. Burdick and Barker used to write or stamp on their cards. If you offered me a card with some anonymous back writing or Buck Barker's notes I'm going to take the one with Barker's notes. Ditto for a card with an ink stamp versus one with Burdick's stamp on it.

If you are asking whether provenance will be a necessary part of authentication as it is in the art world, I don't think we are going to get to that point.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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  #8  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:49 AM
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Posted By: Neal

I never thought that it would matter to me. I bought an SGC 88 1954 Topps Snider Lionel Carter card for two reasons:

I was looking for the card in high grade (the Duke is one of all timers)
I thought the provenance was really cool!

The card may have been a little bit more, but I didn't care. When it became available, I called the dealer and agreed to his price.

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  #9  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:20 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Al Simeone

Leon,
I agree we are on the same page!!! I would rather have a card just like the one you have in great condition that doesnt have a noted person or collection on the flip then to go out ,spend 2-5x for lets say the same card with someones name on it. Sometimes as we must remember that even if the card came from a prominent collection it may not have started out there I.E. Carter who bought alot of cards from packs and yes those were the ones in superb condition,but he also bought cards from other people and found out that some were trimmed or altered so just to say you own that card from that collection and it comes from a great collection with the flip on it but the card was trimmed, to me to spend 2-5x for it is a bit foolish. In my eyes you should just go on line and find the same card (trimmed) and pay a fraction of the cost. IMO here would be a case of buying the flip but it may not be a great investment. I.E. condition vs name if you understand what Im trying to say.

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  #10  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:46 AM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think provenance as relates to authenticity and state (condition, alteration, etc) will become more important and should.

A simple example is a Barry Halper card that looks the same as in the auction catalog 10 years ago, so you know hasn't been altered or trimmed recently (or probably ever). That the Halper collection is famous likely will had an addition dollar or two to the value.

For some Gem Mint 10 card sellers I would like to say "Prove to me that this card existed in this state one year ago" or "Prove to me that you purchased this card in this grade." If the seller was the trimmer, he couldn't prove the latter. With the Halper card you can see a picture of the card 10 years ago and will have more confidence about the card's state.

Knowing of Lionel Carter and his collecting history and care of cards, collectors will be more confident in the state of a card from his collection.

While authenticity of a card can usually be determined without known provenance, in other areas of collecting provenance is very important. For example, when judging the authenticity of a famous-artist photograph, it's helps to know the photo came from the archives of a magazine the photographer worked for or even from the photographer himself. With a game used baseball jersey, collectors desire documentation from the player, team, team employee or relative. Gives them more confidence the item is genuine. An NFL Auctions COA doesn't itself prove the authenticity, but shows the jersey came from a good source (an NFL jersey purchased from the NFL sounds like good provenance to me).

Collectors create their own provenance (history of ownership and sale) when they pick and chose their sellers. If you purchase a rare card from a trusted and well known seller, say Leon, you are more confident about the purchase. When you turn to sell the card you can tell that you purchased it from Leon, a trusted a well known seller. One reason why I would buy autographs from well known autograph expert Mike Gutierrez is, so when I turned to sell, I could say the autographs were purchased from Mike Gutierrez.

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Old 01-13-2008, 11:34 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Al Simeone

Since we are on the topic of Provenance here is a problem I think will need addressing in the very near future. In this day of hi-tech, and knowing already that grading companies holders and flips have been and will continue to be counterfeited where does that leave Provenance? And again I will state people buy the flip (seeing the collection it came from) and not the card. Im waiting for the day and believe me it is going to happen (If not already) that some of these "prominent collection" cards are fakes. As already been shown how hard is it to make a good flip? How hard is it just to add one of these prominent collectors names to a flip stick a card in it and say "Lionel Carter collection" Might be a perfectly good card lets say a 33 goudey Gehrig for example graded a 4. Broken out of a holder then re holdered with the appropriate collection Barker,Burdick,Carter etc. So now lets say for arguement sake you own a real card (not altered, trimmed etc.) with a fake flip,as we know very hard to keep track of all this flips, and as some of you have already stated "dont mind paying 2-5x more for a card from one of these collections" Now come to find out that the card never really came from the collection to begin with so now you are stuck with a card that cost you 2 -5x what it is really worth.Where is the Provenance in that!

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Old 01-13-2008, 11:35 AM
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Posted By: leon

Easy solution, imo. Get to know the cards yourself and buy the card and not the plastic. I have even heard grading companies say that!! regards

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Old 01-13-2008, 11:45 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm agree with Leon. People who have been in the hobby a long time, whether collector or dealer, will begin to "know" all the famous cards that come from these legendary collections. It will not be so easy to fool them. Perhaps the beginner will be taken, but he can always get an expert opinion.

One of my favorite Lionel Carter cards, just for its sheer impossibility, is his 1938 Goudey Hank Greenberg that grades SGC 98. 38 Goudey collectors know that the set was made on somewhat lower quality paper, and for any card to remain Gem Mint for 70 years is extraordinary. Those kind of cards, with impeccable provenance, will always be famous and never be counterfeited. Lesser ones, of course, may fall out of people's memories.

That's why the whole concept of provenance should be limited to very great and very famous material, and those pieces will be a worth a substantial premium. Nobody is switching flips on the Greenberg, and you will never see it on ebay. As Leon said, experience in the hobby is very important.

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Old 01-13-2008, 11:51 AM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"As already been shown how hard is it to make a good flip? How hard is it just to add one of these prominent collectors names to a flip stick a card in it and say "Lionel Carter collection""


I really hate to say it but the bigger problem is that what we saw were far from "good flips" and not a new type of alteration. It would be very easy to add a name and make a perfect flip...very easy!

It was only a matter of time before these started popping up and the future does not look good for the standard flip. Improvements will need to be made.



Kevin

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Old 01-13-2008, 12:03 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

In judging a card, provenance is used in addition to physical examination. The two should supplement each other, align with each other. One can find error in the other. With a "Television set that belonged to US President Abraham Lincoln" the first half of the sentence disproves the second half. If a flip says "Grade ExMt L. Carter collection" but the card is Vg or a reprint, obviously the two don't align. Also note that most of Carter's collection (including holders and serial numbers) is color picture documented in the auction catalogs.



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Old 01-13-2008, 12:04 PM
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Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry ,Leon,
I agree with you on the "great " cards Im not talking about changing the flip.But I think you are missing my point, what if a fake flip was created for a real,(fake) card. Meaning the card was real but never came from that collection. Im talking about a lesser grade card. All those men had lesser grade cards that were graded for thier collections. So now you pay 2-5x for the flip with the collection name stated on it. But later finding out that the card never was from that collection. Yes you own a real card but not from one of those prominent collections,the card may sit in a collection for years and the person may not know it.

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Old 01-13-2008, 12:13 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think anybody should or would pay 2-5x for a card from a famous collection if it is say an E102 common in VG condition. Why pay any premium at all?

But either way, it's up to the grading companies to improve their product, and if the flips are being faked then they have to work on making them more tamperproof. If they can heat seal the two halves together, they can laminate the flip under the plastic so it is virtually impossible to remove without destroying the holder.

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  #18  
Old 01-13-2008, 12:27 PM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Al Simeone

David,
I agree with you and I know most of the cards are documented but the key word you used is "most" and Im not talking about vg graded that could be exmt or reprints. Im talking about real (faked)cards, or let me say it this way real cards put in faked holders with a faked "prominent collection" flip.
Barry,I do keep up with alot of the great collections and the carter collection might be a bad example to use. Lets say its the MR "X" collection not as well docuemented and cataloged and flips were created.
Kevin I think you are grasping what Im trying to say. As technology gets better I hope the card grading companies are able to keep up with the card technology counterfeiters.

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Old 01-13-2008, 12:45 PM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Mike

Do the graders of these companies know where the cards they are grading came from ? I thought everyone was annoymous(??) If they get a rare card are they informed it was from "Mr. Mint" etc ? Doesn't seem objective to me ?

Another question : When you send a baseball or photo auto to PSA etc. do you send any information about the item with it ? Like "it's been in my family for several generations"?

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:03 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

Duly note that provenance is not just that famous name on a PSA label. Who you buy it from is part of the provenance. As we have learned recently, there can be a difference between a PSA card from Barry Sloate and a PSA card from a Craig's List seller. Barry is part of the provenance (history of sales) and, in this example, an important part.

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:07 PM
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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Mike,

I doubt that the graders koow that provenance. They would not need to. Just ther data person who is responsible for the information on the flip would need to know.

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:08 PM
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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Don't forget non-slabbed cards like those where Buck Barker made handwritten notations on the back. I believe some pay a little extra for those.

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:12 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

David- it's nice of you to put my name in such company, but unless I sell a very significant card it will be long forgotten.

How would anyone track a T206 Matty black cap in SGC 60 I may have sold a year ago once it leaves my hands? It would only apply to something unique or close to it.

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:19 PM
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Posted By: Joe D.

I personally do not care much who owned a card before me.

Unless the person who owned it was the actual player (then it adds value imo).

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:32 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

I was simply pointing out that the immediate seller is part of the provenance, and if buyers don't give a hoot about who they buy from ("Rob Lifson versus eBayer with 03 feeback, what's the difference? The card's got a Mr. X label"), that's a part of the provenance they will later regret not taking more seriously.

The Lifson provenance is more that a historical footnote, but an indication to the buyer and future buyers that the card and holder was inspected and approved by the well known and respected card expert. Knowing this, many collectors will prefer Lifson provenance on an expensive card over Cal Ripken Jr provenance. "Ripken was a great player and I'd like his autograph, but I'd prefer knowing my 1869 Peck & Snyder Reds was checked out by Lifson."

Plus, of course, Lifson went to Wharton and Ripken didn't (50/50 chance Rob's reading this thread).

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:50 PM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Provenance to me matters very much. However, it is more that it comes from a legendary collector (e.g., Lionel Carter). What is equally important is that the collector pulled the card from the pack himself. Be it the '38 Goudeys or the '49 Bowmans or many other issues. Because I know the cards came directly from packs Lionel bought, I have no doubt that nothing was done to them. However, for issues he obtained from other sources, his provenance means little because who knows what the cards went through before they came to him (for example, I understand a number of his T206's are in fact trimmed). I believe that as time goes on provenance will become more and more important. More collectors will recognize the capabilities dishonest people have to alter cards. And in the process more and more cards will undergo the alteration factory line.

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Old 01-13-2008, 02:12 PM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Harry's comment, "Personally, I would pay a premium for such a card mainly because I would feel comfortable that the card was totally original," made me think of two T206s below in my collection that came from Lionel Carter's collection.

Both are graded "Authentic" by SGC. Goode, the one on the left, has rounded bottom corners and never would be confused with a high-grade example, so the "A" designation isn't that big of a deal (IMO). The Easterly, however, has a near-mint appearance. In this case, the grader caught the trimming.

While provenance can be a cool thing to have attached to a card (and I certainly think it is), I'm not sure that's it a guarantee a card is "pure." I remember a few years ago Lew Lipset auctioned a collection that belonged to a prominent, pioneer collector (I don't remember the name and am too lazy to dig out the catalog). This collector had trimmed a huge amount of cards so that they would fit into albums. The trimming in this case was obvious, but the fact is that for many, many years doing such a thing wasn't looked upon in the same way it is today. While I doubt Mr. Carter trimmed the two cards below, my guess is that when he acquired them he didn't give them the scrutiny that a collector would today when searching for evidence of trimming.

So even though these two cards have the provenance of being from the Lionel Carter collection, that was no guarantee they were unaltered (according to the SGC grader, of course.)

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Old 01-13-2008, 02:33 PM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

...and to add to that, each one of these have been trimmed and a corner rebuilt.


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Old 01-13-2008, 02:36 PM
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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Rob,

I just noticed something. Does both of your SGC flips have the same bar code design? It also seems like both of mine are identical too.

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Old 01-13-2008, 02:54 PM
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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Kevin,

Yes, it appears they are the same on mine.

(Edited to add that I'm looking at them with a naked eye.)

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Old 01-13-2008, 07:14 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Rob- it was Don MacPherson.

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Old 01-13-2008, 07:29 PM
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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Thanks, Barry.

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Old 01-13-2008, 08:32 PM
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Default Will provenance become more important?

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Rob,

I should have been more concise. I was mainly referring to the cards that Carter took out of the packs himself, such as Corey's examples. I guess that trimming has been going on for a long time. Does anyone know when is the last time that Carter purchased a vintage card? If he started collecting in the 1930's, I would think that he would have completed his basic T206 set a long, long time ago.

On another subject: GO NEW ENGLAND!

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