Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Disclaimer when I give the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as a reference…I am quoting from the 4th edition. I do not know if any information has changed with new information. Clearly there is some information in the catalog that is out of date. John

John, here's what's in the most recent (6th edition 2016) Standard Catalog for the Bond Bread and related cards.

[Pat R]

The other page didn't load here's that one

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you, Pat R- great work. It is almost the same as the 4th edition going off the top of my head. Thank John

[butchie_t]

The attached scan is from the Sacred 2011 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards Edited by the His Excellency Demigod Bob Lemke.

Page 42 of the hymnal. The write up is word for word the same in both books. The only difference is that the 24 Square-Cornered Cards were dropped from being listed.

Take a look at the bottom of the right side of the scan.... 24 Square-Cornered Reprints.

Things that make ya' go hmmmmmmm.......

Butch

[Exhibitman]

One of the problems inherent in this sort of analysis is that it is inductive: we generalize from specific items to the entire issue. That works to a limited extent when there are limited options. Ted's logic on the issues can be broken down as follows:

I collected the rounded corner, glossier, thicker cards from bags of bread in 1947.

I did not collect the square cornered cards on thinner stock from bags of bread in 1947.

Therefore, the latter were not produced in 1947.

You see the error? Putting it in a different context, I didn't collect 1972 Topps high numbers in 1972, not because they were not produced in 1972 but because I was seven and they weren't available in the two or three candy stores where my parents took me to buy cards in 1972. I got my first ones in 1977 when my aunt in DC sent me a shoebox full of cards she found in an antique store, and they were mostly 1972 Topps and mostly final series 1972 Topps (having multiple Carew, Traded and Awards cards in 1977 in my neighborhood in Encino CA in 1977, not a bad thing).

One thing I like about the hypothesis that Bond licensed the cards from Aarco rather than owning the IP on them is that it fits with the physical evidence that allows for other issues and variations that Aarco licensed, like the 2x sided perforated sheets that were made under the Elgee name. Similar to the many brand variations on the Mendelsohn cards in the 'teens.

Among the variations is the possibility that Bond specified what it wanted for its cards: rounded corners and a specific card stock and finish. My very first books were self-published before on-demand publishing existed, so I had to have them printed and then sell them myself at retail. I sat down with the printer and decided on the parameters of the product: the binding, the paper, etc. That's how printers know what to print. They produce proofs (the uncut cover proof from my first printed book is in a frame at my office), have the customers review them, and nail down the approved specs before they run the items. Printers can handle different stocks and finishes, so it seems reasonable that Aarco could make both cards that are intended for the bread bags and cards that are not, at the same approximate time, depending in the customer's desires. It also allows for the stock variation in the Festberg find: different specs. Rather than allowing for this possibility, Ted went with the exclusive conclusion he favored.

The Cooper thing is another inductive leap that never sat well with me. Cooper with Cincy, that's an anachronism for a 1947 card, but Cooper with NYG is not. An earlier potential does not rule out a later one, only vice versa does.

Also, I brought to Ted's attention that there are movie stars with the same rounded corner-different stock. He was surprised to hear this. Again, he never saw them so he was unaware of them. Understandable since we were just kids when we got our various product cards out of the bags. I never knew there were two editions of the Kellogg's ATG 3D cards, because I got mine from Danish Go Rounds (my mother's idea of a breakfast) in 1972 and had never seen the 1970 Rold Gold pretzel cards. Why? Because we didn't buy Rold Gold pretzels in 1970. Visual Panographics made both sets using the Xograph technology and licensed them to different companies at different times with just the copyright dates changed.

Now, before anyone leaps to Ted's defense because he isn't here to defend his positions himself and I didn't challenge him when he was alive, a word of explanation is in order. Ted was aggressively adamant about his analysis, and I (and other collectors who discussed it back in the day) did not consider it to be a worthwhile use of time and energy to battle with him over these rather arcane issues. When dealing with Ted, the least disruptive course was to inject facts when possible and not engage in the melees that invariably followed flat-out telling him he was wrong.

On the issue of the Standard Catalog, a bit of context may be useful. The catalog was put together by Bob Lemke using the work product of "principal contributors". Like me. Around 20 years ago, I got sick of the same BS in the Exhibit card listings year after year and Bob offered to let me try to fix it. The way Bob did it, pre-digital, was to send out a printout of the listing and you would annotate it and send it back. I fixed a lot of problems with the listings and added in a lot of variations, but my work was incomplete and sometimes inaccurate. That's the nature of the beast: we all try to build on and refine the work of our predecessors (shout out to Elwood "Woody" Scharf here). There was also a limit to what the editors of the catalog would or could fit into the header, so the catalog was not a place for nuanced discussions. Nobody who was willing to do the work knew anything more, so my version got into print and stayed in print. My work with the issues in my Exhibit book was partly done to better document and explain these cards. In other words, what has become 'canon' with collectors via the Standard Catalog is merely the collective work of collectors like me. It isn't fixed, it isn't divinely inspired, so it isn't the final word on any subject. There is only one final word on a subject, and we all know who has it: our wives.

[Johnphotoman]

Thanks, Exhibitman, My upcoming post deals with much of what you just said. I
will make many of the points you just did. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

Here I will go over cards we can disqualify or rule-out in my opinion as Bond Bread…and cards that have been described or called the 1980 Festberg find.

These BB and Festberg cards are associated with Bond Bread cards…just because they share the same images. In fact they share the same script in the names on the cards, right down to the misspelling of their names. As we can read in (6th edition 2016) Standard Catalog) thanks to Pat R. This is where the hobby has made the mistake in identifying the true Bond Bread cards. Somehow because a set looks like “Bond Bread” cards and has the same images they became Bond Bread cards. Just because cards look alike does not make them the same.

Let’s nor forget that Bond Bread did not manufacture or print their own cards. They had to get permission to use the images on the cards. The company or people who had the images, probably licensed out those images to many different people and organizations to use.

It could be that Aarco playing card company had the rights to the images (license) and is the printing Co. that printed up all the many varieties of cards we have. But that is just a theory. We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used.

So what are the cards we can rule-out as Bond Bread cards? Any cards that were not inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. Except the Jackie Robinson 1947 Bond Bread 13 card issue.

We can rule-out any of the box set cards:

1 Set of 48 issued in four boxes of 12 (Series 1-4) labeled “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects.” single sided, printed on bright white stock, die-cut corners (round). These are the original cards printed in 1947 before Bond Bread contacted Aarco Playing Card Co. of Chicago. The cards appear identical to the Bond Bread cards inserted into loaves of Bond Bread, the only difference is the paper stock. It is my guess that Bond Bread asked for their cards to be produced in the same manner, but with different stock, (cream white stock) using the same image.

2 Set of 48 issued in four boxes of 12 (Series 1-4) labeled “Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects. Single sided, printed on bright white cardstock with “rounded” corners, the same stock as the Sports Star Subjects cards are one.

3 Perforated sheets squared corners:“ 46 trading Cards Assorted Subject- Sport-Hollywood-Cowboys” These cards were distributed through businesses like Hess Shoes in Baltimore Maryland.

Perforated, dual-sided cards issued in Sheets these sheet have pictures on front and back. These cards are known as “W571/D305 1947 Bond Bread perforated, due-sided cards”. Although this set was given the title of Bond Bread cards in the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards-4th edition as “W571/D305 1947 Bond Bread perforated, due-sided cards” The very set Ted Z implied were 1949-1950 Sports Star cards. I guess he did not know that the cards were given the title of Bond Bread in the catalog, (4th edition). Ted Z did post his information in 2009, I do not know if the cards were designated as W571/D305 cards in early catalogs. If someone has a catalog from 2009 or older can you check and post what it does say.

No doubt you're wondering how can I rule-out the W571/D305 cards as Bond Bread cards? When in fact they are given that title in the catalog. Because we have new facts, we know the perforated, due-sided cards were given out as whole sheets. Under the name of “46 Trading Cards Assorted Subject- Sport-Hollywood-Cowboys”. Not as Bond Bread.

Please note my comments: "We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used." ....Should read- It is believed that the Exhibit Supply Co., printed the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, but this is now debatable..



I do plan to go over the differences in the variety of paper stock used, up next the Festberg cards.

[Exhibitman]

"We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used."

We do? I've never seen any evidence of that. The physical characteristics of the cards do not match ESCO products. Please elaborate.

[Johnphotoman]

This information about the Exhibit Supply Co. printing what we call "Bond Bread Exhibit"" -come from old-timers I have talked to, many different articles I have read. I do not believe I have seen any of the information challenged. But I have not done any research into them. I just assume the information I had was correct since it's backed up by so many people.

Looking back, and reading some of what you have posted, I will update and edit my comments. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Maybe you can post what you know and understand. I find it to be very interesting. To tell you the truth I never really believed the Exhibit Supply Co. were Bond Bread cards. Thanks to you, not only is there the possibility that they are misclassified and identified, but it is possible The Exhibit Supply Co. did not print the cards.

Thanks John

[Pat R]

I'm not claiming that this necessarily pertains to the "Exhibit Bond Bread" cards but here are some ads for cardboard from 1946-47 that is the same size as Exhibit uncut sheets.


Chicago
Exhibit Supply Co. Chicago_Tribune_1946_04_14_72.jpg

Detroit
Exhibit Supply Co. Detroit_Free_Press_1946_04_29_Page_18.jpg

St. Louis
Exhibit Supply Co. St_Louis_Post_Dispatch_1946_04_26_Page_39.jpg

Chicago
Exhibit Supply Co. Chicago_Tribune_1947_08_13_44.jpg

[Johnphotoman]

Very interesting, the P. C. Smith, Exhibit Supply Co. looking for cardboard, this shows just how much paper was in short supply. I refer you to post #63. "In 1947, paper was considered extremely scarce due to the aftermath of World War II."

But what I do find more interesting is in the last ad, they are looking for printers to print there two color post cards, asking for Letterpress Printers, it says they will furnish stock, ink and plates.

Letterpress Printers do not use plates. Offset Printers use plates, Offset press did print a lot of post cards in 1940s and up. I was in printing for 40 years, I started out in Letterpress printing. John.

[Johnphotoman]

Exhibitman, Here are some of my notes, In 1947 , the ESCO, Exhibt Supply Co. in Chicago produced baseball exhibit cards. Esco printed post cards size cards that were usually black and white. Sold the cards in penny arcade machines.
Some catalogs from that time suggest they produced sets of 32 or 64 cards each yeard., resulting in about 465 cards total. I do not have the source from where I save this information. They produced Exhibit cards from 1920-1960.
The Standard catalog of vintage baseball cards- List W461 Bond Bread Exhibits.

This popped up on my search today:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/757388

https://www.deanscards.com/c/837/194...9jMvJjc1z4btMr

I Just did a Google search: AI Overview

In 1947, the Exhibit Supply Company (ESCO) primarily printed trading cards featuring popular movie stars and athletes, which were dispensed through their vending machines located in various establishments like theaters and soda fountains; these cards are often referred to as "Exhibit Cards" and are considered a collectible item today.
Key points about Exhibit Supply Company cards in 1947:
Variety of subjects:
The cards featured a wide range of celebrities, including Hollywood actors, actresses, athletes, and sometimes even pin-up models.
Vending machine distribution:
These cards were designed to be dispensed from special vending machines owned by ESCO, which were placed in public locations.
Frequent updates: New sets of cards were printed regularly, ensuring a constant supply of fresh content for collectors.

It is this kind of information where I had drawn my conclusions from. John

[Johnphotoman]

Information on the old Ted Z thread appears to be mishandled, misquoted and misdirected.

Quotes for Ted Z:

Post #8 “There is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. When you compare these cards, you'll immediately notice......the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.”

At first Ted Z called the Sports Star cards an unknown set from 1949 -1950.Where does he get the date of 1949-50, I have come to believe it just so Ted Z can say the other card sets can not be from 1947?

The unknown set…has a toned effect, Ted Z used this description a lot, almost on every card that was not a Bond Bread card. (has a toned effect). Stay with me, I will explain this tone effect.

Post #11 “Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The
Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower.”

Ted Z called these square cards- (SQUARE card counterpart)
1949-1950 Sports Star cards, he went on to say “note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart”. Yes they were different in size, because there were perforated, due-sided cards; they were not 1949-1950 Sports Star cards. We have to ask…why he did not show the backs, (toned effect) because they were printed on two sides, there was no toned effect, I am sorry, but he had to know what he was saying.

Post #53 “it's my understanding that only 24 cards (22 bb and joe louis & primo carnera) were in the sets that dave festberg sold.is this true for the set you have? you may be right about the cards in festburg's "find" not being "reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem i have with the "festburg cards".

He then says, “Note the difference in the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card.”

Where did Ted Z get his understanding that there were 24 cards in the Festberg cards? He did say they might not be reprints. He says note the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card.” Stay with me, I will explain the so-called discolored cardboard.

Interestingly enough Ted Z did post images of the backs of the cards to show us what he was talking about, as he called them; 1947 Bond Bread, 1949 Sports Star Subject, and the Festbutg find. All have white backs except the Festburg cards, they have what Ted Z called discolored cardboard.

Post #72 “I'm still researching this Sports Star Subjects set. I have yet to find any of the 4 packets containing 12 cards each
that these Square cards were sold in. I've seen (or had) several of the individual cards (including the Walker Cooper card). Here's my Rizzuto and a sample of the Movie Star issue (circa 1949-1950.” I have a near complete set of the Movie Stars.”

Then he says, “Refer to post #8 in this thread to distinguish the original (1949) Square cards from the "Festberg find" Square reprint cards with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).”

He never saw the Sports Star Subjects sold in boxes, therefore everybody who has seen them must be wrong. Where does he come up with a 1949-1950 date for these cards? The Sports Star Subject cards are from 1947. Notice he says,”
The original (1949) Square cards are from the "Festberg find" Square reprint cards. Reprints? Is he implying that all square cards are reprints and from the Festberg find? That just doesn't make any sense. Maybe I am misreading it.

What have we gained from all this: Ted Z implies there are original (1949) Square cards - that are from the "Festberg find." But are some kind of reprints.

What are we to do, to refer to post 8 to distinguish the 1947 original Festberg, from the 1949 subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. (“Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects” cards.)

How do we distinguish between the two? By the backs. “with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).”

In this statement Ted Z implies that the unknown square backs are toned, not the original Festberg cards.This does go against all the images we have for the (unknown square backs) -which we now know are the “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects” cards. Every image has white backs.
Note what Ted Z said in post #53, the Festberg cards had discolored cardboard.

Maybe Ted Z misspoke… I can tell it is hard to keep everything straight, I myself have placed wrong images with wrong information in this thread. But I always have tried to fix it. With Ted Z, it's like he wants to twist the information on purpose. Not to speak Ill of the dead. That is just my opinion.

Post #136 “These Bond Bread (Rounded corners) cards were available from Bond Bread packages to us kids in my neighborhood in 1947 and 1948. My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available
in our neighborhood. Rounded or Square, these 48-card issues were printed on good quality cardboard which has remained WHITE for almost 70 years.”

“Circa 1980, David Festberg (hobby dealer) discovered in a North Jersey warehouse a box (or boxes) containing 1000's of B/W (Square cornered) cards similar to the above cards. However,

1....there were only 24 (of the 48) subjects in this find.

2....these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues.
And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE.

Furthermore, when you compare the original cards (1947 & 1949) with the cards from Festberg's find, it's quite obvious that the original cards have a noticeable B/W contrast. Where the Festberg cards' images are somewhat "faded"....indicative of reprints.”

Ted Z said, My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available in our neighborhood.
What about the people who said they had collected these square cards in 1947. Oh that's right, those square cards were never available in his neighborhood, therefore they were only available only after 1949.

Where to begin- “these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues. And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE. I have personally gauged the paper stock with a micrometer and they are the same, yes some feel a little thicker, but they are not.

Notice that the backs are toned and not the so-called discolored cardboard. The next statement # 2…takes the cake, go back and read it for yourself.

Post #212 “As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from
The "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in your scan has a toned back (as I suspect)
it has been faked to look like an original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.”

Ted Z shows us images of the toned backs of the Festberg cards look like. Ted Z called the card in question a fake because he thinks someone rounded its corners. Wrong it is just part of the die-cutting process, cards do not always come out the same every time. In spite of what Ted Z says, he even posted images right from his collection that look just like the sample from Gobucsmagic74. Again he says “The re-printed (24 cards) from The "Festberg find" More on this later.

Ted Zanidakis and others had posted about the backs of the cards many times…as the way to tell some of the BB sets apart. I do believe this is right, we have enough samples of images to go by. I believe we now can begin to separate the cards into what group a card belongs in.

I want to concentrate on the statements: The 1947 cards are slightly thicker, and the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.

Too bad Ted did not use a gauge to see the thickness and not go by how thick they feel. You would think if the cards were going to be inserted into loaves of bread they would be thinner. As many people had attested to in the thread. I can not find the post, but many people said the Bond Bread cards were actually thinner than the other cards they collected. There are those who did not agree with Ted.

Now as for the “1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.” There was no tone effect, just different color paper stock, the images provided in this post will prove this out. A toned card would not be so evenly toned through the card. From what I can deduce some cards were printed on white stock, bright white stock, Ivory color stock, gray shade of stock. You can see some toning on the images, but it is what you would expect cards to look like from 1947. Yes it is hard to tell the color of cards by just looking at the images on a computer.

Now let’s look at what Ted said about the Festberg cards: “As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from the "Festberg find" have toned backs.” No, wait he said, the Festberg cards had discolored cardboard. Just as long they were no white. His own images show that the Festberg cards were printed on Ivory, or Beige Paper Stock. We have many images not just from ted Z that show this.

Therefore we can rule-out all the cards printed on any other paper stock than Ivory or Beige stock. Like the cards butchie t posted. In the next post I will go over these cards in more detail.

Quote from Post #412 -from butchie t: “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

This question is for butchie t: how did you come to believe your cards are from the Festberg find? I will have more questions in upcoming posts for you butchie t. John

Images- first is Bond Bread and Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects. second Bond Bread and Festberg. third is Bond Bread, Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects, Festberg. forth squared Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects. Remember the images are not true colors, you need the originals to see that, use for comparison only.

[Johnphotoman]

Images of the Festberg cards, look at how the images can appear different in color. Understand the images we see are not the true color. But we can use these cards as a guide, if you see Ivory or Beige color cards- I would place them in the Festberg find. John

PS the image in the middle shows a Bond Bread card with a Festberg card.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Exhibitman, Here are some of my notes, In 1947 , the ESCO, Exhibt Supply Co. in Chicago produced baseball exhibit cards. Esco printed post cards size cards that were usually black and white. Sold the cards in penny arcade machines.
Some catalogs from that time suggest they produced sets of 32 or 64 cards each yeard., resulting in about 465 cards total. I do not have the source from where I save this information. They produced Exhibit cards from 1920-1960.
The Standard catalog of vintage baseball cards- List W461 Bond Bread Exhibits.

This popped up on my search today:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/757388

https://www.deanscards.com/c/837/194...9jMvJjc1z4btMr

I Just did a Google search: AI Overview

In 1947, the Exhibit Supply Company (ESCO) primarily printed trading cards featuring popular movie stars and athletes, which were dispensed through their vending machines located in various establishments like theaters and soda fountains; these cards are often referred to as "Exhibit Cards" and are considered a collectible item today.
Key points about Exhibit Supply Company cards in 1947:
Variety of subjects:
The cards featured a wide range of celebrities, including Hollywood actors, actresses, athletes, and sometimes even pin-up models.
Vending machine distribution:
These cards were designed to be dispensed from special vending machines owned by ESCO, which were placed in public locations.
Frequent updates: New sets of cards were printed regularly, ensuring a constant supply of fresh content for collectors.

It is this kind of information where I had drawn my conclusions from. John

None of that ties ESCO to these cards. More important are the indicators that these are not an ESCO product. The 'Bond Bread' cards are on a different stock and have different dimensions than Exhibit cards. Physically, there is nothing to tie them to the ESCO products except approximate size. Also, every example of an ESCO product that was made for a specific promotion for another company uses the ESCO base set with a back-printed ad: Dad's Cookies, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Triple Nickel Books. Some have stamped backs, like the Holloway Black Cow Sucker promotion. The only Exhibit cards that look remotely like these are the Canadian cards from 1953 and the origins of that set are not entirely clear. It uses ESCO-created images but they are 2nd generation with a number added in a small diamond at the bottom:

[Johnphotoman]

Exhibitman- I was not showing proof that ESCO -printing the Exhibit cards, I was just showing you why I did believe that the Exhibit cards were printed by ESCO. I now believe that we can say we do not know who printed the Exhibit cards. John

[Johnphotoman]

Ted Z did post the backs of four cards, in post#32. I reposed them here. But it
would be best to go back to the original post for a better look.

As he called the cards:
1 1947 Bond Bread
2 1949 Sports Star Subject
3 1947 Bond Bread
4 card from Festburg find.


Notice the Bond Breads cards are cream white. 1949 Sports Star Subject card is also a cream white. But the Festburg card looks more Ivory or Beige. What Ted Z called toned. John

[Johnphotoman]

To go along with the four cards Ted Z posted; there is also the 1947 original “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects.” and the “Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects". Both of these sets were printed in 1947 before Bond Bread cards, on bright white stock. John
Below are two Collectors & Traders cards, on bright white stock, compared to Bond Bread, and Collectors & Traders on cream white stock.

[Johnphotoman]

Post # 28 by David M- "Ted, I was one of those that bought a "set" from David Festberg back in the 1980's. I believe it is unlikely that anyone reprinted these cards and then stuck them in a warehouse. It seems more likely that they were leftovers from the "Sports Star Subjects" issue that Mr. Festberg then found stored. You said the cards David sold were inferior to the originals in print quality and contrast but how do they compare to the "Sports Star Subjects" cards. Are they the same? I guess that leaves us with the other question. Where do we think the combo cards came from?"

Ted Z responded in post #32 To David M. "You may be right about the cards in Festburg's "find" not being "Reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem I have with the "Festburg cards".


I will go over the (illustrated images) posted by Ted Z in the next post. John

[Johnphotoman]

Post #32. Ted Z posted the images below. The first image he says is a 1947 Bond Bread card. The second image he says is from, 1949 Sports Star Subjects. The third image he says is 1947 Bond Bread card. The forth he says is, from the Festburg "find" card.

Ted Z- “however, illustrated here is the problem I have
with the "Festburg cards". I do not see a problem with the quality of the image on the Festburg cards. But the image he posted as 1949 Sports Star, you can see poor print quality on this, perhaps he named the cards wrong, it happens…I have done it.

Therefore, let's go on the premise that the Sports Star card with poor quality printing was to be the Festburg card. For one, that is just one image showing poor quality printing, there are many other images of the Festburg cards showing good print quality. We went over how the printing process can account for bad print quality in a run.

But take a good look at that image, (second image). They card does not look like a poor image card ,but I believe it is a forgery -it looks like a digital copy of the first. He posted side by side images, again the first image he says is 1947 Bond Bread, the second is a 1949 Sports Star Subject card. If this is true, then the Sports Star card shown, could be a digital copy. John

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Quote from Post #412 -from butchie t: “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

This question is for butchie t: how did you come to believe your cards are from the Festberg find? I will have more questions in upcoming posts for you butchie t. John

John,

My answer to you on the 'why I believed' is based on:
1. Ignorance
2. Not enough information coming into that thread back then.
3. The letter I received when I was a member of the Baseball Card Society. Assumption my my part connecting Festberg to my card set.

Excerpt here (Page 2 of what I called the Feldstein Letter(he wrote it.):

"All the baseball cards they produced that weren't put in bread
packages were stored in a dusty warehouse and, quite literally,
forgotten about when they went out of business. Many years later a
famous collector discovered the cards in the warehouse and snapped up
all of them. He died a few months ago and his widow offered us the
card sets that remained. "

///Question: Has there ever been a determination of who this famous collector is? (Since it was possibly not Festburg?)///

In my quest to find out more about this set I bought back in 1990, I searched and came across this website... And the famous or infamous thread on the Bond Card questions. Based on what I read and my ignorance, I applied the find to the Festburg Find.

I joined the site at that time and made my initial posts of what I had purchased.

I could not tie the color of back of my cards to anything substantial, so, I figured Festburg was the logical fit at the time, based solely on the thread.

While I may have changed my opinion since then, I'm still not exactly sure the origin of what I have. That is just me either hoping or injected doubt from additional information that has been discussed after that thread was basically closed.


One thing I have outstanding questions I have not seen discussed is card stock used and the thickness of a card stock from a bond Bread card verses a Sports Star Subject set, verses a Festberg find card.

My thoughts on this:

1. All three card stock thicknesses are different.
2. Bond and Sports card stock measure the same thickness
3. Sports card stock and the Festberg card stock are the same thickness.

There is probably another option here but I would believe that card stock and the thickness of that card stock can be a data point to rule in or out certain items.

And from all the above, my own selfish reason that I want to believe the set I bought can be designated and dated to the 47 era. Thus making my cards worth more. Right now they are a $255.00 oddity. Still ain't selling them though.

Butch Turner

[Exhibitman]

I try to follow the physical evidence as best as I can when it comes to card classification and analysis. All of the anecdotal accounts not directly from the speaker's own experience are just hearsay. Ted said he got his cards out of bread bags in 1947, that's entirely credible eyewitness testimony. Sone guy telling some guy that a third guy told him something, not credible evidence.

[Johnphotoman]

Exhibitman- I do agree with you about credible eyewitness testimony. I talked to old-timers who said they collected Exhibit cards from Exhibit (ESCO) arcade machines. Images like the images we call Bond Bread, this is a credible eyewitness account, not some guy telling some guy who told me.

That is why I never really believed the Exhibit cards were Bond Bread cards. This is not proof that ESCO printed the Exhibit cards. But - that the images on the Bond Bread cards were used on other printed cards.

Back then I never kept good records like, the names or places on who told me what. My notes say something like this: I met this guy at the Eastpoint show who said, “I remember getting cards that looked like that from the Exhibit penny arcade machines.” This is after I showed some 8x10 black white photos. Since then I have matched many of my photos to BB cards, I am talking about the exact same images. Like Exhibit cards, but photo that match the cards. John

PS I will post the images that I believed I showed, if this would help.

[Johnphotoman]

Exhibit card: Notice it says- An Exhibit card in the bottom left corner, and Made in the USA in the bottom right corner. John

[Johnphotoman]

This is the photo I have. It is an 8x10, John

[Johnphotoman]

Photo and Exhibit card.

[Johnphotoman]

Today, looking over the information and trying to put together the next post: as you guys know, I am gathering information as I go along.
I stumbled across something today that I would like to look into. If anybody has cards of Screen Star Subjects can you please post those images of the front and back of the cards, along with how and when you collect them. John

[DaughterFestberg]

Hi this is David Festberg’s daughter, I’m trying to track him down. Does anyone have any information where he is and how I could get in touch?

[Exhibitman]

"An Exhibit Card" is on the new cards in the 1949 print run. Some cards were run multiple years. Some the company scratched out the legend and ran the cards again:





And as long as I am on it, the base images used to make Exhibit cards were hand-edited and annotated. Here are a few:

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

"We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used."

We do? I've never seen any evidence of that. The physical characteristics of the cards do not match ESCO products. Please elaborate.

Exhibitman- very nice Exhibit cards. I think there is some confusion by what I said. I never thought that the Exhibit cards were Bond Bread. I did not mean to imply that Exhibit cards were the same as the Bond Bread cards. What I said was: "Let’s nor forget that Bond Bread did not manufacture or print their own cards. They had to get permission to use the images on the cards. The company or people who had the images, probably licensed out those images to many different people and organizations to use.

It could be that Aarco playing card company had the rights to the images (license) and is the printing Co. that printed up all the many varieties of cards we have. But that is just a theory. We know the Exhibit Supply Co., printed up the 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, which has many of the same images that Bond Bread used."

I only used the term (1947 Bond Bread Exhibits), because that is how they are identified. The point that I was trying to make ... is that Aarco playing card company printed the Bond Bread cards, and ESCO printed the Exhibit cards, which are identified as 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits. I am sorry If I imply that Bond Bread cards and Exhibit cards were the same.

My question goes back to my point... does this mean the Exhibit cards shown here are from ESCO? And Does this imply - that they printed the Exhibit cards, classified as 1947 Bond Bread Exhibit? Can you clarify? Thanks John.

[Johnphotoman]

butchie t- In post #2 through #15 in this thread, we were having a conversation on a set of cards you purchased back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society.

Question: In the original thread posted by rdwyer-post 200, he posted a letter from the Baseball card society. Do you remember that letter and is it the same letter you posted in this thread #15?

Question: Do you remember Ted Z's response to that letter?

I quoted Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter in the original thread in post #12 of this thread. I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word.
For some reason I can not find that post by Ted Z, but this is what he said about that letter.

"This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in its text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

I read the letters, and nowhere does it say anything like Ted Z said!

Question: Am I wrong or am I missing something here? And is it because of what Ted Z said about that letter: you said in post #412- “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

butchie t, I believe you have a different set of cards, then the ones we see all the time, and they are definitely not from the Festberg find, more to come on this, I will explain. For now I await your answers. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

Original post 384: We can use this as a guide.

Quote: UK Card Guy: “I recently picked up a lot of 7 "1947 Bond Bread cards" fairly cheaply. (I also got a couple of 1948 Kelloggs Pep cards with the lot). Based on this thread, I think only my Sheldon Jones is a true Bond Bread with the others being Sports Star Subjects

From what I can tell from the images; all the cards are from the Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. The backs look like they are Ivory in color, to me, if they are white then yes they are from the Sports Star Subject. All but the Sheldon Jones card, that is, we don’t have a good image of the back, but it could be a Sports star Subject card, it does look white, but if it has a cream white back, it would be a Bond Bread insert card. Sheldon Jones card is the fourth card with round corners. John

[butchie_t]

butchie t- In post #2 through #15 in this thread, we were having a conversation on a set of cards you purchased back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society.

Question: In the original thread posted by rdwyer-post 200, he posted a letter from the Baseball card society. Do you remember that letter and is it the same letter you posted in this thread #15?

I remember that letter and it is the same on I have and posted later in that thread.
https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...&postcount=377

I posted the letters that I received from BCS and that was one of the 2 letters regarding the set.

I can tell you for a fact that I received this letter in the early 90's while I was a member of BCS and stationed overseas. As you can see by the 3 paged letter, I had made my purchase of the set 1 May 90. I still have the invoice from that purchase as well.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...1&postcount=15

Question: Do you remember Ted Z's response to that letter?
Going through the thread, Ted never really commented directly about that letter from what I could see. I did phrase searches using the below information, never found any matches.

I quoted Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter in the original thread in post #12 of this thread. I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word.
For some reason I can not find that post by Ted Z, but this is what he said about that letter.

"This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in its text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

I read the letters, and nowhere does it say anything like Ted Z said!

Question: Am I wrong or am I missing something here? And is it because of what Ted Z said about that letter: you said in post #412- “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

Based strictly on the information contained within that thread, and my limited knowledge of the cards, I certainly made the assumption that they were from the Festberg find. I had no reason to believe otherwise.

butchie t, I believe you have a different set of cards, then the ones we see all the time, and they are definitely not from the Festberg find, more to come on this, I will explain. For now I await your answers. Thanks John[/QUOTE]

John, maybe they are not from the Festberg find. I know the cards backs that I have do not match the Festberg examples that have been posted subsequently. And even abctoo had several interactions with Ted as well. I believe abctoo is still active on this site and am somewhat curious as to him not weighing in on this thread.

Anyway, that is what I have for now.

B.T.

[Johnphotoman]

butchie t, thank you. I am on the track of your cards, I don't know if we can say 100% what they are, but we can say 98% what they are not. Still compiling the evidence we have to date. I hope to be able to give clear answers to many of the questions we have about your cards and the others.

We do need more people to post. I, too, am curious as to why people are not weighing in on this thread. Maybe because it seems that I am criticizing Ted Z. But I am very thankful for Ted Z, and admire the work he has done. I just want to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread thing.

I know I said - I believe Ted Z had an agenda, that is just my opinion, I do not want to paint Ted Z in a bad light, thanks to him, we can have this conversation but with the good comes the bad.

I formed my opinion of Ted Z having an agenda after combing through the old thread. The letter from the Baseball Card Society and Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter is what had me come to the conclusion Ted Z had an agenda

I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word. I did not change or add anything to Ted Z comments. I know I copy his comments in response to the Baseball Card Society letter. Since I had posted those comments- I can not find them! The only reasons I can think of are: it was in another thread, or someone removed them. I do not know enough on how the thread actually works to say if this could happen. John

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

butchie t, thank you. I am on the track of your cards, I don't know if we can say 100% what they are, but we can say 98% what they are not. Still compiling the evidence we have to date. I hope to be able to give clear answers to many of the questions we have about your cards and the others.

We do need more people to post. I, too, am curious as to why people are not weighing in on this thread. Maybe because it seems that I am criticizing Ted Z. But I am very thankful for Ted Z, and admire the work he has done. I just want to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread thing.

I know I said - I believe Ted Z had an agenda, that is just my opinion, I do not want to paint Ted Z in a bad light, thanks to him, we can have this conversation but with the good comes the bad.

I formed my opinion of Ted Z having an agenda after combing through the old thread. The letter from the Baseball Card Society and Ted Z's response and evaluation of that letter is what had me come to the conclusion Ted Z had an agenda

I quoted Ted Z exactly word for word. I did not change or add anything to Ted Z comments. I know I copy his comments in response to the Baseball Card Society letter. Since I had posted those comments- I can not find them! The only reasons I can think of are: it was in another thread, or someone removed them. I do not know enough on how the thread actually works to say if this could happen. John

John, what you're looking for is in this thread https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Document

[butchie_t]

I am confident Leon is not the kind of person that would delete a thread or a post in a thread. It is still out there somewhere.

That entire string was archived when Leon swapped databases or platforms, not sure which. But, it is in its entirety from what I can see.

And I know that you are not inferring in your comment that he did it, just that you cannot find it.

Regards,

B.T.


Great find Pat!!

I just searched the archived thread and looked nowhere else.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Document

[butchie_t]

HAHAH!!!

Check out this eBay link I just came across today… Look familiar to anyone???

This person bought theirs initially in May of 89 from the same place BCS. Sooooo they (BCS) had a few of these sets…..which stands to reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17675285453...Bk9SR8acv8f-ZA


Butch

[Johnphotoman]

A big thanks goes out to Pat R and butchie t. I think as we work together, we can have more confidence and a better understanding in the Bond Bread cards. I hope you guys agree. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

I am working on putting together a basis for card thickness and color of the back of cards on the sets I have. Trying to find an Ivory card that is from the Festberg card set and a couple of others I do not have. A foundation that will support the underlying idea on how to tell what we as collectors call "Bond Bread cards. John

[Johnphotoman]

While we are disgusting letters, and people who brought cards in the 1980 and 1990 from ads, Mfil5 posted in the original thread- post #140,141,143. The letter from The Sporting News letter, from the 1980s.

Quote: Mfil5 - “ Hello everyone, my uncle bought a set of these circa 1988 and we've been wondering for quite some time if these were the actual '47 card set. Alas we now realize that these are most likely not. My question is, are they worth anything and if so, what? Also did anyone else buy from the same people? I've attatched pics of the letter that came with the cards and of the cards themselves. Any info would be much appreciated.”

In post 143 Mfil5: “Thanks for the response, after doing some digging I found that the guy that my uncle bought them from, Stanley Apfelbaum, was a "controversial" coin dealer before being barred from that and then moved on to sports memorabilia sometime in the 80s. Did anyone else buy from Mr. Apfelbaum's Rookie Card Club in the late 80s? And if so does anyone know if they were legit? The whole story behind these cards is really interesting and I'm just trying to piece all of this together.”

I would say, the cards from The Sporting News are from the Festberg find by looking at the images. It appears that this guy Stanley Apfelbaum was pawning the BB cards off as the real deal. (BOND BREAD).

Why? I do not understand why? He should have sold them for what they were. I am guessing he thought the Festberg cards were some kind of reprint and tried to make a quick buck.

I did find it interesting in what Ted Z said: “Your cards on display in Posts #141, 142 & 143 exactly coincide with my list of the 24 cards in the 1980's find by David Festberg. Furthermore the backs of these cards appear to be "toned" (instead of bright white). Therefore, I would conclude that these cards
are not from the original 1949 issued set.” I just do not understand the “1949 issued set”. I have not seen any evidence for a 1949 issue.

“What are they worth ? If they get graded and the flip identifies them wrongly as "1947 Bond Bread"......it's anyone's guess ? ?” (Ted Z).

I would say to Mfil5, treasure what you have, you have a part of baseball history. Remember value is in the eye of the beholder. They are worth more as they are, they do not need to be graded and then flipped, or wrongly identified. John

[Johnphotoman]

Can you guess what card belongs to what set? The cards are from my collection, and all five are different colors. As you can see two are Exhibit cards. But do match color in a set of "Bond Bread" cards. I am trying to buy the cards to match the color of the Exhibit cards I found one, looking for the other. More to come on this. Remember lighting and posting can change the way the card looks, this does not represent the true color of the cards, but it is a good guide.

Answer to come later. John

[Johnphotoman]

Card 1: Exhibit card- light gray paper stock, 2 5/16 x 5 5/16, weight 5.10 grams, .6mm thick.

Card2: Exhibit card- dark gray paper stock, 3 ⅛ x 4 ¾ , weight 3.69 grams, .6mm thick.

Card3: Bond Bread, cards inserted into loaves of Bond Bread cream white paper stock, die-cut (rounded corners), 2 1/4 x 3 7/16,
.2mm thick, weight 1.22 grams.

Card 4: Festburg cards discovered in NJ 1980s- Ivory / Beige paper stock, squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram.

Card5: Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects- bright white paper stock, die-cut (rounded corners), 2 1/4 x 3 7/16, .3mm thick, weight 1.35 grams.

PS> White copy paper background, see how the white paper looks gray, the background should be white, but this is what happens when we post images - most of the time we do not see the true color. Use as a reference point only for the color for the cards. John.

[Johnphotoman]

I just discovered two posted that are related to the conversations we're having here: Once I get a handle on everything that was posted, I will go over some of what was said. Need time to unpack and digest what was posted. Their worth a look at. John.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...alsally,-Sally

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...-Administrator

[GasHouseGang]

I didn't want to reread this whole thread, but I know somewhere it was asked to post cards that came in the boxes. I picked up this small group of movie star cards that came in a box labeled Screen Star Subjects - Series 1. These cards all have the rounded edges.

[Yoda]

I participated early in this post while trying to determine if my Rizutto and Musial, one with a blank back, the other with the Bond Bread info, both with rounded corners, were truly ones pulled from a loaf. They were graded by SGC as 1947 Bond Bread. This thread has removed that concern, and I have watched with fascination as more and more info was divulged about the various permutations that has made this set so intriguing.

I wouldn't worry about Ted Z. He loved a good debate about cards and sets and on those rare occasions when he was shown he might have erred, he was happy to add it to his broad knowledge base.

I believe a special shoutout to John and Butch for their investigations about this perplexing set is necessary. I now know a lot more about the cards but perhaps the final story is yet be revealed.

[Johnphotoman]

GasHouseGang- very nice, thank you. Can you post the backs and tell me if they are bright white stock, or cream white. Thank You this helps a lot, more to come on these cards. John

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda - Thank you, I too believe the final story is yet to be revealed. We are close. John.

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda: I don’t remember what answer I gave before, I believe the cards that have printed backs were for sale, not in boxes and not inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. The card with blank backs and rounded corners is either a card that was inserted into loaves of Bond Bread: if it has a cream white back. On the other hand, if the card has a bright white back it is from…Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects which came in boxes. Interestingly enough the Sport star Subjects cards started coming out in the 1930s. John

[Johnphotoman]

Pat R: “My friend's mother purchased a set for him and he told me that she purchased them from an ad in the NY Times. There are images of all of them in post #53 in the old thread.”

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...-P%40trick%20R

Pat: What we now know teaches that the images in post #53 of the old thread (cards of your friend) are from the Festburg cards discovered in NJ 1980s- Ivory / Beige paper stock, squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram. It could be the same set… from the letter from The Sporting News from the 1980s…from Stanley Apfelbaum see post 140 in this thread.

As for Matt74 his cards may not be from the Festburg discovered, he says his cards have cream colored backs that are almost white. I have reached out to him, maybe he can post images of his cards front and back. I am thinking they should look like the images below only with squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram.

PS> The first two cards show as cream white: The Festburg card is the one in the middle. Again remember we are not seeing the true colors of the cards.


Thanks John.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I believe a special shoutout to John and Butch for their investigations about this perplexing set is necessary. I now know a lot more about the cards but perhaps the final story is yet be revealed.

Yoda, thank you for the shout out. But I must cede the larger portion of the shout out goes to John. He has certainly brought more light to this topic since he dared to wade back into this topic.

One way or another, I am just happy to have more supporting information to what we have here.

Best to you,

Butch