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  #1  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:42 PM
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Default Minimizing your Losses

The problem that haunts every collector and dealer in this industry, how to minimize our losses. I was selling some of my leftover modern stuff to a reputable dealer who pays very fair prices. The transaction ended up being for a sum of money that was way below what I initially wanted. Maybe its just the fact that its modern cards. Does this occur often with vintage? It seems that ebay and auction houses to us seem cheap but then when you go to sell off a part of your collection down the road, your being offered less then ebay(of course because of fees and what not), but is there a way to cut down on your losses or is it just the hobby. Of course you can sell them one by one and wait for the right offers but this takes a lot of time and effort that many people just dont want to go through with. In the end its slightly depressing to know that your collection will always sell for less then what you paid for it.

Thanks, Alex.

P.S. Just seeing if anyone has had similar experiences. Just my own little rant on the topic.
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:50 PM
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Vintage for the most part holds its value. With that said, I collect vintage because I like it. I don't rally care what the monitory value is as long I enjoy it. If I worried about how much money was invested, I probably wouldn't have started the collection to begin with. I have also found that trading on the board, we have a really good group and generally if someone wants a card and needs a little help to make a deal happen, it's not a big deal. Just some thoughts.

Kmac

Last edited by kmac32; 11-28-2011 at 05:51 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:18 PM
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If I worried about the money Id never buy another old, small piece of cardboard. IDK...Ive made money on my cards before. You'll always lose if youre looking to "dump" cards though.
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:31 PM
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Here's a way to make sure you never lose money. Put them on ebay with an insane Buy It Now price.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:26 PM
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I have been slowly and steadily buying pre-War cards for pleasure (not with an investment motive) for 20-25 years. Yes, I realize that if I were to sell all the cards I bought over the last few years, I would incur a loss on many (perhaps most) of them. But, if I were to sell my entire collection, I fully believe (I've never tried to run any numbers) that I would realize a gain that is greater percentagewise than the than the gain in value of my house and the gain in value of my IRA investments over the same time period. I look at this as "having my cake, and eating it too!"
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:48 PM
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Alex, I can see where you could really lose it on modern cards. You can also lose it on vintage cards but at least you'll have something that is a bit more difficult to obtain and probably easier to sell than the new shiney stuff.

Nobody can predict with certainty what's going to happen with card prices but it would sure be a lot more cool to have a T206 of Cy Young or Ty Cobb than to have a 1986 Barry Bonds or some other rookie card from the not so distant past (even in a "10" holder).

Don't collect for investment, collect because you enjoy it. If you collect for investment then you'll be miserable if you see a devaluation in the cards. If you collect because you like baseball then at least you can appreciate the player on the card and the era from which it came.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanderthegreat35 View Post
The problem that haunts every collector...

In the end its slightly depressing to know that your collection will always sell for less then what you paid for it.
First off, this problem may "haunt" almost every collector, but it does not enter into either my conscious or subconscious thoughts.

Second, when my collection gets sold, I will quite probably be dead, so I won't care what price it gets.

My advice to you, is to never buy another thing that you have any thought of ever selling, that way you won't have to worry about being haunted.

I lost out on an ebay auction tonight due to a business call causing me to forget about the end time. I was going to bid $51. The card sold for $0.35. It's a weird variation card that nobody (besides Al, and he already has one, probably) would ever be willing to spend $2 for, oh well, better luck to me next time.

Doug
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2011, 06:07 AM
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When selling to a dealer, be it modern or vintage, he will offer only a price at which he believes he can make a profit. So you bought your modern cards at retail and sold them at wholesale, never a formula for making money or breaking even. You are compensating him for doing the work you didn't want to do - selling the cards one by one, maybe having all or some in his inventory in the form of dead money for years. Or doing on-line listings.

I agree with previous posters, collect what you enjoy for pleasure, not for investment. It's gravy if you realize some appreciation.

So minimizing my losses doesn't really matter to me. That said, I made sure that my kids know that the cards have substantial monetary value so they won't just throw them out after I check out.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:20 AM
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With the exception of some real old-timers, if you remain active you will almost certainly realize less money from your collection that you put into it. I have liquidated a substantial collection for a friend of mine and I suspect I got $50K out of it for his family, but he probably had more than $100K into it. He also got the enjoyment of owning it. That said, had he spent that same 100K going to bars, bowling, or playing golf he would not have had anything to show for it. I figure it will go the same with me.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmac32 View Post
Vintage for the most part holds its value. With that said, I collect vintage because I like it. I don't rally care what the monitory value is as long I enjoy it. If I worried about how much money was invested, I probably wouldn't have started the collection to begin with. I have also found that trading on the board, we have a really good group and generally if someone wants a card and needs a little help to make a deal happen, it's not a big deal. Just some thoughts.

Kmac
True... A lot of sellers here will negotiate fairly if they know you are a collector rather than a dealer.
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2011, 06:30 AM
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I think about all of the cards I paid really strong for and how much less I know I will get for them. Then I think about the cards I got good deals on. Put both together and I am probably about a dime ahead. All in all it's been fun so far though. I have made a ton of really good hobby friends and had some great times over the last 15 yrs (since I started as an adult). I can't count the number of times I have been rolling over laughing while partying/eating/drinking with my buds. That also is what I love most about shows....that and the babes of course . At this most recent Oaks show, when out at dinner one night, our waitress had a side job of selling sex toys. She gave me her card and I got it slabbed an 8!!

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  #12  
Old 11-29-2011, 06:40 AM
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I admit to being "haunted" by a number of difficult things that happen in life, but the resell value of my collection is not one of them.

This is one thing in my life I just try to enjoy. I consider it entertainment and diversion. As another poster mentioned some others spend money for other types of entertainment--play golf, go to expensive restaurants, buy boats, cars, etc. for their pleasure and don't expect their money back.
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2011, 09:38 AM
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Default Leon; we need more evidence

That story about the waitress is not any good without pictures

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  #14  
Old 11-29-2011, 09:39 AM
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As another poster mentioned some others spend money for other types of entertainment--play golf, go to expensive restaurants, buy boats, cars, etc. for their pleasure and don't expect their money back.
I think the money spent on golf is crazy. And people that play golf probably think collecting cards is crazy. But the two have fun with their hobby. So it is a wash.


Technically speaking - if you only collect cards, and never sell, you never really lose money.
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2011, 09:53 AM
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I'd tend to agree that this more frequently happens with modern cards.

Everybody remember the Strasburg Superfractor? It sold for more than my house. I bet that buyer is seeing a lot of red ink when he looks at that card, and not because of the Nats road jerseys.

PreWar players are established. You know what their career totals will be, because they're dead. There's a lot of speculation in modern cards. If you ever doubt that, look at the ebay auctions after the next no-hitter, or 3 HR game.
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2011, 09:59 AM
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[QUOTE=sportscardpete;943070]I think the money spent on golf is crazy. And people that play golf probably think collecting cards is crazy. But the two have fun with their hobby. So it is a wash.

Which reminds me of a joke.

Guy goes up to his buddy and starts laughing and says,"You wouldn't believe what I saw the other day at 5 O CLOCK IN THE MORNIN!

These guys were out there PLAYIN' GOLF AT 5 iin th morning! Can you imagine getting up that early to hit some little ball and chase after it. It's crazy.

So the guy's buddy says, what were you doing up at that hour, Vern?

I was going fishing.

....to each his own....
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2011, 11:41 AM
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There are a million things that can be said about the subject, but I will pick three.

To prevent losses, avoid investing in what is hot now, what's the in thing now-- especially if it's modern.

Buy at good prices. No matter what it is is, it's not a good investment if you buy at 3x going price. At 3x overpaying, you'd still lose money if it doubled in market value in a week.

Sell items once in a while, so you get a feel for what things really sell for. People who never sell often have their heads in the clouds about value and usually overvalue their items, while people who actually sell items have a real world view of what they'll get and make wiser purchases.

A positive of selling at an unexpected loss (which has happened to everyone, by the way!) is it can make you wiser for the future.

My old saying is the worst thing that can happen to a newbie stock investor (or casino better) is that his first pick wins money, and the best is it loses money. If his makes money he's suddenly sure he knows it all and is a stock picking genius. If it loses money, he is now aware that he can easy lose money, doesn't know everything and has to be careful and smart when making future picks.

Last edited by drc; 11-29-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2011, 01:59 PM
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My cards aren't going anywhere until I'm dead and I suspect I will have bigger things to worry about at that point. Besides, as I always tell my wife, I don't ski or golf or play tennis, I don't belong to country clubs, subscribe to the symphony or opera [OK, I hate those regardless, so probably not a good example], or spend big money on art or antiques. I collect cards. Collecting is way cheaper than the things I might do otherwise and I enjoy it most. The fact that I might recoup my expenditure down the line is an added bonus. I simply enjoy my collector-friends and my cards now.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2011, 03:36 PM
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I think everyone who buys cards hope to at least break even but it’s very hard to do.
I really think it boils down to how you collect, I see 4 broad types. I do think people can be a part of more than one type, like one part of their collection is life time say like a player collector of WaJo or Waddell but a flipper with the rest of their collection-

The Life Time Collector- A person who collects and rarely if ever sells, they are the top of the food chain because generally when they really want a card they are willing to pay what it takes to own it. They are not worried about SMR, VCP or past sales, they want the card period. Resale value means nothing to them. They do no real selling except if they do get a lot with extra cards they usually send it to someone else to sell it at what it can get now.

The Collector/Investor- A person who collects a certain area but is very aware of the value of their collection and is reluctant to pay much over market for their items but will gladly pay VCP type numbers on much of their collection. They understand they may miss out on certain cards to the life time collector but if they are patience and wait for the card at their price, many times they will get it. They mostly buy single cards, as it’s too hard to value lots and don’t want to deal with extra cards and how to sell them. They generally pay more than the flippers and dealers so they get the cards they want but if they ever do decide to sell they will lose a bit when selling – 10-20% if sold within a few years of purchasing. I have also seen that they will change directions in their collection and in life and just sell all or part of their collection; they are not as tied to their cards as the life time collector.

The Collector/Flipper- This collector is pretty savvy in that they realize that in order to really get some of the best deals out there it’s to purchase lots and break them up or hunt ebay/auctions house for deals. Having some capital to spend is important and they will always have money tied up in cards to sell. They are very adept at selling extras and many times can buy lots and sell off all but 1-2 and get them for free to build their collection. Their collection will have more holes in that they are content to wait for the right price or a certain lot to appear. They will pay more than the dealers at times if cards they want are out there in lots or such. They are open to buying any card they feel they can turn into profit and additional cards for their collection. They are open to selling most cards in their collection for the right price. They can do very well and can make money on most purchases.

The Dealer- They are only in it for the money, they care more about what they can buy and sell a card or lot for. The most important thing for them is capital, inventory and having lots of both. They are the ones who can purchase the 10k, 50k, 100k sets/lots/collections and break them up. Since it’s a job for them they are at it all the time and should have the best feel for the market (or they will not be in business long). If properly funded they can wait to get their price (ala 707) and take whatever strategy to sell that they want to (high margin low volume, low margin high volume, etc). They rarely win single card auctions unless its to get a card they have a buyer for or if they feel its at the bottom of the market. In most cases they are the bottom of the food chain in prices paid for single cards.

Also on taking a loss, anyone who purchases a single graded card and decides to sell it within 2-3 years can expect more times than not to take a 10%+ loss on it to cover at minimum selling fees. In order to make real money on cards purchased at market prices I would think 10-20 years is needed.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:44 PM
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Default For everything said in the last post

Levi (AKA 707) does collect some cards as well ----- so he is not a PURE Dealer in the way that Rob Veres *Burbank* is

Rich
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:55 PM
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As far as 'types', how about 'the historian'?

I suspect that even a pure dealer, like Rich describes, might fall into the above category. I doubt anyone starts flipping cards purely to make money, without having some interest in vintage cards. I know from personal experience that the toughest problem with buying/selling anything that's related to your hobby is growing too attached to your inventory. So perhaps Rob Veres has solved that problem and still gets to enjoy looking at lots of cool cards. There are a few guys on this board who are respected as historians and who handle a LOT of cool items, but I've spoken with them and know that they practice 'catch and release' almost exclusively.

My problem the last time around was the exact opposite of 'getting too attached'. I just love learning about stuff, and lithograph cards have always fascinated me - I would get very excited about seeing a card, study the hell out of it, then lose interest and trade/sell it. I have done the same thing with various other hobbies. It's led to lots of fun research and getting some of the research published, but my collection is generally quite small.

But collectors who don't know my type will just lump us in with the 'flippers'
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  #22  
Old 11-30-2011, 04:55 PM
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I sell a fair bit as I refocus or clear out space. I usually end up down a few bucks or worse on cards but not always. On the flip side, I used to sell old LP's on Ebay and off some message board's and usually made out like a bandit on those. I figure I'm about even between the music and the cards over the years. The only thing you can really get burned on out of what I buy a lot of: books. There is, sadly, nothing more worthless than a used book these days.
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:52 PM
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Resurrecting this "oldish" thread because of a couple of things recently. First a thread here on something akin to shilling by an auction house: Link. The second was an email I recently received asking what I paid for a certain card. That card was a Ruth card during his playing days because the emailer had also recently purchased that card type also for Ruth. It ended up that the buyer paid something like 10X the value of the card because he was not knowledgeable about the typical prices of these, and that the seller had trumpeted the card as 1 of 1, which it definitely was not. This was a Ruth card, so you can imagine how much the buyer overpaid. The good news in this situation was that the buyer was able to return the card and receive this money back without any problems.

This brings me back to this topic, which is how to minimize your losses in cards. Most everyone will say that card collecting is a hobby and it is for fun. However, one refrain that I commonly here is "I want to get back the money I put in the the card" (or close to it). People enjoy collecting, but they don't not want to get creamed. Many collectors have families or bills or other things, so if they're getting whupped buying collectibles, they're not the only people suffering. And again, most people are happy as long as things even out. Generally, if they lose some money in these cards here, but these other cards have appreciated in value so that things are generally even, they are happy. That brings me to what you need to do to minimize your losses:

* Don't overpay!

This is like those ads on television that you sometimes see from gambling casinos. You have to know your limits. Here, you have to be disciplined enough to not overpay for cards, and let cards go when they go over their value. I would say when you look to purchase cards, you should assign it to values. First is the true value of the card monetarily. The second is how much enjoyment you would receive from just owning the card. The second is the value that you would not mind losing. If you say this card is worth $50, but I get $5 value just having this card in my collection and enjoying it for a while, then $55 is a fair value to pay. You can think of this as similar to the concept of renting. There have been some discussions where it seems that some high dollar value cards seem to change hands fairly often. The comments are often that the buyer was just "renting" the card for a while, enjoyed having that card in their possession for a little bit, and then was willing to let it go again. Think of the rental fee as that part that you wouldn't mind losing. Of course, if the card appreciates, that's great. However, if you lose a bit, don't sweat it too much.

This doesn't mean that you have to only collect certain popular cards or sets (although certainly, these often have less price fluctuations and are easier to sell). It also doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy rare cards that only come out once in a blue moon. Sometimes, if you don't get a card, it won't be available for another few years. That's something you just need to keep in mind when determining value.

The other part of value is the first part of equation. What's a card worth? For that you need to be knowledgeable and "do your homework." The do your homework part doesn't sound fun, certainly not for a hobby, which by definition is something you do for fun. That's why this board is so great. There's a lot of knowledge here on net54, where just reading the posts, you can get a lot of knowledge about cards, and still enjoy the learning. The other part you still need to learn is the pricing. Often this comes from buy and selling many cards in your collection so you come to have an idea what these are worth. However, you can also look at past auction histories or ebay completed sales or VCP.

This is why shilling is so dangerous. With shilling it always pushes you to the brink of overpaying for cards. You may think that you are still buying the card for a good value, but any kind of hedge that you have is gone. Your collection will go from "I lose some here but I gain some here" to much more of "I am losing everywhere." So definitely be careful when you buy. Collecting is definitely great fun, but even better when you're financiall at peace of mind.
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Old 12-09-2011, 04:18 PM
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Nicely put, Gary. I agree wholeheartedly. Of course, while what you are suggesting makes perfect sense, it also requires a fair bit of intellectual honesty on the part of a collector in admitting that one really does not have the ability to pee in the tall weeds with the big dogs. Not an easy thing to admit. That realization all but drove me out of vintage baseball card collecting some years ago when I realized that many cards on my want list were simply beyond my reach. A nice side effect of what you propose never having to wait around all night looking for auctions to close. Just put in the limit and STICK WITH IT.
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