Any silver stackers on the board?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Guys, one more ? on this kind of investing/collecting if you can bear it. . . . .

In looking at titanium, there seems to be a real differential between a 1 ounce bar and say a 1 ounce US mint coin. If you want to dip a toe in this is, is there really any reason to buy some 2018 US Mint coin? Is there really a market for these recent coins, whether Canadian, US, S. African or anywhere else, above and beyond the metal itself?

[I realize of course that vintage coins like a St Gaudens gold piece merits a substantial premium over the price of the raw material.]

There is some collectible value to the coins, and even more for the graded coins. Most experts I have read say just buy metal though.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is some collectible value to the coins, and even more for the graded coins. Most experts I have read say just buy metal though.

This. The premiums on most coins are hard to recoup when you go to sell...not always, but many times.

[barrysloate]

David- I have a question, maybe you can answer it. Last year I had a gold chain I wanted to sell. I calculated the actual value of the gold (I know how to do that), and offered it for 90% of that amount. I put it on BST, and my wife listed it on ebay and I think on etsy.

We didn't have a single inquiry anywhere. So how cheap do you have to list a commodity to make a sale? I know nobody pays full value- if I bring scrap gold into the diamond district in Manhattan they pay at most 70%, if that. Wouldn't you think 90% of face would work? I assume if I offer ten dollar bills for $9 each, business will be very brisk.

[58pinson]

Barrysloate: There are several coin shops in Bergen County, NJ (Oradell Coin is 1) that will pay full spot for gold. There is a substantial "middle" between the spot price and the ask retail price. Plenty of room for them to make money. I'd say the middle is about 5% - or currently over $60.

Numismatic/bullion: As David said it is often difficult to recoup the premium paid for a numismatic coin as opposed to a bullion coin. Not always. There is also the idea that in buying a numismatic coin as a relative layperson that you can be had by unscrupulous sellers, and they are out there. Not a lot different than the baseball card market in that respect - see our current travails.

Peter: Although I know zilch about Titanium, on many of the precious metals that are sold the nation state mint coins can often demand a premium over bars and other forms. I have never purchased other than minted coins of different countries, but know of folks who have had to have their bars, etc. assayed before sale to satisfy the buyer that they have not been tampered with. Kind of a potential hindrance to a quick transaction. I suppose that coins could be hit too, buy my reading of the market is that is much less likely.

[barrysloate]

That's interesting, but everybody should pay around the same. One area can't overpay or pay more than another.

[58pinson]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That's interesting, but everybody should pay around the same. One area can't overpay or pay more than another.

While I'm sure it seems counterintuitive, it is exactly what happens. Although it may seem hard to believe there are actually people who put gold items in a bag/box and mailed them to TV ad/scams and received checks for an abysmal percentage of their worth. Walk into any mall in the US and there are kiosks that will offer 50% or much less of spot. It's just that many folks who decide to sell spare pieces of gold are not that informed and are preyed on by a merciless marketplace.

I think the bottom line is that there are just different competing business models. The reputable coin store that is based on and content with making a fair profit, been doing it for a long time, and actually wants to have repeat customers. As opposed to the bottom feeders who are in it for as long as it lasts and will push any advantage they have to the hilt and pack it up when the party's over and people wise up or word gets out. Then again, all that's just my personal opinion.

Your mentioning the lack of success you had when trying to sell some gold doesn't surprise me too much. There is only a miniscule percentage of the US population that owns or has interest in owning gold (or silver etc. for that matter). I recall a video I watched on Youtube a few years ago where a social researcher stood in front of a coin store in California and offered passersby a 1 ounce Canadian Gold Maple Leaf (face value of $50 for legal reasons) that had a current spot value of $1,500 for $25. No takers. Wish I'd have run into him.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 58pinson

I recall a video I watched on Youtube a few years ago where a social researcher stood in front of a coin store in California and offered passersby a 1 ounce Canadian Gold Maple Leaf (face value of $50 for legal reasons) that had a current spot value of $1,500 for $25. No takers. Wish I'd have run into him.

There was another recent experiment where passersby were offered a silver bar or a chocolate bar - their choice. Not one took the silver bar IIRC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 58pinson

Barrysloate: There are several coin shops in Bergen County, NJ (Oradell Coin is 1) that will pay full spot for gold. There is a substantial "middle" between the spot price and the ask retail price. Plenty of room for them to make money. I'd say the middle is about 5% - or currently over $60.

Numismatic/bullion: As David said it is often difficult to recoup the premium paid for a numismatic coin as opposed to a bullion coin. Not always. There is also the idea that in buying a numismatic coin as a relative layperson that you can be had by unscrupulous sellers, and they are out there. Not a lot different than the baseball card market in that respect - see our current travails.

Peter: Although I know zilch about Titanium, on many of the precious metals that are sold the nation state mint coins can often demand a premium over bars and other forms. I have never purchased other than minted coins of different countries, but know of folks who have had to have their bars, etc. assayed before sale to satisfy the buyer that they have not been tampered with. Kind of a potential hindrance to a quick transaction. I suppose that coins could be hit too, buy my reading of the market is that is much less likely.

My understanding, or at least assumption, is that bars and rounds and such from major sellers like Apmex, Silver Towne Mint, etc. are presumed to be the real thing and are liquid without any testing.

[58pinson]

I think you basic assumption is correct Peter. Especially when considering the smaller pieces. I have never dabbled with non-mint struck metal and my information is from acquantainces who have had issues. From what I understand the larger the bar (usually) or piece of silver (usually) the more likely the buyer would have qualms about not getting it assayed. A lot of funny business can go on with a 100 oz. bar of silver if in the hands of someone not on the up and up.
There would be counterparty risk in a situation like that, IMHO.

I did not mean to intimate that the premium associated with state minted coins over plain bars is due to verification - I am sure they are simply more expensive to produce. Just that anyone who walks into a coin dealer with a 100 oz silver bar and plunks it down on the counter is likely going to have a different experience that if they bring in 5 US mint silver eagle tubes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 58pinson

I think you basic assumption is correct Peter. Especially when considering the smaller pieces. I have never dabbled with non-mint struck metal and my information is from acquantainces who have had issues. From what I understand the larger the bar (usually) or piece of silver (usually) the more likely the buyer would have qualms about not getting it assayed. A lot of funny business can go on with a 100 oz. bar of silver if in the hands of someone not on the up and up.
There would be counterparty risk in a situation like that, IMHO.

I did not mean to intimate that the premium associated with state minted coins over plain bars is due to verification - I am sure they are simply more expensive to produce. Just that anyone who walks into a coin dealer with a 100 oz silver bar and plunks it down on the counter is likely going to have a different experience that if they bring in 5 US mint silver eagle tubes.

The silver eagles are certainly beautiful; the obverse is of course a reproduction of the Walking Liberty half dollar which is gorgeous.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My understanding, or at least assumption, is that bars and rounds and such from major sellers like Apmex, Silver Towne Mint, etc. are presumed to be the real thing and are liquid without any testing.

Not really, there are a ton of really good fakes out there from every company. I recently saw some really good fake 1oz silver bars from silver towne.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My understanding, or at least assumption, is that bars and rounds and such from major sellers like Apmex, Silver Towne Mint, etc. are presumed to be the real thing and are liquid without any testing.

Originally Posted by bnorth

Not really, there are a ton of really good fakes out there from every company. I recently saw some really good fake 1oz silver bars from silver towne.

Right, but just to clarify, the bars aren't coming from SilverTowne, they just have the SilverTowne logo. I linked a good video in a previous post, but here it is again. Some fake MCM bars and how to spot them (or any other fake bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rjJmGGkNPU

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

David- I have a question, maybe you can answer it. Last year I had a gold chain I wanted to sell. I calculated the actual value of the gold (I know how to do that), and offered it for 90% of that amount. I put it on BST, and my wife listed it on ebay and I think on etsy.

We didn't have a single inquiry anywhere. So how cheap do you have to list a commodity to make a sale? I know nobody pays full value- if I bring scrap gold into the diamond district in Manhattan they pay at most 70%, if that. Wouldn't you think 90% of face would work? I assume if I offer ten dollar bills for $9 each, business will be very brisk.

What 58pinsin said.

Maybe there was an error in your weight/purity calculations where you thought it was worth more?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What 58pinsin said.

Maybe there was an error in your weight/purity calculations where you thought it was worth more?

Here is how I calculated it, so if you think I made a mistake please tell me:

First I weighed it on my O'Haus gram scale, and it weighed between 25 and 26 grams, so I called it .9 of an ounce for convenience. I multiplied that by the price of gold, which was around $1300 at that time. Then since it was 14K, I multiplied that by .583, since it is 14/24 pure. So I got:

.9 x 1300 x .583= $682 worth of gold. And I offered it for $625.

I also have a gold testing kit, with the acid bottles and the black stone, so I know how to test it too. Were my calculations right?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here is how I calculated it, so if you think I made a mistake please tell me:

First I weighed it on my O'Haus gram scale, and it weighed between 25 and 26 grams, so I called it .9 of an ounce for convenience. I multiplied that by the price of gold, which was around $1300 at that time. Then since it was 14K, I multiplied that by .583, since it is 14/24 pure. So I got:

.9 x 1300 x .583= $682 worth of gold. And I offered it for $625.

I also have a gold testing kit, with the acid bottles and the black stone, so I know how to test it too. Were my calculations right?

Keep in mind that an ounce of gold isn't measured in regular ounces, it's measured in troy ounces. There are 28.35 grams in a regular ounce, 31.10 in a troy ounce. So, let's say you had 25 grams of gold, really that's only .8 of a troy ounce, not .9.

When I do the math on my calculator, I get $609.24. When I use this scrap value calculator, I get $609.52, so very close.

http://coinapps.com/gold/14k/calculator/

[barrysloate]

Thanks David. I never knew about the use of troy ounces. I know there are twenty pennyweights (dwt) to an ounce, but don't know exactly how to use them in calculating.

[todeen]

This was an interesting thread that died. I didn't really see any input by preppers, kind of shocking. Nor did there seem to be any historical explanations.

To make sense of a preppers' response, one must understand the historical understanding of currency. Over thousands of years humans have moved away from a barter based economy to a currency economy. Humans once used shells as a means of currency. Eventually, moving into minted coins - think of the Romans 2000 years ago. Although silver might seem like a worthless metal, it has defined human currency models for hundreds of years. Before the US Dollar, silver was the global currency. World exploration after Columbus was defined by silver when the most powerful global economies were based on the idea of mercantilism. England decimated the Qing dynasty (China) by robbing their coffers of silver, in exchange for opium. tsk tsk tsk. During the slave trade in the Atlantic, European economies realized they would bankrupt themselves if they purchased slaves with silver, so they turned to trading weapons and rum, among other trade goods. They took the slaves to the Americas where they were exchanged for silver, and the silver returned to Europe. Only in more modern times have individuals believed that paper currency can be backed by a country's GDP. It's an interesting concept that preppers think is based on sleight of hand.

Preppers therefore believe that if the global economy fails, or even the US economy, currency will revert to the previous system of trading in metals and trade goods. Why? Because historically, for thousands of years, people have believed that metals hold value. And gems. And things that glitter to the eye. One can't necessarily walk around with a Picasso or a Van Gogh, but one can walk around with a shiny coin in their pocket. One prepper book I read suggested a supply of junk metal, bullets, cigarettes, and some other trade goods that might be appealing to others. Obviously as has been quoted earlier, silver takes up a lot of space and is heavy. But it also can be divided much easier than gold. Can you imagine having to chip off flakes of gold? How bothersome! So junk silver, silver eagles, and silver bars would be much more beneficial in that regard.

[packs]

Anyone make any trades?

[ronniehatesjazz]

Cool thread, surprised I've never seen it before now. I've "stacked" on and off again since 2008. I'm not a prepper but I am wary of potential inflation and I think it's kind of a fun hobby. Worst investment decision I've ever made though was buying a bunch of palladium at $200/oz and selling it at $450 only to see it cross $2k years down the road.

The cool part about it IMO is the history... getting gold coins for Europe that are hundreds of years old at a slight markup to spot is a fair price and just incredibly cool. The bad part is when it goes beyond this IMO and collectors/investors fall victim to charlatans who are either projecting "Gold to $10,000 by 2025....buy my book" or slinging a "Collectors Edition Chewbaka 2 oz silver round" for only 4X spot... basically lots of people get burnt and have no clue what they're doing.

I will be buying some again in the near future but can't justify paying the spreads right now. I'll just play GLD until I get a chance.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Anyone make any trades?

Not me. Silver is very hard to find in my area right now with premiums of $5-8 an ounce (or more) when you can find it. And a lot of the online dealers are sold out or have very little stock. Even then, they're telling customers 5-6 weeks for delivery. If anyone has any for sale, let me know. I prefer junk silver, generic bullion or ASEs - nothing collectible with high premiums.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by todeen

This was an interesting thread that died.

So have the Net54 accounts of many of the participants in it.