The long awaited PSA half grade!

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=632036


how will this change our collections?

(slabbed folk)

BcD

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Posted By: barrysloate

How many cards already graded by PSA will now have to be resubmitted? Probably a ton.

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Posted By: Lance

It will probably cost a lot of people a lot of money to find out their cards were "properly" graded to begin with.

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Posted By: Doug

Maybe the PSA 8 Wagner will get regraded and 8.5 now...seriously though, I'm sure they will be making a fortune on resubmissions which may have had something to do with the idea.

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Posted By: Brad

Interesting read, thanks for posting!

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Posted By: Paul S

Barry -- that was my first impression. Also, did anyone notice how much of the impetus for the half-grade -- according to the article -- was based upon filling the price gap between high end cards? The price wagging the grade, not the other way around. IMO, completly dollar driven.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Looks like PSA blinked since the competition was kicking it around....tons of money they will rake in on resubmissions.

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Posted By: Mark T

pretty much useless now, like they were before. I bet it was a move by PSA to get more cards cracked out and submitted again.

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Posted By: MikeU

I did not like the following statement:

"Last but not least, remember that cards submitted under this program will never be in jeopardy of going down in grade. So, the only risk in submitting cards under this new program would be the cost of the submission since there is no guarantee that the cards will reach the higher, half-point grade. In other words, cards submitted under this service will always be returned to the customer, at minimum, in the same grade they arrived in."

Unfortunately, this paragraph speaks volumes.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

This is some fine double-speak:

Keep in mind that a card that reaches a half-point grade is considered an exceptional example within the particular grade. In other words, the half-point does not represent the mid-point between grades. It is a way of distinguishing between average cards within the grade and ones that exhibit premium quality. Furthermore, cards that do not achieve the half-point increase and remain at the whole number grade are not viewed as “low-end” for the grade by PSA experts.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What if you resubmit a card hoping to get the extra half grade and it comes back trimmed? You have to assume they have tightened their standards over time.

Leon- we have two identical threads running at the same time.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Almost single handedly stopped this the previous time PSA tried to get this through. I wonder now, if he'll send anything in for regrading or what his opinion of this matter is.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

might be re-graded for FREE!
that would be fair on PSA's part!

8.5 Wagner-heee hee hee

BcD

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Posted By: Sean C

that's all I can say at this point.

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Posted By: Brian

8.5 is the new 8 for the registry types...

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Posted By: MikeU

Rich K,

You missed their "turn a blind eye" policy.


"Last but not least, remember that cards submitted under this program will never be in jeopardy of going down in grade. So, the only risk in submitting cards under this new program would be the cost of the submission since there is no guarantee that the cards will reach the higher, half-point grade. In other words, cards submitted under this service will always be returned to the customer, at minimum, in the same grade they arrived in."

Seriously, this policy is worse than:

1. Schilling your own auctions.
2. Ripping Monte Irvin off on his HOF plaque.
3. Having only a 99.0% positive feedback on eBay.

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Posted By: Andrew S.

I just rounded up my entire PSA graded collection and am selling every one of them at auction.

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Posted By: Terry

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 's!!

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Posted By: Jim Dale

So what does this mean for PSA 10's? I know there are very few vintage PSA 10's but certainly they won't be given a 10.5 grade. So now are PSA 10's in general going to be worth "less" then the PSA 10's of the future? Will they grade PSA 10's like BGS does its BGS 10's?

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Jim,

At first glance, I don't think this will have an impact on 10s, since PSA says they won't have a 9.5 grade. Everything below a 9 though, will have the .5 grade.


Steve

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Posted By: Matt

Will the new slabs be visually different then the old slabs so you will know if what you're looking at is a new 5 or an old 5?

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Posted By: peter ullman

i don't see why this would change psa 10's in any way. this is a good service...but too bad money is the motivation. diluting cards a bit graded under the older system as well. maybe on the bright side, psa can correct some of their faux pas i while they're at it! Doesn't matter much to me as I do not shop there.

pete in mn

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

10, 9.5, 9.0, 8.5, 8.0, 7.5, 7.0, 6.5, 6.0, 5.5, 5.0, 4.5
4.0, 3.5, 3.0 2.5, 2.0, 1.5, 1.0, .5

10, 9.75, 9.50, 9.25, 9.0, 8.75, 8.50, 8.25, 8.0, 7.75, 7.50, 7.25, 7.0, 6.75, 6.50, 6.25, 6.0, 5.75, 5.50, 5.25, 5.0....etc.

Patrick

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Posted By: Bill Todd

...just not here.

The coin grading system in current use was originated in the 1800s. Don't remember offhand who it was that came up with it, but he felt that the numbers reflected a rational pricing structure. Grades went from 1 to 70. 60 is uncirculated, and 70 is perfect. An uncirculated coin "should" trade for about 60-70 times the price of a real beater. (At that time, anyway.) Eventually there was the "half grade" of 65. And, of course, then the 62 and 63. And 64 for the coin that "didn't quite make it"...ad nauseam. You just wait. In another 20 years, you'll see PSA grading cards as 7.3s.

Bill

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

PSA seems to have thought the implications of this through reasonably well. In the long term I think it will probably be a good thing, as it will increase the inherent accuracy of the system in a meaningful way. In the short term however, there is going to be some pain and confusion, not to mention considerable expense. I predict there are going to be a ton of re-submissions, particularly at the high end.

If I have a nice PSA 8 to sell, for example, I will probably feel compelled to try to get a bump up to 8.5, in order to be able to compete with other sellers with high end 8's who have had theirs re-graded as such. (Assuming of course that the card is one where the increase in market value associated with the half grade bump would justify the re-grade expense.)

Oh well, at least I won't have to re-submit any of my PSA 9's or 10's. I'm glad they decided not to include 9.5 in the new scale.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ahh, Eric, there's the rub: you'll probably be 'compelled' to send in your 8s before selling them in order to possibly get a bump up. That's exactly what PSA is depending on.

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Wow! If I was a set registry collector I would have a big knot in my stomach. This has the potential to have a guy in close 5 spots in a set send in his set and then jump to the top with half grade bumps. In turn the others if wanting to keep there ranking would have to follow. Could you imagine the cost if you felt compelled to send in say 10 different 500 card sets. 5000 cards at what 6-10 dollars a card just guessing cost so an extra 30-50k to make sure you keep your cherished ranking. And maybe after all that expense you fall a few notches because your cards did not bump a half grade. I am really happy right now that I am not a set reg guy. To those that are good luck. Also to those of you holding psa 8 graded cards the value has just been cut in half!

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Posted By: Double-P-Enterprises

The dumbest move I've seen made in the hobby lately. PSA certainy does not have the interests of collectors at heart in making this move, it's purely financial. For collectors and investors SGC has been crushing PSA. I guess they had to try something. I feel this will come back to bite them hard.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

If SGC made this change, there would be much praise on this board. Oh, you mean SGC does half grades; oh, I guess that means it must be wonderful!

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

A brilliant move financially for PSA, and I think they are so firmly entrenched it will cost them very little in terms of ill will/defections. Product upgrades happen all the time, is it really that different?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

That they will only raise the grade, and not lower it, tells a tale. If they said the grade could be lowered, fewer people would resubmit. As even PSA loyalists say there are weak and strong 7s, 8s, 5s, etc, an objective grading system would allow for a resubmitted card to be raised or lowered 1/2 point.

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Posted By: cmoking

"What if you resubmit a card hoping to get the extra half grade and it comes back trimmed? You have to assume they have tightened their standards over time."

Barry, it won't happen. In the PSA article, they write:

"Last but not least, remember that cards submitted under this program will never be in jeopardy of going down in grade."

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Posted By: MVSNYC

since i just read this now, i guess i haven't yet formulated an opinion...my first reaction is that it will at least produce more accurate grades. it will (or should in theory), properly designate weaker cards and stronger cards...

well, i have some VERY strong T206 8's, so maybe they'll get my $$$ afterall to review...it's a bit of a gamble, but would pay-off bigtime if they get the bump...


very interesting news.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

"Last but not least, remember that cards submitted under this program will never be in jeopardy of going down in grade."

Guess this confirms what we all have known, that if PSA has graded it, it is graded either accurately or possibly conservatively and there is no chance the card is altered. That should make some of the high volume holder buyers happy.

Edited to add that I agree that it is a brilliant move from a financial standpoint.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Calling Jim C

Calling Jim C

Call for Mr. Jim C

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Greed, plain and simple. The fact that they are unwilling to review the cards de novo makes that clear. I have only a handful of registry sets left in PSA 8 and there is no way I am sending these cards in. However, if I were selling them....how can you not? And then if you don't send in an 8 would you advertise on your listing: "THIS CARD WAS NOT SENT IN TO PSA FOR THE HALF GRADE UPGRADE. SEND IT IN AS IT'S THE STRONGEST 8 ON THE PLANET!"

NB: Charlie, will your auctions now say: "PSA 8.5++++++"? Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Posted By: Matt

"it will (or should in theory), properly designate weaker cards and stronger cards..."

since they guarantee that no cards will be downgraded, I don't think it will do that at all...

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Posted By: Paul Moss

They should have adopted the Richter earthquake scale, ie. 5.4, 7.8, 8.3, etc., then we'd really know how strong the card is for the grade.

Brilliant, eh?

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Posted By: James Gallo

So they say as of Feb 1st, the new system will be up and running. Does this mean if you submit cards after that date or if they are graded after that date? I have a 100+ modern cards sitting at PSA and this was the first thing that came to mind. Also pisses me off that I just got back a pile of 1952 Topps that I could use a half grade bump on.


This is a great line

"A submitter may be willing to accept a PSA grade that is slightly lower than the grade from a competitor, which is very common, so filling out the submission form accurately is crucial."


I also find the whole SMR thing to be REALLY funny. They can't get prices even close with what they have and they are going to add additional grade and try to track more prices.

It really does become abig joke at some point.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Jantz

I guess if PSA wants to go with this half-grade policy they can. All I know is that it won't affect my collecting either way.

that's my $.025 (sorry couldn't resist)

Jantz

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Posted By: Trae R.

Maybe soon they'll start giving two separate grades, one for the front and one for the back!




-------------------------------------------------
All Things T206: http://www.T206.org
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T205.org Coming Soon!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"since they guarantee that no cards will be downgraded, I don't think it will do that at all..."

matt- i meant when you send in raw cards...this new half grade system should, in theory, properly delegate cards, for better and for worse.

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Posted By: Matt

agreed, but with such a huge chunk of the existent cards already slabbed it is only going to skew the market incorrectly towards higher grades.

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Posted By: Jeff Shepherd

Now when you resubmit and the card garners a half grade bump - does it keep the old cert. number or is it given a new one? Do they grade in the holder or crack then grade?

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Posted By: marty q

wow!!! purely a money move, if a card can go up a half grade why could it not go down a half??

well of course it can, but that won't be good buisness for what they are trying to accomplish!!!

with all of the other area's psa could have improved on (better slabs, better relations, etc etc, add your own) this is what they come up with??

benefit-dealers , auction house's, set registry builders.

losers- collectors, from the high end to the low, if you collect 2,3 and 4 grade you now have to tend with the 2.5,3.5.4.5 grades, that maybe otherwise would have been in a 3 or 4 holder, same for the high end guy's.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

A question - will a card graded by PSA after the advent of the new grading regime be obvious when it does not receive a half-grade?

If not a seller could (or, to be, frank WILL certainly) claim that the card was graded prior to the half-grades and advertise/promote the card as sure go up half a grade?

Also, I guess a lot of sellers will re-submit for the half-grade and when they don't get it they will sell it and promote the card as "sure to go up" since no one will know that they already tried (and failed).....Ah the possibilities boggle the mind!!!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What a deal...

How do they make more money... with "point 5's", 'cause guys that love graded cards will send 'em back in for regrading...

And after that, more decimalization. It should be good at least twice more, quarters, then tenths.... And Trae has the foresight to envision back grading... woa!!!! only thing left after that would be each of the corners (not fair to Colgans collectors), or grading the edges. The mind and the wallet numb at the thought of it all.

How long will the slab folks follow along, paying for this?

A bunch of you guys are right up there above. Time to sell 'em. Or time to bust 'em out and forget about slabbing. Or time to resubmit cards and send those guys even more money.

It all reminds me of Tulipmania and Star Bellied Sneetches.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i'm confused...for years people have been saying that PSA should have half-grades (like SGC), so that grading would be more accurate...now they finally announce it, and everyone is bashing them...i don't get it?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

The $64,000 question to me is what is PSA's position if a card is resubmitted and it is discovered to be altered? They have not addressed that (at least not directly).

If their policy will be to return the card in the original graded slab, then will someone please explain to me how that is not fraud. Here you would have the largest card authentication service KNOWINGLY RETURNING TO CIRCULATION a card opined by it to be unaltered THAT THEY NOW KNOW IS ALTERED. Where is the FBI when you need them?!

If their policy will be to return such cards in altered slabs, then the first question I would ask anybody offering to sell me a PSA whole-grade card is whether it was resubmitted for the half-grade increase. If the answer is no, then I would think the market value of the card would plummet because that would signify the card owner most likely has serious concerns the card is altered. Why else would he not have resubmitted it if there was no risk of the card being numerically downgraded?

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Posted By: Jerry Rucker

And the Hits just keep on Coming