JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[sports-rings]

Fascinating story today on autographalert.com today about taking items JSA had already certified as genuine autographs, replacing them with Christopher Morales certificates and then submitting them to JSA again.

The article also implies that regular clients to JSA get special treatment and the benefit of the doubt when submitting items.

They story is worth a read.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Glad that I decided at the beginning of my collecting career (25 years ago) not to get involved in autographs. Not taking sides in this story at all...but it proves that there is no exact science except getting it signed in person or by by someone who you trust implicitly.

By the way the link to the story is:

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html

Jeff

[slidekellyslide]

Here's the link http://autographalert.com/news.html

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Glad that I decided at the beginning of my collecting career (25 years ago) not to get involved in autographs. Not taking sides in this story at all...but it proves that there is no exact science except getting it signed in person or by by someone who you trust implicitly.

Collecting autographs is in the same category as game used equipment and uniforms...one huge leap of faith. How embarrassing this must be for JSA...far worse than the Sal Bando incident.

[RobertGT]

All I can say is 'wow.'

True story: I once brought two items to be authenticated by Spence (then with PSA/DNA) at the Philly show when it was in Fort Washington, Pa.

The items were 500 HR 8X10 photos and single balls signed by "Original 11" at one of the historic Atlantic City shows in the 80s.

The 11 balls, which are in their own frame, and 11 photos, which are in their own huge frame, were obtained in person and signed at the same A.C. show.

The balls passed. The photos failed.

[keithsky]

Third party authenticating is a joke. I have gotten things personally signed and wanted to sell them but people are so obsessed with JSA and PSA they won't buy your items without one of there certs so I have gotten them authenticated only to have them come back fake. The best way is to get items signed in person so you know they are real and these guys flunk them doesn't leave you much choice selling other than you hope the buyer trust you. The latest was a Harold Baines 3x5 card I got signed in person and made a White Sox display that Mears auctioned off last month and JSA said it was fake. Who is going to fake a Baines 3x5 autograph. You can buy real ones all day long on Ebay for less than 5.00. Unreal.

Keith Janosky

[D. Bergin]

That's pretty depressing.

Goes to show that not only does Coach's Corner and Morales ruin the autograph market with their fakes, but good autographs are probably being taken off the legitimate autograph market at an astounding clip every time they even come into contact with them.

Not to make excuses for Spence.

It's definitely not something I haven't suspected for quite some time.

[tinkereversandme]

My big issue with this whole debacle is that, has anyone ever seen an item authenticated by the authenticating firm behind this story?

P.A.A.S? I would like to see them tested and see how they fare.

It is embarrasing, but not surprising that JSA would simply fail something because Morales liked it. Morales just has that reputation of turning a $1,000 item into $100, it seems with the prices that the Coach get.

Regards,

Larry

[slidekellyslide]

The story right under the JSA story about John Reznikoff is a good read too...I've seen in auction catalogs his name attached to just about every lock of hair that gets auctioned off...how in the world does someone go about authenticating hair??? Wouldn't you have to do a DNA test and compare with a known relative?

[HRBAKER]

Larry,

If that's the case then they are evaluating a COA from Morales and not a signature. Sure maybe someone has an ax to grind here but this really is the same cautionary tale over and over again. The value in any COA is that there is a perception in a "market" that it has value, to me it has never been anything more than a paid-for best guess. When you look at it like that should it surprise anyone if it's good one time and not the next, personalities aside.

Jeff

[keithsky]

That's the problem anymore. authenticating used to be on all there certs the item was authenticated as genuine now it's just there opinion. Hell anyone can give an opinion on anything and the bad thing is they get paid for a GUESS and then wave all responsibility because it's an opinion. Wish I could go to my job everyday and just give an opinion if I'm doing my job right or wrong. I think I would be fired. As long as people pay for this service they'll continue to stay around.

Keith Janosky

[timzcardz]

I can't say that I'm surprised.

[mcgwirecom]

Obviously he is not doing his due diligence and examining the autograph. I think some authenticators are just spreading themselves too thin with their expertise. I can see someone being an expert on a few autographs but it seems ridiculous to be able to autheticate everything. I wonder what his response was to this. Did the person doing this test inform him at that time?

On a nother note I always felt you could get some PSA graded cards and re-submit them to prove you don't get a Gem Mint 10 grade twice! But who would take the chance of cracking out a 10 and re-submitting it....

[keithsky]

That's what I was saying in my last post, they don't have to take the time to examine anything at any length anymore because it's just an opinion. If they are swamped with orders and spreding them self thin they might just look at something quick and not worry about it since again it's just an opinion and don't have to worry if it's right or wrong since they won't get sued because once again it's just an opinion.

keith Janosky

[David Atkatz]

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

[oriolesbb6]

Would love to hear a JSA response.........

[David Atkatz]

Who cares what they have to say? STOP LISTENING TO THEM!

[oriolesbb6]

I"m not sure I care but sure would be entertaining...

[oriolesbb6]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

Funny your avatar is an autographed baseball.....Thats entertaining as well

[David Atkatz]

You miss my point completely. I was quoting others on this thread. I am, if I do say so myself, an educated autograph collector--2011 will mark fifty years of collecting.

(And that 1927 Yankees baseball is one of the centerpieces of my collection.)

[oriolesbb6]

Probably did, but I am easily entertained.....

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

No need to attack me David...I am allowed my opinion. My statement was about a decision I made at the beginning of my collecting career. I felt uncomfortable making large financial decisions about autographs that I was not present at when they were signed. I decided that I could do without that part of the hobby. If you are 100% comfortable with your knowledge and experience, more power to you. I just didn't want to deal with the doubt.

Jeff

[prewarsports]

If you know what you are doing, autographs are as safe as any other hobby where lots of money changes hand. Cards on the other hand can be bleached, trimmed, glue removed, paper added, etc. At least any potential issues with an autograph are out there to be seen by the naked eye! With any hobby, you buy from people you trust who will stand behind the item forever and that is your comfort, not the 3rd party!

[David Atkatz]

You know, Jeff, every time there's a posting about some "authenticator's" massive f*ck-up, someone (or two, or three...) will post about how happy he is not getting involved with autographs, and implying, of course, that anyone who does is a fool. It's gotten real old, real quickly.
Autographic material is one of the most important--if not the most important--historical reference. We are all indebted to those, throughout the centuries, who have preserved it, passed it on, and made it available to museums, archives, and universities.
The idea that it's only good "if I've seen it signed myself," is as patently absurd as if those on the other side of this board were saying a card is only good "if I've seen it printed myself."
If, by your own admission you know very little about something, it may behoove you to refrain from publicly commenting about it.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You miss my point completely. I was quoting others on this thread. I am, if I do say so myself, an educated autograph collector--2011 will mark fifty years of collecting.

(And that 1927 Yankees baseball is one of the centerpieces of my collection.)

Would you ever sell it without a cert from JSA or PSA?

[David Atkatz]

If I were to sell it, absolutely. No one who knows anything about autographs, would doubt its authenticity. And if someone wasn't interested because Jimmy Spence hadn't vetted it, so be it.
BTW, I was, years ago, offered $60,000 for it by a collector--with no cert. I didn't sell it. It will pass to my children.

[Bilko G]

For the vast majority buying and selling autographs has just come down to buying and selling certs. It seems like the actual autograph doesn't mean much anymore, its the cert that means everything. If its certified authentic by PSA or JSA its money in the bank it seems.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

For the vast majority buying and selling autographs has just come down to buying and selling certs. It seems like the actual autograph doesn't mean much anymore, its the cert that means everything. If its certified authentic by PSA or JSA its money in the bank it seems.

Unfortunately, you're right. However, everyone should remember that third-party authentication is an expert opinion only. If one expects zero errors, they will be disappointed. However, I would like to point out that, while there have been unexcusable (and hopefully rare) "false positives" in the past, these cases are "false negatives," and I would prefer authentication companies to err on that side if at all.

I will echo an earlier poster and lament the far-reaching effect that Morales, STAT, and Coaches Corner are having on the hobby. Absolutely terrible.

In the end, while I have seen many shout "buy the card, not the holder" when it comes to grading, we have to remember to do the same with autos, although legitimacy itself is far less subjective than any grade.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You know, Jeff, every time there's a posting about some "authenticator's" massive f*ck-up, someone (or two, or three...) will post about how happy he is not getting involved with autographs, and implying, of course, that anyone who does is a fool. It's gotten real old, real quickly.
Autographic material is one of the most important--if not the most important--historical reference. We are all indebted to those, throughout the centuries, who have preserved it, passed it on, and made it available to museums, archives, and universities.
The idea that it's only good "if I've seen it signed myself," is as patently absurd as if those on the other side of this board were saying a card is only good "if I've seen it printed myself."
If, by your own admission you know very little about something, it may behoove you to refrain from publicly commenting about it.

David, I do not want to make this personal, but you apparently do. I have collected sports memorabilia for 25 years, not quite your 50 years but enough to know a thing or 2 about the hobby. I never implied anything at all. I know many autograph collectors that I have a great deal of respect for, and I have had the same debate with them.

Also, where did I write that I didn't know anything about autographs? I just said that I made the decision to not include them in my collection. Sorry, but I think that your foolish if you think that you can tell with 100 percent certainty that each and every autograph is real (if you haven't seen it signed in front of you). If you weren't there, you can't guarantee it with 100% certainty, sorry. You might be 99.99% sure, but you can't guarantee it, period. With clubhouse signatures, secretarial and spouse signers, not to mention devious forgers, there are no 100 percent guarantees. That is my opinion, not about you directly (or other knowledgeable collectors) but about that segment of the hobby in general.

BTW, If you haven't read the book Operation Bullpen, do yourself a favor and pick it up.

Jeff

[David Atkatz]

Fine. Then don't collect. Everyone get's fooled sometime. The more you know, though, the less likely that is. I'll settle for being right 99.99% of the time. ;-)
Of course, there is 100% certainty with your "sports ephemera," isn't there?
And I have read it, Jeff. Anyone fooled by Greg Marino's garbage knew nothing about autographs.

[ibuysportsephemera]

David,

I wish you good luck with your collecting endeavors.

Jeff

[David Atkatz]

As Voltaire said, "Chance (luck) favors the prepared mind."
But thanks, anyway.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I will echo an earlier poster and lament the far-reaching effect that Morales, STAT, and Coaches Corner are having on the hobby. Absolutely terrible.

They are not the problem, and they've had no effect on the hobby, IMHO.
No "collector" buys their garbage. No one who is a member here, for example, is fooled by their crap.
The problem, again, IMO, is the total reliance placed upon the opinions of the "legitimate" authenticators, to the exclusion of all else. (Especially to the work required to develop and advance one's own expertise.)

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

They are not the problem, and they've had no effect on the hobby, IMHO.
No "collector" buys their garbage. No one who is a member here, for example, is fooled by their crap.
The problem, again, IMO, is the total reliance placed upon the opinions of the "legitimate" authenticators, to the exclusion of all else. (Especially to the work required to develop and advance one's own expertise.)

David -Take a look at some of the non ebay auction sites. Of course the people on this board would not buy from those sites but there is an effect on the hobby.
I have been told more than a few times that "I won't collect autographs anymore" by people who have been burned. They were collecting, they were trying to learn, but they got burnt. End of their story.

[David Atkatz]

Richard, how did you manage to get to where you are today without PSA and JSA?
If I decide tonight that I'd like to collect, say, Rolex wristwatches, and then, knowing nothing about them, buy one from a vendor on E. 65th Street, and find out later I was burned, whose fault is it?
I submit it would be mine, and not the fault of the guy who was more than happy to take my money.

[RichardSimon]

I spent a lot of time educating myself.
I did not have the $$ that PSA had to advertise themselves into the position they now occupy.

[David Atkatz]

That's my point Richard. You became an expert. You didn't need their help to do it; they didn't even exist at the time.
They are unnecessary, and, in fact, have done much more harm than good.

[barrysloate]

David- I've always respected your knowledge in this hobby, and know you are an expert when it comes to Yankees memorabilia. And I know you put alot of time and effort into getting that knowledge.

But it's hard for me to look at the autograph hobby as anything but a very dangerous place to hang out. I never did collect autographs, and was never crazy about selling them. And I found this article truly frightening.

[J.McMurry]

The more disturbing aspect of this article to me is the fact that this site(for the second time that I know of) has attempted to paint C.Morales in a positive light.

It certainly lends creedence to the assertion the company will fail anything that has previously been certified by any other forensic examiner.

But the only items they sent in were from Morales, so where is the proof that they will reject everybody?

The "reliable" outfits have been rubber stamping Morales and others stuff fake for years, The screwup by JSA imo was by not refusing to accept the items for examination.

[HRBAKER]

It seems to me that they found on several of these items 10-12 reasons to question their authenticity where before they hadn't, same piece different result. Even when you factor out the personalities and the agendas - pretty eye opening.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

David- I've always respected your knowledge in this hobby, and know you are an expert when it comes to Yankees memorabilia. And I know you put alot of time and effort into getting that knowledge.

But it's hard for me to look at the autograph hobby as anything but a very dangerous place to hang out. I never did collect autographs, and was never crazy about selling them. And I found this article truly frightening.

Thanks very much for the kind words, Barry.
It's only frightening, though, if you rely on third party authenticators.

[ray1954]

I have to add my 2 cents. I have been collecting autographs for 25 years getting most of mine form the source - in person - so I know what I got. I do sell at times and found that if you have a JSA certification, your profit opportunity is greater. While I tell people I got the autograph myself, that is not good enough since there crooks on ebay that say the same thing. So, I bring some every now and then to Sports Shows and get stickers on them. I have found they do get some wrong. But again, it is only their opinion - I know what right or wrong (since I get the myself). Any expert in any field can occasionly get it wrong - just need to be right more times than wrong . But I just wanted to say - "it is what it is". If you are collecting autographs (just like anything else), rely on your own knowledge - learn and be your own expert. You will enjoy the hobby more.

-Ray

[glynparson]

Cards on the other hand can be bleached, trimmed, glue removed, paper added

If you know what you are looking for these are easy to spot in almost all cases. Hell I cant even tell you if I signed something I change my signing so much. to claim an autographs authenticity is easier to determine than cards almost makes me pi$$ my pants laughing.

Also i would much rather a company reject good stuff as bad than grade bad stuff as good.

[danc]

My two cents...Every collecting genre has their "trusted-experts". Whether it be cards, coins, stamps or comics. A place of trust. While it's wonderful to go the AuctionAlert way and stand up and say "if you trust a third party authenticator, you are a fool", but what would happen if "the-big-two" went down? What would that mean for the hobby as all these "anti-two" companies and crooked authenticators would remain? Certain uncertainty.

If you go through a reputable auction catalog that has been authenticated "by-the-big-two", the smartest people in the business will probably shake his/her head at certain items saying "how can that be passed?", but a large majority of the items in the catalog will be authenticated with the correct decision.

The only problem is that the item/s you are most offended by will sell for $75,000, while if it was authenticated by a "pass-anything-authenticator", it would have only brought $800, giving too much power to the reputable authenticator. Mathewson ball, anyone?

Autographs are unlike any collecting genre as all you need to begin your business is a pen and blank piece of paper and that's it, and people have absolutely ruined the joy for many (including myself who stopped collecting ten years ago) because it's so simple to make a decent living being a thief as the government is too busy with other things.

It's all about opinions, but can there ever be a perfect authenticating firm? No. An authenticating firm that can get it right even 90% of the time? Doubt it. Will there always be doubters and will "good items fail" and "bad items pass"? Of course.

In closing...the people who educate themselves have always had the advantage in anything in life and if you have chosen to live and breath this business (as many do and have and I have), you know what is going on.

DanC

[barrysloate]

David- Ideally, every autograph collector should study the field in detail and become his own expert in determining authenticity. But in the collecting world not everybody wants to do this. Some prefer to pay an expert a fee to authenticate for them. That's why, for example, people hire a broker to sell their home rather than do it themselves; they don't want to have to deal with all the legal hurdles and want the professional to take care of it for them.

But if it turns out that the experts are not so good at what they do, it's going to drive many collectors out of the hobby. That's just the nature of the beast.

[sphere and ash]

The article is not just pointing out authentication errors--no one expects 100% accuracy--but the ONE-SIDEDNESS of one authenticator's errors. Every authenticator has an error rate, and if you are really conducting analyses these errors should be randomly distributed. The whole point of the article is that the errors here are not randomly distributed, but distorted by bias (everything from one source is good, everything from another source is bad).

I would bet you will find similar biases in card grading. I have never seen a grading population report, but I would bet it does not fit a normal (i.e., bell curve) distribution. My hunch is that large, favored customers cause grade inflation at the highest grades.

The question for anyone buying anything (and particularly autographs, because the rate of fraud is higher) is this: can you survive your mistakes?

[tinkereversandme]

Well put Dan and Barry! It's no different than any field -housing, medical, insurance, our leaders and the political system- and we come to depend on the expertise of those who went through the channels (and don't these guys just compare signatures for a living?) and if we find out that they are anything but experts, that's when the issues start and opinions begin.

AA tested Spence and Spence failed and showed how ignorant his outfit really is. Did AA test PSA/DNA and if AA did, did they pass and this wasn't mentioned? And if JSA and PSA/DNA went down, would there be another company courageous enough to be experts and what would become of all these items in collections with their certificates if judged a second time to be suspect? This is all a shame and yet another black eye for the hobby and you can count me as a former collector as well.

Regards,

Larry

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

I would bet you will find similar biases in card grading. I have never seen a grading population report, but I would bet it does not fit a normal (i.e., bell curve) distribution. My hunch is that large, favored customers cause grade inflation at the highest grades.

No truer statement could be made, imo. I bet if I went to get the Gretzky/McNall T206 Wagner graded it would come back without a number

[shelly]

I saw this story a long time ago on another web site. This is very old news. Look at the dates on the coa's and rejection letters. Why is this dredged up know? Could this have anything to do with a current slander law suit. Just asking.

[perezfan]

It was a set-up, and tantamount to entrapment. The site that exposed this matter clearly has an axe to grind with JSA and PSA. They have a clear agenda and are seeking vengeance.

Granted, JSA should have taken the time to research the auto's and not automatically reject them. But rest assured that the vast number of things done right by JSA/PSA will never appear on this accusatory site.