JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[Ladder7]

Why this behavior is deemed defendable by anyone here is troubling... Perhaps because you have items authenticated by these schysters and you're concerned yours' may not be legit. Well, most of us have 'em -myself included. Regardless, it's irrelevant.

If theyre innocent, let these millionaires speak up... I expect the silence to be deafening.

Entrapment? someone mentioned. Funny, sexual predators, Johns' and bait-car victims use that very defense.

[David Atkatz]

Gee... How did we ever manage before JSA and PSA? Better throw out all I acquired before the enlightenment.

Who says JSA and PSA are experts? Why... JSA and PSA!

(And Barry... we use realtors because realtors have created the system of home buying and selling. They create and have access to the magical listings. Just as, for many, many things, we use lawyers because we let lawyers create the system that makes them necessary.)

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But if it turns out that the experts are not so good at what they do, it's going to drive many collectors out of the hobby. That's just the nature of the beast.

Barry, when I was a young child, and would complain about what my mother served for dinner, she would say in her droll Jewish sarcastic way, "Good. More for me." She wasn't going to fight with me--this is dinner. Take it or leave it.

I feel the same way about the "collectors" you speak of. If they're not willing to educate themselves, it's fine with me if they find something else to acquire--and I mean acquire rather than collect.

Fewer people to fight with come auction time.

Of course, I'm a collector, and not a dealer ;-)

[barrysloate]

There are plenty of collectors who don't educate themselves. This is a hobby known for impulsive buying.

[Exhibitman]

It is unrealistic to suggest that there is no place for third party experts in a collecting field. If everyone had to be an expert before starting a collection there'd be about 10 collectors in the world because the vast majority of people simply would not devote the time and resources to learning in advance of buying that first item. As is the case with many things in life, many people do not have the time to become expert-level at autographs but still would like to own an item signed by a childhood hero or other meaningful figure, so there is a place for an authenticator in the collecting world.

There is no way that an authenticator will get it right every time--no human ever does. What I take away from the article as the troubling conclusion--if true--is that JSA did not fairly analyze the items in question.

As for false negatives and false positives, I am more comfortable with an expert who says he can't tell from time to time because autographs ain't manufactured items--they vary widely depending on the situation. I've shown these before but it bears repeating here: I got the first of these Lewis autographs in person, a friend got the second one at a different event:





I seriously doubt that an authenticator could deem them both genuine but they are.

[RichardSimon]

It is not necessary to become an expert in the field you are collecting.
Gaining some knowledge is certainly extremely important but if you find people to buy from that are totally trustworthy that would be your most important step if you don't make yourself into an expert.
To me that is the key. I have worked very hard to maintain a good reputation in this business and many of my customers have come to me because of a recommendation from a friend.
Find good dealers to buy from, guys who have done the hard work already, and you will be ok.
Those guys are out there, just ask some collecting friends for recommendations. Believe me, there are a number of dealers out there that you can buy from and not have to give your money to 3rd party authenticators after your purchase.

[drc]

I agree. Knowing who you are buying from is a key. There are many knowledgeable and honest sellers out there. Besides, being able to show you bought the item from a well known and reputable seller will only help the resale value.

[thetruthisoutthere]

One guy I would love to hear from is Mike Baker. He signed off (literally) on thousands of pieces of Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Willie Mays and others when he was a "authenticator (I use that term loosely)" for the now defunct GAI. That garbage has helped to dilute the hobby and bring values on legitimate autographed memorabilia way down. Compounding the problem is that the now defunct GAI is still listed as a Ebay prequalified authenticator. They (GAI) should be dropped from Ebay's list of prequalified authenticators immediately. Those who know absolutely nothing about autographs "depend" on the fact that Ebay lists them as a prequalified authenticator and then there are others (those who know the GAI garbage is bad) who take advantage of the fact that GAI is a Ebay prequalified authenticator. The problem, of course, is that (in my humble opinion) 80% of those who buy and sell autographs on Ebay don't have a clue. And that's where the knowledge of autographs helps. It helps to be able to trust certain people but always be cautious. We know that stuff is bad and we stay away from it, but the rest of the population relies on the fact that Ebay lists them as "someone to trust when it comes to autographs." I don't see the big deal in removing the now defunct GAI from that list. Or at the very least, ban the GAI certs with Mike Baker's name. The biggest problem that I see is that those people who should be reading this thread have no idea of its existence. I'd love to hear from you, Mr. Baker. Below is one of the thousands that you certed. Please, Mr. Baker, show is what exemplars you used to cert the below autographs.

Z1.jpg

Z2.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

And another major problem with the autograph hobby is that it isn't regulated or controlled. The only "regulation" are threads like this where knowledgeable collectors can offer their knowledge to others. And why are there so few of us that battle the producers and sellers of forgeries? One, we are outnumbered, and two, many of them work the intimidation angle. I can't count the number of stories I've read where a buyer of an autograph discovers he bought a forgery and when they attempt to leave negative feedback they are intimidated not to leave negative feedback because the buyer has threatened them with a lawyer response and the buyer backs off. I know I've gotten a little off track here, and I apologize, but I believe this is important to include in this particular thread. And speaking of regulating, how is it that anyone can call themselves an "authenticator?" Before the "authenticator" of the below autograph went into the authenticating business, him and his partner had to make a decision whether to start a hotdog stand business or become "authenticators." I think that says it all.

MATTY.jpg

[lentel]

With older autographs of those deceased. Would you guys say a cancelled check is a safer bet on being legit or have there been numerous issues with those being fakes as well? I am thinking of the ones that are actually bank perferated cancelled.
thanks

[RichardSimon]

You are pretty much safe with cancelled checks though occasionally a wife signed check could pop up, though those would be more inclined to be on endorsed checks.

[shimozukawa]

.

[hcv123]

Who says JSA and PSA are experts? Why... JSA and PSA!

(And Barry... we use realtors because realtors have created the system of home buying and selling. They create and have access to the magical listings. Just as, for many, many things, we use lawyers because we let lawyers create the system that makes them necessary.)

Could have quoted any number of comments to start, but this seemed like a good one. IMHO - the self proclaimed "expert authenticators" have created the system that makes them necessary. As much has been said I will try to make a few succinct points (all my opinions of course):

1) Biased intention aside what JSA did here is at least extremely poor business practice and deserves the highest levels of criticism, questions and scrutiny. If this is how they "authenticate", they should be out of the business.

2) I think the model used is a GREAT way to test autograph authenticators - In person signed pieces should be submitted multiple times to the same authenticators after having been submitted to a different authenticator. Throw in some clear forgeries for good measure with a "good" authenticators cert to test in the other direction as well. Develop some needed percentage of accuracy to be a "certified" authenticator - hey a whole new business model - authenticate the authenticator.

3) Chris Morales has deservedly no respect from any educated collector

4) Caveat Emptor - Like any purchase it is up to the individual to educate him/herself to a level of comfort to make the purchase. If you rely completely on others (who have not earned that trust) then you will likely be burned at some point.

5) PSA has some well deserved criticism here as well - just heard from a friend who cracked a "6" resubmitted and received an "8" - "objective grading standards"? - Not so much!

6) A) Buy the card not the holder. B) Buy the autograph not the cert/opinion!

7) It is too bad that all of this "3rd party" involvement is not at a higher standard as I strongly believe many who could have been active hobby participants have been "burned away".




-Howard Chasser

[Leon]

Tomorrow morning, any post in this thread that does not have a full first and last name, will have one put in the post. Either edit out ya'lls comments, put your name in your post, or I will do it for you tomorrow. Please remember the rules. I really don't care if you say stuff but you have to put your name by it. Any questions, let me know. It's all in the rules. I am not playing favorites or protecting any one or anything.... thanks

edited to say if you are only making a general comment about autographs or the hobby, not about anyone or any company, then your name doesn't have to be in the post.....again, it's all in the rules.

[FUBAR]

Jim Drysdale

Ok, here is my opinion.... i read the story and it just confirms to me not to go anywhere near anything Coach's Corner. If you read the story and think it paints Coach's Corner in a good light, you can't see the forest for the trees.

The only mistake JSA did was, the didn't back anything Morales.. period.. would any other person on here that has posted, back anything Morales said ... cause im calling Bull Sh*t if you say you would still buy the item!

If I seen an autograph i really wanted and i thought it was real... but then seen the CC, Stat COA, You could tell i was walking away because i would be getting smaller!

I trust three professional people's opinions- JSA, PSA/DNA, and Richard Simon.

[J.McMurry]

Lots of good comments made by many.

imo, Just as the "casual fan" has tainted modern baseball, the "casual collector/impulse buyer/investor" has tainted the sports collector hobby.

[GrayGhost]

JSA, PSA/DNA are the two "Gold standards". I wonder, as some have said, If advertising and promotion as well as knowledge and education makes it the reason? I see some on here like David and Richard, whose opinions, along w Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson and others who may not be the "big two", but have greate reputations, I would trust.

In the end, its all an OPINION. I think the buyer of the sig needs to do his own research and make informed decisions. I wish it was that simple, but stories like this one put a sour taste too. In the end, if you don't "feel right", don't invest a lot of money in a sig, no matter who authenticated it. That has to be the solution

Scott Roberts

[thetruthisoutthere]

It's an enormous advantage to be knowledgeable about autographs. I will admit that I have picked up some early Jeter autographs for a great price because I know exactly what to look for. But when it comes to autographs I always look at the autograph FIRST. I don't care who certed it or who produced it; I look at the autograph first. I wonder how many Jeter collectors own the "1998 Topps Co-Signers" autograph cards that contain the autographs of Derek Jeter/Scott Rolen or the card that contains the Derek Jeter/Eric Karros autographs. Most collectors don't realize that a number of the "Masters (the unsigned ones)" of those cards were backdoored and then the autographs of Jeter, Rolen and Karros were forged on those cards. Those cards have the Topps "Certified Autograph Issue" stamped on them. To collectors who don't know autographs they will just assume they have a Jeter/Rolen or Jeter/Karros autograph card because it came from Topps. But they are obvious forgeries. Below is a photo of the Jeter/Rolen forgeries on one of those masters.

JeterRolenFake.jpg

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

Jim Drysdale

Ok, here is my opinion.... i read the story and it just confirms to me not to go anywhere near anything Coach's Corner. If you read the story and think it paints Coach's Corner in a good light, you can't see the forest for the trees.

The only mistake JSA did was, the didn't back anything Morales.. period.. would any other person on here that has posted, back anything Morales said ... cause im calling Bull Sh*t if you say you would still buy the item!

If I seen an autograph i really wanted and i thought it was real... but then seen the CC, Stat COA, You could tell i was walking away because i would be getting smaller!

I trust three professional people's opinions- JSA, PSA/DNA, and Richard Simon.

While I agree, there is no good conclusion to be drawn from the story re: Coah's corner et al. I STRONGLY disagree with your statement "the only mistake JSA did was....." - IMO the primary mistake that JSA made was looking at ~8 items which he certified as good and 2nd time around certified them as bad - At best one would have to question how qualified he is to authenticate autographs - at worst - agree with the post and accept that he didn't even look at the signatures second trip - only the coa that accompanied it - an irresponsible/inexcusable busniess practice as an authenticator. imho.

-Howard Chasser

[steve B]

Originally Posted by hcv123

While I agree, there is no good conclusion to be drawn from the story re: Coah's corner et al. I STRONGLY disagree with your statement "the only mistake JSA did was....." - IMO the primary mistake that JSA made was looking at ~8 items which he certified as good and 2nd time around certified them as bad - At best one would have to question how qualified he is to authenticate autographs - at worst - agree with the post and accept that he didn't even look at the signatures second trip - only the coa that accompanied it - an irresponsible/inexcusable busniess practice as an authenticator. imho.

-Howard Chasser

I don't see it as a bad business practice to reject out of hand the opinion of someone who makes a living approving bad stuff.

It is probably a bad business practice to justify charging for that rejection by listing reasons. Although maybe not since a rejection simply saying "Fake because it's got a Morales cert" even at no charge will probably draw a lawsuit.

In any field there's people whose opinion is respected, some worthy some not. There are also people who deserve little or no respect for their opinions. And that usually happens because they have a proven track record of having no knowledge of the subject or of being wrong.

Ask me anything about repairing bicycles. I'll probably have a solid answer. And I've got repeat customers who apparently think so too.

Ask me about the certs I made for the diamonds I found in my road side garden. I know they're good, even if I did find them near that broken bottle. And I'll bet your dastardly local jewler will have a good laugh as he tells you they're just broken glass.

Steve Birmingham

[David Atkatz]

Nonsense. They had already certified those autographs as being genuine! Since they seem to render judgments without looking at the autograph, on what basis do you suppose they approved them the first time around?

[steve B]

The items submitted had the original certification markings removed. So they appeared as only having a certificate known to be bad - what 99% of the time? More? Who wouldn't simply reject those without looking at them?

So you're saying that if you were an authenticator you'd spend time actually looking over an autograph with a Morales cert?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

If they wanted to make it a real test they would have later on resubmitted the items without the Morales certs and seen how many got rejected.

But even then I'd be pretty acepting of an error on the side of caution.

They also didn't follow the entire path of the ones from someone else supposedly being stickered without a look. If the person bringing them in is known to have done a private signing, or run a show then the items are most likely good. And pre stickering them is efficient. They never said that they saw the letters being printed without a look, or even that the items didn't get looked at after the stickering.

Steve Birmingham

[ChiefBenderForever]

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, ect ect ect.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, etc etc etc.

I agree 100%. I've used JSA a lot in the past but seriously consider not using them again in the future. JSA (as well as the other authenticators) charge, IMO, a ton - but having them certify something for resale is a must in this day and age to get maximum dollar for the piece. The high price I pay is to have JSA look at the signature, NOT the certificate.

That being said, I have two JSA stories to relate, one that pertains to the subject, the other not so much, but relates to business practices.

Around 1999, I met Tiger Woods and had him autograph a huge Nike poster. Soon after that, I brought the poster to a National and had GAI certify it (back when GAI had a good reputation). A few years ago, as GAIs reputation went down the tubes, I decided to have JSA cert the poster. I was extremely worried that JSA was going to look at the GAI sticker in the bottom corner and automatically say no. I brought it to a White Plains show, paid the $100 fee, and could immediately see Spence look at the signature and the GAI sticker. Spence wasn't comfortable saying "yes" before he took pictures and sent them to his golf expert. He did so, and after the golf expert looked at it, JSA certed the poster (as they should have since I knew it 100% without question authentic). I was terribly worried GAI was going to sway them, but JSA did the right thing authenticated the poster on the merits of the signature, not the existing certificate.

Now - a bad JSA experience. Last year, I brought two Duke Maas signature to a White Plains show. I filled out the forms, indicated that the fee was $20/signature, paid my $40 and went on my way. A few hours later, I came back and was told my cards weren't looked at because JSA charges $75 each for Duke Maas. I called bullsh*t on them and told them to look at the website - the fees are stated there. JSA told me their internet was "temporarily" down. I pulled out my handy iPhone and went to the site myself and showed them the $20 fee listed. The guy dealing with me went to talk with Jimmy and came back to tell me that Jimmy would cut me a break and charge me $75.00 for the two. I laughed, and now the cards reside in PSA/DNA holders. (as a disclaimer, before posting this story, I went to JSA's site. The fee is now $40 for Duke Maas, but still not $75, which is what I was told it was last year). Talk about piss poor customer service!

- Jon Canfield

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by steve B

The items submitted had the original certification markings removed. So they appeared as only having a certificate known to be bad - what 99% of the time? More? Who wouldn't simply reject those without looking at them?

So you're saying that if you were an authenticator you'd spend time actually looking over an autograph with a Morales cert?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

A waste of time? THEY WERE PAID FOR THAT TIME!

Not actually examining the autograph is not only "bad business practice," it is theft.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, ect ect ect.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

A waste of time? THEY WERE PAID FOR THAT TIME!

Not actually examining the autograph is not only "bad business practice," it is theft.

Some good points there to consider.

With doctors, lawyers, car repairmen etc I generally try to find someone I believe is excellent in their field so that I can trust their opinion. Fortunately I've never had a major medical or legal problem. If it was bad enough I'd get a second opinion. Crummy pop culture reference now, but the difference here strikes me as a House/Dr Nick comparison.
I do most of my own contractor type work, and very nearly all my own plumbing. I've found a couple people that are excellent, and trust their work if it's something I can't handle. The guys that seem clueless never get to the quoting part

I do think David has an excellent point, and in my first post I did say that I thought it was probably bad practice to make up reasons that something was bad to justify charging the fee.I've been convinced that it's definetly poor practice, and not something a reputable company should do. Since it was in person I'd have probably just refused it with no charge. Through the mail would be a bit harder, I can't quite figure out how that sort of rejection would need to be worded legally.
I've been offered a few autographed items in the last couple years that would have been pretty nice, but 5 minutes of research about the quality of the certificates included led me to pass on all of them.

Back to the first point, true story. We get in a bike for a tuneup. With a hole in one tire big enough for me to put 3 fingers through. So we call and tell them they need a new tire, $20 for the tire no extra charge to put it on.
An hour later the wife comes in and says the husband works on cars and says the tire is fine and does not need to be changed! I show her the giant hole by holding up the tire with my fingers through the hole. She sticks with saying it doesn't need changing. And since we won't continue without changing it she'll take it somewhere else. (Which at that point was what I wanted as well) 2 weeks later the husband comes in. With the bike and reciept from another shop. Tuneup $100 instead of our $60. Tire $50 instead of our $20. Labor to put the tire on, another $20. And it still won't shift right and the brakes are dragging. The other shop just put the new tire on and charged them. Wonders if there's anything we can do for him.
We did get him going for a minimal charge, and he's become a regular customer- And doesn't question if we say a part needs replacing


Steve Birmingham

[prewarsports]

Put on your Depends undergarments Glyn I personally would find it easier to spot a fake autograph than a trimmed card and I have about the same amount of expertise in both cards and autographs.

Someone who knows what they are doing can take a 1 second look at a forged Ruth or Mantle and tell which is real and which is not. Even the good forgeries. Literally 1 second.

Even the best card experts in the world would need black lights, measuring devices and magnification etc. They could spot a fake Wagner in 1 second, but try looking at some T206 PSA 9 that has had 1/132" laser shaved off the top border and tell me how long if ever it takes to spot that!

I am not saying 2 experts would not reach the same conclusion, but a 1 second look with the naked eye is a heck of a lot easier than a few minutes with instruments to determine which is the worthless item.

I realize it is like pissing on a forrest fire to try and convince non autograph guys anything positive about the autograph hobby, but with a ton of experience in both cards and autographs, my "OPINION" is that there are more altered cards in PSA holders than there are fake autographs with PSA/DNA stickers.

No need to start anything on my statement above, it is just an opinion and despite anyone trying to tell me it almost made them piss their pants, I will stand behind it.

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I realize it is like pissing on a forrest fire to try and convince non autograph guys anything positive about the autograph hobby, but with a ton of experience in both cards and autographs, my "OPINION" is that there are more altered cards in PSA holders than there are fake autographs with PSA/DNA stickers.

I don't find this to be at all analogous. A T206 PSA 9 that has had "1/132" laser shaved off the top border" is still an authentic card that still has value. The grade is a misrepresentation, but the card is still real and possibly still very desirable. A fake autograph is completely valueless.

I think most of us can spot totally fake cards - things made in someone's basement on a laser printer - more easily than we can spot a fake signature created in someone's basement. And I'd wager that there are more fake autographs with PSA/DNA stickers than there are fake cards in PSA holders.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

A T206 PSA 9 that has had "1/132" laser shaved off the top border" is still an authentic card that still has value

Yeah. It still has "value." What value? 1/10-1/100 the value it will actually sell for because it's been misgraded?

[shimozukawa]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

I don't find this to be at all analogous. A T206 PSA 9 that has had "1/132" laser shaved off the top border" is still an authentic card that still has value. The grade is a misrepresentation, but the card is still real and possibly still very desirable. A fake autograph is completely valueless.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Yeah. It still has "value." What value? 1/10-1/100 the value it will actually sell for because it's been misgraded?

I'm guessing, given the example, that the PSA 9 T206 would have the value of a PSA9 T206. After all, the grading company would reimburse (though potentially in free grading *hit head*) the difference between the PSA9 and the "Authentic" grades for that particular issue. By contrast, the fake autograph with the sticker would have no recourse.

[David Atkatz]

You make a fine point. You stick to cards, then, and I will stay with autographs. It's a matter of taste.

(But, after fifty years, I don't need a third party to tell me what's real, and what isn't.)

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by canjond

Last year, I brought two Duke Maas signature to a White Plains show. I filled out the forms, indicated that the fee was $20/signature, paid my $40 and went on my way. A few hours later, I came back and was told my cards weren't looked at because JSA charges $75 each for Duke Maas. I called bullsh*t on them and told them to look at the website - the fees are stated there. JSA told me their internet was "temporarily" down. I pulled out my handy iPhone and went to the site myself and showed them the $20 fee listed. The guy dealing with me went to talk with Jimmy and came back to tell me that Jimmy would cut me a break and charge me $75.00 for the two. I laughed, and now the cards reside in PSA/DNA holders. (as a disclaimer, before posting this story, I went to JSA's site. The fee is now $40 for Duke Maas, but still not $75, which is what I was told it was last year). Talk about piss poor customer service!

- Jon Canfield

So basically, JSA told you no Maas?

You've been a great crowd, enjoy Whitesnake!

[RichardSimon]

And don't forget to tip your waitresses.

[Vintagedegu]

-

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

So basically, JSA told you no Maas?

You've been a great crowd, enjoy Whitesnake!

Thanks a lot...I'll remember not to take a drink the next time I read one of your posts.

[pscolgrafs]

With all due respect, it essential that the hobby be able to trust SOME OUTFIT out there. If there is no one to trust, there is uncertainty, confusion and collectors will give up. Sure, there are people here that HATE authenticators and proclaim themselves to be experts, but I bet these individuals won't get top dollar for their items since they are rather unknown to a large majority of the collecting population.

After all, didn't David (I believe you are murderer's row on eBay at the time)sell a pencil cut of Chesbro with two authenticating papers to go with it? Why not have it authenticated by PSA or JSA where he could have gotten maybe 5X the amount you got.

And if you sold that 1927 Yankees ball, don't you think you would get some authenticators to agree with your opinion and wouldn't you want to get the most out of it and go to the most popular and marketed firm?

Sure I get frustrated like all of you as I really want to believe these guys are doing a great job, but sometimes they look so damn stupid.

As far as AutographAlert's challenge. That was done so long ago. Old news. I have enclosed to a scan of an Andy Warhol signature that Stephen Koschal has authenticated. Now I don't know the first thing about Andy Warhol, but the cover says March 9, 1987, right? Warhol died on February 22, 1987.

Could it have been signed?

Most likely it was an issue dedicated to the life of a great artist.

[Exhibitman]

Classic...Reminds me of a yellow HOF plaque of Eddie Collins that I saw once offered on Ebay. I emailed to seller to inform him that the card was made several years after Collins' death...

[Lordstan]

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.
I have heard no one here proclaim they are "experts", but I know many, including myself, that are comfortable, which some exceptions, making their own decisions about whether an auto is good or not, regardless of which third party person is involved.
The problem with this specific test is not that JSA made a mistake. We have all made mistakes.
The way I see it is that one of two possibilities exist: 1)JSA rejected these items out of hand because of the Morales cert or 2)they are unable to certify items they previously thought were real for multiple reasons.
In the first scenario one could argue, as David stated before, for theft. They were paid for a service and did not provide it. In the second scenario, one has to question the skill of the authenticator. All the items previously passed and now they all fail for 10-12 reasons. How did they miss all 10 things before?
Considering the price they charge for their services, I guess I expect more.


Also in Karl's example, the shaved t206 would have some residual value, but then again so would the original t206, Type 1 photo, baseball program, or vintage baseball that has a fake autograph on it. The only place this would not apply would be the cut signature, where the paper would have no intrinsic value.

Mark Velarde

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.

Mark, what you say is great in theory. Unfortunately while many of us here have reached that stage as collector's I am guessing that the majority of the autograph buying public has not (and never will). So when it's time to sell, without that trusted third party authentication, your buying audience will be greatly diminished thereby reducing demand and, in turn, reducing value.

[Lordstan]

Phil,
I agree, that the "general" public are the ones who need third party certs the most, but with a few caveats.

First, I don't think the "general" autograph buying public is going to be going after the majority of the high end autographed items that collectors have on this board. Having any of the authenticators' certs isn't going to make the general public pay $5k for a cut sig of Gehrig or $60K or more for David's 27 Yanks ball. Besides the little problem of actually having the available money to spend, I think it takes a special type of person to spend that type of money on a piece of sports memorabilia, card, or autograph. I just don't see the average wife saying go ahead spend 20K on a signed ball, we don't need to use it for a whole host of things around the house. If you do have that loose change, you're make up a very tiny part of the "general" autograph buying public.

Plus, I also point out guys like Simon, Keating, Cocoran, Stinson, etc, who buy and sell all the time without any third party certs. These guys rely on their reputation that they will stand behind every auto they sell.

Second, I really am concerned with the seeming lack of youth in the BB Card/Sports memorabilia market. I wonder if in 20-30yrs if there will be people like us around wanting to spend they type of money that is spent now. Will a cert mean as much, if anything, if the marketplace contains far fewer people? I know people have been worrying about this forever, but as stuff gets more and more expensive, I think it does block entry into the marketplace of more people.

For me, when the time comes to sell all my stuff, it'll probably go to an auction house that can do whatever it wants, authentication wise, and then send me a check.

Best,
Mark

[mr2686]

Hey Mark...I thought I had first dibs before the auction houses?

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Plus, I also point out guys like Simon, Keating, Cocoran, Stinson, etc, who buy and sell all the time without any third party certs. These guys rely on their reputation that they will stand behind every auto they sell.

Second, I really am concerned with the seeming lack of youth in the BB Card/Sports memorabilia market. I wonder if in 20-30yrs if there will be people like us around wanting to spend they type of money that is spent now. Will a cert mean as much, if anything, if the marketplace contains far fewer people? I know people have been worrying about this forever, but as stuff gets more and more expensive, I think it does block entry into the marketplace of more people.

Well, I am 31 years old and have been actively buying and selling vintage sports memorabilia since, literally, in the hall of high school. I am fortunate to be born into a collecting family. My earliest memories of Christmas were my parents getting each other not clothes, not perfume, not jewelry, but antiques. In fact, my parents, myself, and wife still get each other antiques and whatever we collect for Christmas.

My dad has assembled a simply FANTASTIC collection of vintage oil cans and advertising porcelain and (VINTAGE) metal signs that would make the American Pickers weep.

I was born in '79, so my first steps into the sports collecting world was during the card boom of the 80s. Like any kid of the era, I couldn't get enough Canseco rookie cards. However, I noticed a few dealers at shows who sold nothing but older stuff. My mom and grandma bought me some older Pirates memorabilia (Clemente-era stuff). Soon, I was reading books about baseball history and was hooked. In high school, I was fortunate to sell my card collection for a decent price and started to buy and sell vintage (pre-1970 sportscards). I attended my first live Hunt Auction when I was a senior in HS, and still remain the youngest attendee at their auctions. It was then I became strictly devoted to selling vintage baseball memorabilia, and, especially autographs, which I began studying diligently during this era.

I see my younger cousins nowadays not collecting sports cards, but all that Pokeman stuff. The few card stores that remain within reasonable distances from me seem to have more Pokemon and non sports cards than baseball cards. I cringe at the prices on modern insert cards. I don't feel bad spening over $3,000 for a Honus Wagner cabinet photo when I Pujols refractor signed limited edition whatcha-ma-callit is "valued" at 5x that. I have yet to honestly run across anyone my age, or just a few years older/younger that deals with vintage sports stuff, let alone "quality" vintage material.

As for the first part I quoted, I strive one day to have my name known in the hobby as those guys. I can think of five guys off of the top of the head that weren't listed, but I trust with all my heart and soul. I am also not one to get caught up in 3rd party authenticators. Sure, I may buy stuff every now and then with a cert from them, but I have to feel good about it. I have seen too many slabbed fake Maris and Mantle sigs on eBay for my liking.

My first PSA horror story I ever heard was an area guy acquiring 3 Tiger Woods signs on 3x5s early in Woods' pro career at a tourney. I saw all three, one looked a bit rushed, which is common, the other 2 were textbook examples of early Woods sigs. He sent them to PSA, 2 came back slabbed, the other was deemed unauthentic. Funny that the rushed sig was one of the ones to come back slabbed!

Anyways, I do think about how the vintage hobby will look like in 30-40 years, let alone 20-30.

[parker1b2]

[QUOTE=whitey19thcentury;873250]Well, I am 31 years old and have been actively buying and selling vintage sports memorabilia since, literally, in the hall of high school.
I was born in '79, so my first steps into the sports collecting world was during the card boom of the 80s. Like any kid of the era, I couldn't get enough Canseco rookie cards. However, I noticed a few dealers at shows who sold nothing but older stuff. My mom and grandma bought me some older Pirates memorabilia (Clemente-era stuff). Soon, I was reading books about baseball history and was hooked. In high school, I was fortunate to sell my card collection for a decent price and started to buy and sell vintage (pre-1970 sportscards). I attended my first live Hunt Auction when I was a senior in HS, and still remain the youngest attendee at their auctions. It was then I became strictly devoted to selling vintage baseball memorabilia, and, especially autographs, which I began studying diligently during this era.

QUOTE]

Glad to see someone around my age, I'm 33, into vintage memorabilia and autographs. I feel sometimes like I am a dying breed of younger collectors who are into the vintage items. I remeber in High School and College talking about autographs that I had, and most of my friends never even heard of the players.
One thing I really miss about this hobby is the lack of Card Shows. It seemed like almost every month my father was driving me to shows all over NJ. Now they seem like they are few and far between.

[Piedmont Sport]

As I said before auction houses KILLED it - STAMP OUT AUCTIONS Dealers are now becoming auction houses - alot easier making 30% and not laying any money out or humping the cards and material in and out - standing 40 hours a weekend and eating shity food - and overpaying to support the promoters - who by the way are now auction houses. I could go on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by Piedmont Sport

As I said before auction houses KILLED it - STAMP OUT AUCTIONS Dealers are now becoming auction houses - alot easier making 30% and not laying any money out or humping the cards and material in and out - standing 40 hours a weekend and eating shity food - and overpaying to support the promoters - who by the way are now auction houses. I could go on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To play devil's advocate, card shows and shops were dying out long before auction houses came along. I remember around my area (about 25 miles away from Pittsburgh), there were literally like 5-6 shows a month, with 2 or 3 regular monthly shows. Those aren't counting the big one at the Palumbo Center with awesome autograph guests.

There were also stores in the mall and two great stores I used to frequent within 10-15 minutes from my house.

Those were both gone in the early 90s, long before the advent of online auctionhouses and TeleTrade, for that matter. Same with the amount/quality of shows.

There was the card boom of the 80s, then nothing. Sure, the Internet and Auction Houses put the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, but auction houses really didn't catch steam/popularity until a decade or so ago.

Plus, the majority of auction houses don't carry/sell/deal with the kind of items one would find at a normal local show. I know. The stuff at the only bi-monthly show in my area is beyond putrid, with only, literally 2 dealers with quality stuff I would even consider looking at.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Piedmont Sport

As I said before auction houses KILLED it - STAMP OUT AUCTIONS Dealers are now becoming auction houses - alot easier making 30% and not laying any money out or humping the cards and material in and out - standing 40 hours a weekend and eating shity food - and overpaying to support the promoters - who by the way are now auction houses. I could go on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I am biased but.....the fact of the matter is that collectors aren't buying fixed price cards in today's somewhat down market. They are waiting for auctions to see if they can either steal them, or at most, pay what the market will bear. I feel that most auctions today, except ebay, are fairly clean of shilling. And I doubt most auction houses make 30%. Maybe you should understand what you are talking about a little more before you speak? My small auction takes in 12.5% of a sale (total). That is, many times, less than ebay. Personally, I like auctions, participate in dozens of them and hope they continue and prosper. Otherwise, the cards/memorabilia we really want might not get sold in other venues. I have a solution for you though. If you don't like auctions don't bid in them. And good luck finding those tough items at fixed prices which you feel are a good deal. I too could go on and on . regards

[Lordstan]

I think the change in lifestyle represented by technology, video games, and internet is what has decreased young people entering in to the hobby.
1)There is much more competition for their time and money than ever before. To many young people, baseball is a slow boring game as compared to playing Halo on their PS3 teamed up with other people from across the world.
2) You combine that with the ridiculously high prices for autograph show guests.
3)Plus all the new shiny stuff that is neither cheap to buy nor retains its value for a significant time.
What we are left with are young people that are distracted, broke, and frustrated. What can be done to get them to want to take the time to collect vintage cards, autographs, etc?

Each advancement comes with good and bad. Ebay has opened up collcting across the country, but also opens up the market for fraud and decreases the number of shows. Auctions also negatively effect shows, but do allow many to be exposed to a far wider range of items to purchase.
There is a place for all types of collecting venues.

Mike,
Just remember the stuff won't come with any certs!

[Piedmont Sport]

There's as many as 2 auctions a week and many major auctions are running once a month internet auctions and charging 19.5 % buyer premium -and depending on the deal they strike with the seller another 10% is added - with all these auctions it takes away the element of surprise - trying to find that gem - it's not a down market - our shop has never done as well - people enjoy talking and seeing what new stuff came in - thats just my opinion - i know it's old school - but it does help bring in some young collectors that may open their eyes to vintage material - in no way am i saying every auction is bad - but there's enough that are

[barrysloate]

A major part of the problem with retail today is prices are not realistic. Collectors often travel to shows only to find prices double what they feel they should be. They can almost always get a better deal bidding in an auction. And I would guess that the typical commission an auction house makes is in the range of 12-19%. I don't think too many could get away with charging 30% total commissions.

But I do agree that there are many auctions out there today, and for some collectors it's hard to keep up.

[Jay Wolt]

As a buyer & seller, I like the auction houses both big & small
as well as the standardized eBay w/ the fixed prices & occasional
auction as well as a good old fashioned show.

As a buyer & a seller, its great to have options.
The economy has more to do w/ the erratic market then any sale venue
for the cards. As I've seen low & high prices at auction houses, eBay
and at shows.