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#1
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Romeo
What is everyone's thoughts on these 2 Mantle auto's |
#2
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Dave Haas
Top one real, bottom one fake. |
#3
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: peter ullman
I'm no expert...but I have a few genuine mantle sigs...and they look ok to me. |
#4
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: barrysloate
I agree with Dave- top one looks good, bottom one both sigs look bad. |
#5
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
I have nothing to do with auto's but they both look suspect, especially the top one, unless Mantle was in his ending days, you can see that it was written slowly, especially the last half of Mantle, which would sugest someone is trying hard to make it look correct. The top is not natural flowing at all and the bottom seems crammed. Just my unexpert opionion. |
#6
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: john
no and no |
#7
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: RangerGiant
The first one is definately bad. One of the the 4 or 5 different common Mantle fakes that you see. Actually this particular card shows up with this fake often. |
#8
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Fred Y
Top Mantle good--Joe & Mantle bad! |
#9
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Eric
i agree with ranger... |
#10
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Jimmy
the top one is a real nice autograph, the bottom one has some?marks and agree with others that it just does not look good |
#11
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Mark L
So, is that a consensus, then? |
#12
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: barrysloate
There is no consensus- everyone disagrees. |
#13
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Jason
They both look suspect to me. The top one is shaky and the M's on the bottom one look odd to me. |
#14
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Jimmy
you really have to go to JSA or PSA, we can only give your our opinions |
#15
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: RangerGiant
Trust me. The top one is bad. Bet the farm kinda sure. Bottom one I am 90% sure it is good, would need to see in person. |
#16
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
JSA or PSA is just another opinion with a little more authority and something to encase it in. They have no proof, no one does, unless you witness the auto or trust the person who says they saw it signed it's just an educated guess. Maybe Mantle needed a drink and had the shakes, maybe he was in a rush and was sloppy, maybe someone did a poor fake. This is why I don't and will never collect autographs, it's all speculation. |
#17
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Dave Haas
I haven't seen any of Mantle's autos where the capital M's connect with the "i" or "a". He draws the "M" seperately and then stars new with the i's and a's. |
#18
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: shelly jaffe
Same items different thread. Both stink. They are authenticated by global and have been selling both on ebay and cc. |
#19
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: David Atkatz
"you really have to go to JSA or PSA, we can only give you our opinions" |
#20
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Not sure how anyone can ever know without getting it in person or having rock solid provenance. COA's are just opinions. On guys like Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams I just assume they're all fake. |
#21
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
David, atleast SGC seems to take the time to look at both sides of a card and tilt it in the light. If PSA can barely tell the difference between a 5 or an 8 I sure would hate to think they can tell if an auto is real or fake. Yes trimmed and altered cards do get by them sometimes but atleast the card is real, even a fake gets through once or twice but not very often. I don't think I could print up some cards and get them past a grader as real but I would bet big money I could forge a lot of autos and get them to pass and that is not good. |
#22
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: David Atkatz
Forge a vintage autograph, Johnny--a Ruth, a Gehrig, a Walter Johnson--and see if you can get it past Jodi Birkholm. |
#23
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
David that is quite a challenge, but with some 75 year old ink and paper it could probably be done. The source of the auto would need to match the age it was from, or atleast that would be my thinking, that would be very tough but not impossible. It might have to sit in the sun for awhile to fade out. Whatever the DNA tests used they would match up to age, if they even use that. If I come accross an old baseball maybe I'll give it a shot !!!!! No disrespect to any authenticators out there, but any system can be beat, even the toughest as you just mentioned. |
#24
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Jodi Birkholm
We authenticators do get hung up on mitochondrial DNA every now and then, but this is a problem we're hoping to correct by 2010. Hopefully, these technological advancements will get us one step closer to making this an exact science. |
#25
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: shelly jaffe
You do not have to send this to Jodie or Psa/ . The items that you showed are not authentic. I will bet anyone on this site $1000 that they are garbage. It does not take an expert to see garbage. Jodie,Psa, Jsa, will not take the bet. |
#26
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Eric B
I would love to see someone take the challenge. The paper part is easy - just pick up any old magazine from the 1920's or 1930's. Even National Geographic will do. Then find an old pen and rehydrate the ink I suppose. Then pick a player. |
#27
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: David Atkatz
And watch the ink feather. |
#28
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Fred C
First one YES, the second one NO.... wait, maybe the second one is YES but then again the first one could be a NO. Oh crap, I think the only thing to do is send them to Jim Spence. Jim has the most trusted dart board in the industry. Seriously, I'm not sure how anybody could deem either one of those REAL or FAKE without being there to witness the signature being written. Some probably think the second one is fake because it looks like the Joe D and Mantle sigs are with the same pen. I have a few signatures that people say are fake but I got the sigs in person. I have sold a lot of my personally obtained autographs but I can definitely recall some of the signatures from the same player being a little different. Maybe the player was in a hurry one day, maybe he was holding his glove under an arm pit while he signed one card and his hand/arm was free when he signed another. Too many variables. That's why I only purchase signatures on checks, contracts or documents these days. Even then you can't be 100% certain it isn't a secretarial signature. |
#29
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
We probably shouldn't be encouraging anyone to become a forger, or even try to pass the test,especially in this economy. But even if one didn't pass the test, how tough would it be to just forge the COA. I'm sure that all the authenticators do their best and really know what they are doing, and sometimes mistakes happen as we are all human. There just seems to be to many loop holes that they have no control over. |
#30
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Richard Simon
"Whatever the DNA tests used they would match up to age," |
#31
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Sorry to barge in on someone else's request but I was hoping you might give me your opinions on 4 11*14's I have in my collection. Below are scans of all of the signatures. Thanks! |
#32
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
Nice photos Jon, if you saw Mickey sign those they are real, if not it's anybodys guess. |
#33
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: David Atkatz
You might hope that, Johnny. |
#34
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
Thanks for the info David, shows what I know. But using DNA as a fancy title seems a little misleading IMO. I thought maybe they had some dye or fancy lights, something hi tech right out of Star Trek or the FBI labs. |
#35
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Richard Simon
there is a process whereby ink can be dated to some degree. However it is expensive for an amateur to have it done and does need the actual ink on the item to be scraped off. |
#36
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: john
Conducting ink analysis on an item is available. The tops in the country is Dr. Al Lyter. He's based in Raleigh, N.C. You're looking at a minimum of 1500 for starters. The specific ink can be identified and with ball point ink, the specific year can be identified (if post 1971). He can tell you if the ink was produced commercially and by what manufacturer and what era. He's pretty amazing. If the ink is early, let's say pre 1900, chances are its not a commercial ink. He then can tell you if the ink is carbon based, iron based, etc. There is an additional test where he determines if the ink has been placed on the item in the last 10 years. The process is costly and can be time consuming(he usually is 6-8 weeks out for new work). If you're analyzing a high value item, the process is worth it and then some. Google his name, you'll find his site and many news stories on his work. The ink doesn't have to be "scraped off" as Richard stated. It can be removed with a small guage needle, puncturing the item at the end of the signature, maybe where the "t" crosses. He usually can get the ink sample where you'd never notice |
#37
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: David Atkatz
I quote from Lyter's webpage: |
#38
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: john
David-i have used his services and have never noticed where the sample came from. In no way has 15% been removed. probably his legal disclaimer to CYA. He passes no opinion on autographs. I'll tell you some specific examples of how his testing helped me: |
#39
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Richard Simon
About 16-18 years ago a small group of collector/dealers who were battling a well known forger named Ron Dross had ink analysis done on some of his work. |
#40
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: David Atkatz
I stand corrected, John. You certainly got your money's worth in the cases you mention. |
#41
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Fred C
Ok, this isn't really breaking my new years resolution because it applies to PSAs "card grading", not autograph authentication... |
#42
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: JohnnyH
Fred you are hillarious, great stuff !! John, Richard, and David great imput. I think it would be a good investment for JSA and PSA to get someone on board or contract out someone for ink dating, atleast on the rare and high volume items. Then the DNA could actually apply. |
#43
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Andrew S.
I am a forensic chemist and I can tell you from experience that there is no way to pin ink down to an exact year. I've seen court cases where multiple ink examiners not only disagreed on the year a document was written or signed....they couldn't even agree on the decade. It is an imprecise undertaking and akin to using a divining rod. If you use two different laboratories, they will usually come up with two very different results/opinions. But there is money to be made, just like with any other third party enterprise and so...... |
#44
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Dan Koteles
top bad - bottom good |
#45
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Richard Simon
Andrew - that is very interesting information. I was always under the assumption that this type of science was accurate. |
#46
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: leon
Forensic science sounds a little like autograph authentication, doesn't it? |
#47
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: barrysloate
I think I would like to take a course in forensic science, with a speciality in bite marks. |
#48
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Richard Simon
Barry, your Dracula personna has emerged . |
#49
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Richard Simon
Leon - the Natl. Academy did mention handwriting in their report... |
#50
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Thoughts on These Mantle Autographs
Posted By: Jack
Richard - As you are one of the experts in this area, I am interested in your opinion on these Mantle autos. What do you think? |
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