O/T The concept of a non-sports "rookie card"

[wdmullins]

Elijah Wood's first card (one of the two kids playing the video game).

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Found a major grail. Cost me next to nothing. 1952 promo card of Hank Williams, his only "card" issued during his lifetime to the best of my knowledge.

Looks like a card to me. Congrats.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks Adam. The only other vintage Hank card I know of is this (criminally undergraded, it's pristine) 1965 Heather Country Music, but it's long long after his death.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1930s postcard of a very young John Wayne

[Leon]

This was moved from another section so a few more eyes can see it. Neat cards shown that a lot of us can relate to whether we collect non-sports or not.
.

[Snowman]

I've been told that my 1899 Stollwerck Leonardo Da Vinci is his "Rookie Card" lol. Feels like a good excuse to post a picture of it.

[h2oya311]

I think the term “rookie” has honestly just supplanted the word “earliest” for all facets of card collecting. I’m fine with it. And I’ve started to dabble in the non-sports “rookie” collecting thing as well, but am way behind Peter with respect to this niche and am not as stringent with the “rules”.

As for Michel Jackson, wouldn’t his 1969 Victoria Vedetten Parade pre-date the 1972 issue from the first post??

[Peter_Spaeth]

That Jackson is from 1973. Victoria Vedetten Parade were issued in four series from 1965 to 1973 and PSA just ignores that and calls them all 1969 which has led to people mislabeling them. This is from the last series. I have this on good authority from the world's leading music card collector and from people in Europe.

[oldjudge]

I have started a collection of non-sport prookies. I have a feeling it will be quite small.

[Snapolit1]

I think the term “rookie”’ is absurd in this context.

Hypothetically a guy performs on stage or screen for a dozen years and then ends for the first time on a card or similar item …. That ain’t a rookie anything. It’s a first something.

If Joe Biden or Willie Nelson ended up on a card this year for the first time, would someone with a straight face claim that as a “rookie” something?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think the term “rookie”’ is absurd in this context.

Hypothetically a guy performs on stage or screen for a dozen years and then ends for the first time on a card or similar item …. That ain’t a rookie anything. It’s a first something.

Exactly. This term is infuriating when applied to non-athletes who don't have rookie seasons. It's used in an attempt to drive up hype and inflate prices by introducing such cards to sports-based collectors as "RCs".

Of course, this will lead to somebody asking how this then applies to executives and other non-playing personnel who may have cards issued as part of sports sets. To me, that's a bit of a grey area, but hey, they are involved in the sport in some way.

I'm thinking that perhaps The Simpsons came up with this idea over 30 years ago. "A Methuselah rookie card!"

For musicians, should their RC have to be released around the same time as their debut album or first hit? Should I have to pay a premium for a A Taste of Honey card that was issued pre-Boogie Oogie Oogie?

Now, steer me to the Captain and Tenille RCs and Dion DiMucci superrefractors!

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Love the facsimile autograph in modern script.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Don't people call 50-51 Toleteros Josh Gibson (issued after he died) his rookie card? There are certainly a number of first football cards issued years after the player's rookie season that are commonly called RCs.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don't people call 50-51 Toleteros Josh Gibson (issued after he died) his rookie card? There are certainly a number of first football cards issued years after the player's rookie season that are commonly called RCs.

This has never made any sense to me. Post-war vintage football is replete with "rookies" of long-time veterans. HOFer Frank Gatski's "rookie card" is a 1955 Bowman, his last year as a professional, as just one example (the 1946 Sears isn't a rookie because reasons). 1955 Topps All-American, 1952 Bowman, and 1948 Leaf cards that feature college players can be rookies, even posthumously, but the 1951 Topps Magic's are not. The inconsistent rules, the small set sizes, football rookies are more of a mess than baseball.

It seems to me some players just don't have a rookie card.

"First card" makes more sense to me to use for these things. The silliest is the fictional character rookies. I collect (i.e. hoard) the 1977 Topps Star Wars, or at least I used to do when I could buy bulk for a dime a pop. Ever since the 2020 increases, the younger crowd has been hyping "Luke Skywalker RC" and "Boba Fett RC" in the 1980 set in the Discord groups. Seems kind of silly to me. I suppose every single card in the 1977 set is a "first card/rookie" of whatever is featured.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Let's not forget about the ridiculous concept of some Laughlin cards being considered RCs. Forget about later career or post-career! Some of these were issued post-mortem! Your "rookie" had already been six feet under for 30-40 years. One player, Bill Monroe, died in 1915! That's 59 years before the card was issued. Sorry, that's not a RC for my taste. "First card" fits the bill.

But back on topic, there certainly are a lot of gorgeous music and non-sports cards out there. I may not agree with the RC designation, but completely understand the appeal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

This has never made any sense to me. Post-war vintage football is replete with "rookies" of long-time veterans. HOFer Frank Gatski's "rookie card" is a 1955 Bowman, his last year as a professional, as just one example (the 1946 Sears isn't a rookie because reasons). 1955 Topps All-American, 1952 Bowman, and 1948 Leaf cards that feature college players can be rookies, even posthumously, but the 1951 Topps Magic's are not. The inconsistent rules, the small set sizes, football rookies are more of a mess than baseball.

It seems to me some players just don't have a rookie card.

"First card" makes more sense to me to use for these things. The silliest is the fictional character rookies. I collect (i.e. hoard) the 1977 Topps Star Wars, or at least I used to do when I could buy bulk for a dime a pop. Ever since the 2020 increases, the younger crowd has been hyping "Luke Skywalker RC" and "Boba Fett RC" in the 1980 set in the Discord groups. Seems kind of silly to me. I suppose every single card in the 1977 set is a "first card/rookie" of whatever is featured.

Basketball too given the huge gaps in production prior to 1969. 1948, 1957, 1961 so lots of "RCs" of players 5, 6 years into their careers.

[frankbmd]

When one refers to a Rookie Card, is not the adjective rookie linked to the word card itself rather than the subject of the card. If you agree then all "first" cards are equivalent to "rookie" cards. Haven't we got enough to quibble about instead of this?

Frank "still waiting for my rookie card" Burkett

[Peter_Spaeth]

It seems in sports, all players must have a rookie card, so that would accord with what Frank is saying.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

When one refers to a Rookie Card, is not the adjective rookie linked to the word card itself rather than the subject of the card. If you agree then all "first" cards are equivalent to "rookie" cards. Haven't we got enough to quibble about instead of this?

Frank "still waiting for my rookie card" Burkett

People have really scraped the bottom of the barrel of possible things to complain about when they get triggered over the use of 'rookie card' with regards to non-sports personalities, and h2oya311 put it perfectly when he said (paraphrase alert) it was just a general way to say 'first' card.

Frank, if you send me a pic, I will gladly plug you in to a 1972 Topps 'In Action' card that you can then call your rookie (meaning FIRST) card. The only proviso is you actually have to be doing something active in the photograph (any activity under the sun counts)...which seems to be getting tougher for many of us these days.

[Snapolit1]

Mao’s rookie card?

https://goldin.co/item/mao-zedong-si...t-bookletjglht

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Mao’s rookie card?

https://goldin.co/item/mao-zedong-si...t-bookletjglht

He is in 1951 Bowman Red Menace lol.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He is in 1951 Bowman Red Menace lol.

Ha. Good one sir.

[G1911]

Not "one of the rarest and most coveted" items nor "an enticing investment opportunity" for Goldin's clientele of elite collectors of genocidal dictators, but the Red Menace card offers striking artwork of what appears to be the Wicked Witch of the far east and a sword wielding executioner ape.

[GasHouseGang]

This should be on the list for the "clientele of elite collectors of genocidal dictators". I'm not sure if it's actually his "rookie" card or not.

[G1911]

I have a few Stalin postcards from the soviet era in a box around here somewhere but I have no idea if the last one of the trio has a 'rookie card'.

Alexander's rookie would be a CDV of a statue probably but this T68 is the nicest old card of another one of history's great villains of violence and mass murder. Would have been cool if his teacher got into the checklist instead.

[GasHouseGang]

I'm only guessing if these are the earliest examples for these two. 1955 James Dean.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dean yes, Heston no, this is 1954. I had one of those Deans, sold it, regretted it, and can not find another lol.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dean yes, Heston no, this is 1954. I had one of those Deans, sold it, regretted it, and can not find another lol.

I think I bought it from you!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I think I bought it from you!

LOL could be.

[GasHouseGang]

I would guess these are all pretty close to the first appearance for all of these folks in 1888.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an aside, what's to be done when a nonsports figure just has no contemporary cards? Photo, for me.

[Exhibitman]

No wonder Taupin stayed behind the scenes

[Peter_Spaeth]

Back to cards. 1962 Eastwood. 1984 Arnold.

[GasHouseGang]

Early Rolling Stones. Dutch, listed as 1965-1967, so not sure if there is something earlier.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1965. They may have earlier postcards.

[Fuddjcal]

only 850 songs in the songbook, and not 1 hard to listen to. One of the Best selling Artists of all time... Here's his solo "Rookie card" without the "Heartbreakers"

[Peter_Spaeth]

1977 Monty Punk also has first cards of Blondie and Elvis Costello.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Punk, New Wave and "Tompetty" are three very different things.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Punk, New Wave and "Tom Petty" are three very different things.

Isn't that funny. That's the Genre they tried to box him in at the beginning.

I think this 1977 Monte Gum Punk set also has "Kiss" rookie cards as well?

[Jay Wolt]

Was John Wayne in anything earlier then these arcade cards?

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/39290646602...Bk9SR4LO8-qRZA

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.ebay.com/itm/39290646602...Bk9SR4LO8-qRZA

Holy Cow! 1932

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Isn't that funny. That's the Genre they tried to box him in at the beginning.

I had never heard that. There's nothing more "American Rock & Roll" than Tom Petty. That's his category.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I had never heard that. There's nothing more "American Rock & Roll" than Tom Petty. That's his category.

https://www.thepettyarchives.com/arc...02-newwaverock

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Thanks for that. Interesting.

If he had just debuted a few years earlier, he wouldn't have had to put up with their need to pigeonhole him. He would have been right alongside Springsteen, obviously not as another "second coming of Dylan", but just in the unabashedly American R&R vibe of their compositions. Two different sounds, but the spirit is the same and both are quintessential R&R. That's it. Just plain ol' rock & roll. If more proof was ever needed by the industry that he was just a rock & roller, all they had to do was wait a couple of years to see how, of all the younger generation of musicians of the era, Petty seemed to be so quickly and warmly embraced by the old guard. Not normally so easy an accomplishment. The old guys dug him, on both sides of the pond.

(I write this not even from the vantage point of being a Petty fan.)

In that late 1970's era, I suppose an artist just wasn't allowed to be "rock & roll". Everybody had to have a label/category attached to them.

[obcbeatle]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Thanks for that. Interesting.

If he had just debuted a few years earlier, he wouldn't have had to put up with their need to pigeonhole him. He would have been right alongside Springsteen, obviously not as another "second coming of Dylan", but just in the unabashedly American R&R vibe of their compositions. Two different sounds, but the spirit is the same and both are quintessential R&R. That's it. Just plain ol' rock & roll. If more proof was ever needed by the industry that he was just a rock & roller, all they had to do was wait a couple of years to see how, of all the younger generation of musicians of the era, Petty seemed to be so quickly and warmly embraced by the old guard. Not normally so easy an accomplishment. The old guys dug him, on both sides of the pond.

(I write this not even from the vantage point of being a Petty fan.)

In that late 1970's era, I suppose an artist just wasn't allowed to be "rock & roll". Everybody had to have a label/category attached to them.

As a retired performing musician/guitarist...amongst other musicians, 1st and foremost, Tom Petty was a great song writer. There are truly very few song writers on the planet (ever) that can/could write great songs by themselves. The great songs are usually collaborative efforts. Most musicians are very jealous of the great song writers But they still love the music! I suppose though when it comes to music, beauty is in the ear of the beholder. So I digress I love this thread, great cards!!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

As a retired performing musician/guitarist...amongst other musicians, 1st and foremost, Tom Petty was a great song writer. There are truly very few song writers on the planet (ever) that can/could write great songs by themselves. The great songs are usually collaborative efforts. Most musicians are very jealous of the great song writers But they still love the music! I suppose though when it comes to music, beauty is in the ear of the beholder. So I digress I love this thread, great cards!!

Me too. I love the cards on this thread And I especially love the articulate retrospects from the Net54ers. Much better than the "Stolen" threads.

[Shankweather]

I collect fictional character rookie cards and I love it. We should definitely call them rookie cards, because the term has taken a life of its own independent of being a rookie in a sport. Sometimes it's difficult figuring out what card is really the rookie card. Is it enough that they appear on the card, or do they need to be the main subject of the card?

What is Godzilla's rookie card? Is it one of these from the 1965 Donruss King Kong set?



Is it this 1994 Trendmasters that came in an action figure package?



1995 Amada Godzilla was the first pack-pulled set dedicated to Goji. Is card #1 the rookie card?



Or is it #34 because it's the first one that says "Godzilla" on the front?



Is there room for XRCs in non-sports cards? If PSA won't grade it can it count as a rookie card? These are the questions that keep me up at night.

[D. Bergin]

LOL, big fan of the "What type of skin cream do you use?" card.

[Cozumeleno]

I, too, prefer the First Card designation, as others have said. It's a little tricky in many instances compared to the rookie card designation, though.

Many players have more than one rookie card, which is accepted. They're all simply known as rookies. But 'first card' infers that it's an individual's very first card -- even if that technically isn't the case. And many non-sports subjects have more than one card debuting in the same year (i.e. Queen/Princess Elizabeth, who has a few from 1935).

I'll leave it up to the pros to figure it all out. In the meantime, here's a card of Beethoven. Given the abundance of cabinets, CDVs, and what defines a card, I'm not bold enough to call it his first. So let's just say 'early.'