How are the deceased still signing?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

On the other hand, maybe some of these sellers have come to their senses and are looking to get those monstrosities out of their collections asap

Lance - you use the right word when you say seller but you also use the word collections and I think the right word there might be accumulations.
I don't think anyone collects these things the same way the members of this board collect autographs. They accumulate them hoping that the greater fool theory is still alive and well when they decide the time has come to sell.
As we all know the members of this board collect autographs for an entirely different reason.

[travrosty]

people see 1 of 1 and they get crazy, a false scarcity, and i have had a heck of a time convincing people that these cuts exist outside of these cards too and don't cost but 1/10 of what they are offering them for.

they say in return "yeah, but those cuts arent in a 1 of 1 card like this, it's topps, it's upper deck."

I say back to them "so what?"

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

people see 1 of 1 and they get crazy, a false scarcity, and i have had a heck of a time convincing people that these cuts exist outside of these cards too and don't cost but 1/10 of what they are offering them for.

they say in return "yeah, but those cuts arent in a 1 of 1 card like this, it's topps, it's upper deck."

I say back to them "so what?"

But do you collect baseball cards, too? Or at least understand why people do?

I can find a photo of Mickey Mantle in 1952 and write a nice bio and some stats on the back. But for some reason, people pay crazy amounts for the same thing made by Topps. Mine is scarcer, too!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

But do you collect baseball cards, too? Or at least understand why people do?

I can find a photo of Mickey Mantle in 1952 and write a nice bio and some stats on the back. But for some reason, people pay crazy amounts for the same thing made by Topps. Mine is scarcer, too!

It is the artificially created shortages that is the thing that is just plain stupid.
The shortages at first were created by the card companies complete with forgeries and badly cut autographs, now you can create your own ridiculous artificial shortage with any cut autograph and a technicolor plastic tomb.
"Wow, it is 1/1 with a technicolor plastic tomb",,, "wow, I just got to have that plastic tomb with the 1/1 Bob Feller, it will always be worth more than I paid."
Someone putting a plastic technicolor tomb around an autograph, IMHO, is not creating a baseball card.
That someone has fallen for the Leaf hype and is a gambler, not a serious collector of autographs or cards.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

It is the artificially created shortages that is the thing that is just plain stupid.
The shortages at first were created by the card companies complete with forgeries and badly cut autographs, now you can create your own ridiculous artificial shortage with any cut autograph and a technicolor plastic tomb.
"Wow, it is 1/1 with a technicolor plastic tomb",,, "wow, I just got to have that plastic tomb with the 1/1 Bob Feller, it will always be worth more than I paid."
Someone putting a plastic technicolor tomb around an autograph, IMHO, is not creating a baseball card.
That someone has fallen for the Leaf hype and is a gambler, not a serious collector of autographs or cards.

We are in total agreement about what Leaf is doing, and we agree that many of these cuts are ugly, forgeries, and/or a shameful enterprise (when cutting up a letter or contract for the sig alone).

However, when a company does it right, these can be aesthetically pleasing, which does add value for many of us.

Case in point, I think I paid 32 buck for this Ted Lyons card for my HOF auto collection. That is more than a simple 3x5 would run me, but I like the photo, the registered White Sox trademark, and the overall layout. I don't really care about the numbering either way, but there may be some out there collecting the set. Who knows.

[RichardSimon]

Well, if you bought the 3x5 of Lyons from me it would be less than $32 , but in cases like this one I can see it from your point of view, though I still don't like it. It is just the lunacy of the 1/1 or the 1/(small number) which drives prices to ridiculous levels that totally irritates me.
Not only do they cut up letters and contracts, I have seen photos that have been cut for the signature.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Well, if you bought the 3x5 of Lyons from me it would be less than $32 , but in cases like this one I can see it from your point of view, though I still don't like it. It is just the lunacy of the 1/1 or the 1/(small number) which drives prices to ridiculous levels that totally irritates me.
Not only do they cut up letters and contracts, I have seen photos that have been cut for the signature.

Like mentioned above Richard, some people ONLY like collecting "cards". That's why they like the Cut signature cards made by Upper Deck or these "create your own cut signature card" by Leaf. People like that these cards are small and can easily be looked at when lying on the couch watching TV (for an example). Some people like the slabs that these Leaf cuts come in because they offer protection. I have a friend who loves collecting autographs but he doesn't care for 8x10's, Baseballs, Bats, Hockey pucks, letters etc., he likes to only collect autographs on cards, whether they are on card autographs or cut signature cards. He likes that his collection is uniformed in size and doesn't take up much space. He also likes to take a few of his autographs to work to look at or show off when he gets a break or is slow at work, he wouldn't be able to do this with Bats, 8x10s, letters etc.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

But do you collect baseball cards, too? Or at least understand why people do?

I can find a photo of Mickey Mantle in 1952 and write a nice bio and some stats on the back. But for some reason, people pay crazy amounts for the same thing made by Topps. Mine is scarcer, too!

because autographs arent the same as baseball cards, the autograph wasnt made by you or me, it was made by the athlete. putting it in a little card holder and adding 10X the value, why?

it's stupid.

its not a leaf autograph, or a roste autograph, its an autograph of mickey mantle.


its the pricing that is crazy and the way they mangle the autographs. the will cut an autograph from a photo or check, and put it in a holder, then charge more than what the signed photo or check was worth. way more too.

if the lyons was 300 dollars, would you buy it? 5 dollar autographs like the cut max schmeling routinely get listed for 300. ridiculous and insulting.


if someone likes collecting, small portable autographs, they can collect index cards or cut autograph on paper. why pay 2500 dollars or more for a rocky marciano upper deck 1 of 1, when a cut or index card of marciano can be had for 400 dollars?

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by travrosty

if someone likes collecting, small portable autographs, they can collect index cards or cut autograph on paper. why pay 2500 dollars or more for a rocky marciano upper deck 1 of 1, when a cut or index card of marciano can be had for 400 dollars?

People also like how the autograph is presented. Instead of just having a white index card, they like how the cut signature card has a picture of the player and the team logo. This is were the value comes from between a blank index card and a cut signature card. Topps pays the players association, the league and if the player is deceased, his estate, millions of dollars to use that players likeness and the teams logo on the card, that is where a lot of the value comes from in these cut signature cards.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

People also like how the autograph is presented. Instead of just having a white index card, they like how the cut signature card has a picture of the player and the team logo. This is were the value comes from between a blank index card and a cut signature card. Topps pays the players association, the league and if the player is deceased, his estate, millions of dollars to use that players likeness and the teams logo on the card, that is where a lot of the value comes from in these cut signature cards.

I hesitate to call it value Bilko. A vintage autograph has a certain value determined by supply and demand.
A vintage autograph on one of these "things" has a price on it based on speculation and the hope of the current owner that the greater fool theory will hold for a few more days/weeks/months until he decides to sell it. Though he may not be aware of Tulip Mania he is also, probably subconsciously, hoping that the world does not sober up in time so that he is the last one left holding the bag with that "thing" in it.
And obviously though it is a matter of taste collectors, not speculators, usually prefer making their own display for a vintage autograph.
For thirty bucks if you like the way that Lyons looks that is great. But when you get into high dollar amounts I really don't believe that people are spending that kind of money for anything other than speculation.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I hesitate to call it value Bilko. A vintage autograph has a certain value determined by supply and demand.
A vintage autograph on one of these "things" has a price on it based on speculation and the hope of the current owner that the greater fool theory will hold for a few more days/weeks/months until he decides to sell it. Though he may not be aware of Tulip Mania he is also, probably subconsciously, hoping that the world does not sober up in time so that he is the last one left holding the bag with that "thing" in it.
And obviously though it is a matter of taste collectors, not speculators, usually prefer making their own display for a vintage autograph.
For thirty bucks if you like the way that Lyons looks that is great. But when you get into high dollar amounts I really don't believe that people are spending that kind of money for anything other than speculation.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. What Travis is arguing about the companies presenting something and your argument about tuilp mania are arguments against collecting autos and cards IN GENERAL. None of the things discussed on these boards have any intrinsic value. It is all supply and demand, and the demand is there for autos presented by a retailer. Hence, they are supplying it. When and if the buyers of those realize that there are no "greater fools" to flp to, they may than realize and believe that any scribbles on a paper are worthless in general. And when they do, the proverbial dominoes may fall, all of our scribbles may become worthless.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

because autographs arent the same as baseball cards, the autograph wasnt made by you or me, it was made by the athlete. putting it in a little card holder and adding 10X the value, why?

it's stupid.

its not a leaf autograph, or a roste autograph, its an autograph of mickey mantle.


its the pricing that is crazy and the way they mangle the autographs. the will cut an autograph from a photo or check, and put it in a holder, then charge more than what the signed photo or check was worth. way more too.

if the lyons was 300 dollars, would you buy it? 5 dollar autographs like the cut max schmeling routinely get listed for 300. ridiculous and insulting.


if someone likes collecting, small portable autographs, they can collect index cards or cut autograph on paper. why pay 2500 dollars or more for a rocky marciano upper deck 1 of 1, when a cut or index card of marciano can be had for 400 dollars?

You didnt answer my question. Do you collect baseball cards?

If you only collects autos, then I can see your point of view (which is not the same as agreeing with it).