Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Nowadays when someone opens a pack, and there's a dinged card, they can send it back and have the company make them a new one.

That's not a pack pulled card anymore. It's manufactured to be in mint condition.

I do believe future generations of collectors will be OK with trimming, cleaning, color touch, etc. At the rate we're at, they really have no other choice.

This is false. The manufacturer will send you a card that is deemed of equal value, but they don't reprint the card.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

This is false. The manufacturer will send you a card that is deemed of equal value, but they don't reprint the card.

Eh, you can call it more of a half truth. It is their general policy that if they do replace a damaged card they replace it with something in their stock they consider equal book value, but Topps has before on rare occasions reprinted or recreated damaged cards if the card is high profile enough or if the comp value is high enough to require more than a handful of cards to reach. This is my understanding at least.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Eh, you can call it more of a half truth. It is their general policy that if they do replace a damaged card they replace it with something in their stock they consider equal book value, but Topps has before on rare occasions reprinted or recreated damaged cards if the card is high profile enough or if the comp value is high enough to require more than a handful of cards to reach. This is my understanding at least.

Of the billions of cards Topps & Panini have produced over the years a small handful have been remade, but only under very extreme circumstances.

I just didn't want people thinking you could send any pack-pulled, damaged card to these companies and they will print you a new one. That just doesn't happen.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

have been remade.

Correct.

[sayheykid54]

Are there any recent updates to these lawsuits?

[swarmee]

It was elevated to Federal District Court in California right at the start of the Coronavirus situation, requested by PSA I believe. No mention of it at all on the PSA quarterly shareholders meeting, from what I've been told. Hopefully they put it in their notes, despite Joe's claim that these scandals "are not material to their business."

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

any update on this?

[swarmee]

Savoy's case was stopped by the judge, mainly because he couldn't show he had any damages as a result of the scandal. Read the last couple of pages here:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1352880

[conor912]

Hahaha. I love it. Everyone’s making money so it’s a victimless crime. You can’t make this shit up.

[Johnny630]

Sadly the beat goes on in this industry, Nothing really changes, consequences haha what is that!. This country has way more to worry about than this. Look at all the victims of the past recent month in thus country that have been told oh that’s what you have insurance. Sadly I think this story has went to the Back burner of disappearance.

[drcy]

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

I couldn’t have said it better.

[HRBAKER]

Theatre of the Absurd, cardboard style.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

Perfectly said!!

They're Addicted To Grading.

[swarmee]

The judge wasn't saying that nobody suffered damages, just that the sole plaintiff did not. And so if he didn't lose any money as a result of wrongly graded cards, his case falls apart.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The judge wasn't saying that nobody suffered damages, just that the sole plaintiff did not. And so if he didn't lose any money as a result of wrongly graded cards, his case falls apart.

I don't know how many of you all are on twitter but following Paul Lesko for any hobby related court issue is a must. Paul did a very nice job explaining the whole case. His twitter handle is @Paul Lesko.

Regards
Rich

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

If we are still doing "Post of the Year" around the end of December, I would nominate this one. Concise, poignant, and right to the point in one brief sentence.

Hopefully the FBI's case turns out to be far more successful than the class-action, and we won't have to see these criminals keep wiggling off the hook.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

If not, you couldn't talk "Pop" or GPA.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

You're assumption that the primary role of grading is to assign judgement as to altered or unaltered.

I would argue the primary role is authenticity of item, and secondarily should be to give an assessment of condition so that it may be valued by pursuing collectors against other existing copies.

Alteration is even more subjective in my opinion than condition.
Who's to say a car has complete original running gear when certain parts are unnumbered?
What exactly is 'original' patina on 18th century furniture?
Those cards you like to collect, are you so sure none that conform to an assessment of unaltered were'nt in fact changed by early owners but in ways that the years have hidden? Even when passed around a group of well regarded hobbyists you'd get different assessments between them.

To me it's a bit silly to have canniptions over the 'dark arts' of todays bad actors in the business.

Grading should simply confer on opinion of Authentic for the issue, or reprint.
Subsequent to that all judgement should be left to the buyer as to judging condition based on eye appeal, whether the card measures correctly for the issue, does it have wear such as wrinkles/rubs etc, and any other valued criteria.
Those assessments could be included in a report on any slabbed card, and the buyer then weights them according to his preference and pays to that measure.

Simples.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

You're assumption that the primary role of grading is to assign judgement as to altered or unaltered.

I would argue the primary role is authenticity of item, and secondarily should be to give an assessment of condition so that it may be valued by pursuing collectors against other existing copies.

Alteration is even more subjective in my opinion than condition.
Who's to say a car has complete original running gear when certain parts are unnumbered?
What exactly is 'original' patina on 18th century furniture?
Those cards you like to collect, are you so sure none that conform to an assessment of unaltered were'nt in fact changed by early owners but in ways that the years have hidden? Even when passed around a group of well regarded hobbyists you'd get different assessments between them.

To me it's a bit silly to have canniptions over the 'dark arts' of todays bad actors in the business.

Grading should simply confer on opinion of Authentic for the issue, or reprint.
Subsequent to that all judgement should be left to the buyer as to judging condition based on eye appeal, whether the card measures correctly for the issue, does it have wear such as wrinkles/rubs etc, and any other valued criteria.
Those assessments could be included in a report on any slabbed card, and the buyer then weights them according to his preference and pays to that measure.

Simples.

Regardless of the logic here, part of the service being sold is determining if something is altered and, if it is determined to be so, not slabbing it.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by conor912

Regardless of the logic here, part of the service being sold is determining if something is altered and, if it is determined to be so, not slabbing it.

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

Part of the problem is all of the outright and obvious mistakes the TPGs make. Many are laughable and some almost seem like favorable grades for certain submitters. I am sure I can tell a real vs a fake card as well as most graders. I don't use grade much any longer because of it. That said, if it's a higher end card it has to be graded to bring the real value. It's a conundrum.

As to the subject it will be very interesting to see the final outcome of the FBI's efforts. Hopefully some crooked folks go to jail as they did before.

These all have Hand Cut on their SGC flips and none are hand cut. Go figure. They all came out of a pack I still have. Grading is a crapshoot at best. I hope the new company starting up is better than what we have now.



.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

Is that an offer of a bet of $20K that I can't tell if a card is altered?

If the card is in hand....
And what set.

Most of the ones I'm familiar with it's not going to be a problem.

Somehow it is for the Grading companies, which are apparently now hiding their mistakes/incompetence/collusion behind regrading and denial.

[Johnny630]

When Getting Paid for a Opinion How Can Any Opinion Rendered Be Held Accountable ?

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by steve B

Is that an offer of a bet of $20K that I can't tell if a card is altered?

If the card is in hand....
And what set.

Most of the ones I'm familiar with it's not going to be a problem.

Somehow it is for the Grading companies, which are apparently now hiding their mistakes/incompetence/collusion behind regrading and denial.

Soooo, you're confident you could tell me if a 33 Goudey had had a light pencil mark removed in either 39'/69'/99' for the betterment of appearance as opposed to showing wear/rub on an area of the card from certain kinds of handling?
Or if an oversized card had been cut down in 1910 to fit an album, cut down more recently (say mid 80's) to fake either the buyers from catalogs or trade shows or of more recent value - the graders, or just was a vagary of the cutting processes used at the time? You'd put up 20K of your own money on the judgement? What if you're proved wrong the first time, will you put up another 20k and have a second go?
What about a 52 topps that shows a 'thinner' measure on one corner of the card.....is that a corner that has been layed down more recently to better a grade or was it in a screw down a little unequally and one screw tightened a little more heavily than the others?

What about the shiny stuff? Can you tell a card that has been shaved down so minutely with a professional paper cutter it still falls within spec?

Like I said, authentic versus reprint is not too difficult for a seasoned collector.
Alteration that is overwhelming eg chemical residue that shows in black light, bat wing corners etc and many others are quickly identified.

As Leon points out, it's the egregious misses by grading companies that causes the most consternation.
But that bothers me less. Crazy misses will be mostly rectified by the grading companies.....mislabelled flips, missed creases or paper loss, etc.

Hand cut versus factory is not so obvious and it's one of those that hobbyists would argue over. Sure, we could all just take your word Leon on this one (and we'd be right doing so in this instance above) and that's fine, but would you be happy for every submitter to get the same benefit of belief that their word simply confers to the grading outcome?

Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of grading situations.
If you nitpick and think your estimations are so much more accurate than the graders, then welcome to the hobby. Everyone thinks they grade more accurately than their fellow hobbyists.

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If you don't like graded, then buy the card you fall in love with and if it's in a slab take it out and enjoy it that way. Don't bitch and moan and make perfect the enemy of good.
But If you quite enjoy the way a rectangular unscratched clear lucite slab frames a piece of sports cardboard as i do, kind of like a beautiful frame gives painted canvas a mount to speak from, and if you love being able to handle slabs and enjoy the cards without care of doing damage - even tossed into the hands of your 4 year old, and if the fact they are protected from wear so that future generations can enjoy them....
Well, then you enjoy graded cards.
Yes the grades are an unfortunate byplay. It is what it is.
A market can be established with this 1-10 scale so that copies of the same item can have relative value to eachother and can pass confidently between the hands of collectors.

I love the hobby just as it is, and I'd love it slabbed without grades.
The significantly aggrieved who complain should find a different hobby, as it aint going back and it will never reach the levels of perfection in grading you seemingly desire.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Soooo, you're confident you could tell me if a 33 Goudey had had a light pencil mark removed in either 39'/69'/99' for the betterment of appearance as opposed to showing wear/rub on an area of the card from certain kinds of handling?
Or if an oversized card had been cut down in 1910 to fit an album, cut down more recently (say mid 80's) to fake either the buyers from catalogs or trade shows or of more recent value - the graders, or just was a vagary of the cutting processes used at the time? You'd put up 20K of your own money on the judgement? What if you're proved wrong the first time, will you put up another 20k and have a second go?
What about a 52 topps that shows a 'thinner' measure on one corner of the card.....is that a corner that has been layed down more recently to better a grade or was it in a screw down a little unequally and one screw tightened a little more heavily than the others?

What about the shiny stuff? Can you tell a card that has been shaved down so minutely with a professional paper cutter it still falls within spec?

Like I said, authentic versus reprint is not too difficult for a seasoned collector.
Alteration that is overwhelming eg chemical residue that shows in black light, bat wing corners etc and many others are quickly identified.

As Leon points out, it's the egregious misses by grading companies that causes the most consternation.
But that bothers me less. Crazy misses will be mostly rectified by the grading companies.....mislabelled flips, missed creases or paper loss, etc.

Hand cut versus factory is not so obvious and it's one of those that hobbyists would argue over. Sure, we could all just take your word Leon on this one (and we'd be right doing so in this instance above) and that's fine, but would you be happy for every submitter to get the same benefit of belief that their word simply confers to the grading outcome?

Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of grading situations.
If you nitpick and think your estimations are so much more accurate than the graders, then welcome to the hobby. Everyone thinks they grade more accurately than their fellow hobbyists.

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If you don't like graded, then buy the card you fall in love with and if it's in a slab take it out and enjoy it that way. Don't bitch and moan and make perfect the enemy of good.
But If you quite enjoy the way a rectangular unscratched clear lucite slab frames a piece of sports cardboard as i do, kind of like a beautiful frame gives painted canvas a mount to speak from, and if you love being able to handle slabs and enjoy the cards without care of doing damage - even tossed into the hands of your 4 year old, and if the fact they are protected from wear so that future generations can enjoy them....
Well, then you enjoy graded cards.
Yes the grades are an unfortunate byplay. It is what it is.
A market can be established with this 1-10 scale so that copies of the same item can have relative value to eachother and can pass confidently between the hands of collectors.

I love the hobby just as it is, and I'd love it slabbed without grades.
The significantly aggrieved who complain should find a different hobby, as it aint going back and it will never reach the levels of perfection in grading you seemingly desire.

OK then...

[Kenny Cole]

I would suggest there is a middle ground where they: 1) grade accurately, for the most part; and 2) are not beholden to certain submitters, which is clearly the case right now. Grades are subjective. I get that. You can miss a good cheat job by a pro on occasion. But if you portray yourself as the arbiter of the card grade AND as neutral and independent, you should be that. I don't think, and am in fact pretty sure, that isn't even close to reality. Kind of like many other things - if you have the desire and the money, you can corrupt the process.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by perezfan

OK then...

If that scan is correct - and it doesn't look right with both sides looking distorted - do you believe if returned to PSA they wouldn't correct the mistake?

I've owned maybe 7-800 cards over the last 30 years.
I've been selective in creating a collection that reflects my tastes.
I've probably looked at 4-5 million cards on line and in person in that time.
Within my own collection I'd nitpick some of the cards within a half to full grade, but would accept that I was nitpicking and perhaps not fully availed of the information they used as criteria for assigning the grade.
Over the other 5 million, there's probably a few hundred I was shocked with the grade given.
The other 4, 999, 800 fell in to the catagory of - ok, well, I guess that's around the mark.

To me, that's a pass mark.
You could pull up every missed grade card, and then I'd ask you to at the same time include every card seemingly fairly graded that you could find.

The rows of accurately graded cards would stream seemingly endlessly until you hit upon that incorrect one.

Look, it's fine if this is the cross you wish to burn grading on.
I think you're making the evidence fit your hypothesis, as opposed to displaying ALL the evidence and then fairly determining what the failure rate is.

Again, at least five million cards I've looked at over the last 30 years and my impression has much more strongly aligned with the vast majority conforming to my expectations with a tiny minority obviously cock ups.

But, everyone is able to make their own determinations.
I'm just suggesting that you will not undo this made pie, you can either eat it and spit out the annoying pits occasionally left in it, or just don't partake.

Take that PSA9 if you have it in hand (and it really looks like the scan suggests) and put it in a mailer and send it to PSA. I have a feeling they'll make it right so to speak.

If it's corruption you wish to chase down, good luck.
This country is built on it.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

If that scan is correct - and it doesn't look right with both sides looking distorted - do you believe if returned to PSA they wouldn't correct the mistake?

I've owned maybe 5-600 cards over the last 30 years.
I've been selective in creating a collection that reflects my tastes.
I've probably looked at 4-5 million cards on line and in person in that time.
Within my own collection I'd nitpick some of the cards within a half to full grade, but would accept that I was nitpicking and perhaps not fully availed of the information they used as criteria for assigning the grade.
Over the other 5 million, there's probably a few hundred I was shocked with the grade given.
The other 4, 999, 800 fell in to the catagory of - ok, well, I guess that's around the mark.

To me, that's a pass mark.
You could pull up every missed grade card, and then I'd ask you to at the same time include every card seemingly fairly graded that you could find.

The rows of accurately graded cards would stream seemingly endlessly until you hit upon that incorrect one.

Look, it's fine if this is the cross you wish to burn grading on.
I think you're making the evidence fit your hypothesis, as opposed to displaying ALL the evidence and then fairly determining what the failure rate is.

Again, at least five million cards I've looked at over the last 30 years and my impression has much more strongly aligned with the vast majority conforming to my expectations with a tiny minority obviously cock ups.

But, everyone is able to make their own determinations.
I'm just suggesting that you will not undo this made pie, you can either eat it and spit out the annoying pits occasionally left in it, or just don't partake.

Take that PSA9 if you have it in hand (and it really looks like the scan suggests) and put it in a mailer and send it to PSA. I have a feeling they'll make it right so to speak.

If it's corruption you wish to chase down, good luck.
This country is built on it.

But getting it right is what they advertise they can do, what you pay them for, and what they are supposed to do. Period. And, I have looked at a lot of cards too. I guess we looked at different cards because I haven't seen what you say you saw. That's fine. Doesn't matter. As for the corruption statement, I agree, but I probably come from a very different perspective than you do. That's fine too. That's why we have we have a Constitution, freedom of speech, and, hopefully, a democratic process where we all have the right to vote and make a difference.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I would suggest there is a middle ground where they: 1) grade accurately, for the most part; and 2) are not beholden to certain submitters, which is clearly the case right now. Grades are subjective. I get that. You can miss a good cheat job by a pro on occasion. But if you portray yourself as the arbiter of the card grade AND as neutral and independent, you should be that. I don't think, and am in fact pretty sure, that isn't even close to reality. Kind of like many other things - if you have the desire and the money, you can corrupt the process.

A. I don't think they portray themselves as anything other than a business offering a service to give opinion on the condition and authenticity of cards (as well as other things..)
I think all the companies are comfortable with other opinions being different to theirs, and you are not forced to accept their findings.
They give a quick breakdown of what they are looking for and giving a grade to, so that you can see their approx thinking. It is not a final judgement, it is an opinion that enough collectors agree with and value that they will pay money to have given.

B. I agree, money will buy you access, and with access and large amounts of money come the opportunity for corruption.
Show me an industry free from it.

I would say the very clear nature of display of the card in a slab, allowing such good viewing of it's properties, makes it more difficult for wildly innacurate grades to be passed along and not widely questioned.

The problem lies at the high end, whether that's in vintage and high end is nrmt-mt, or modern where it's gem mint. And the differences between those assigned grades can be difficult to see or argue.

So, some have and will continue to find ways to buy their way into rigging the system for their financial benefit. I accept it.
I still believe that if 50-100K people submit to any particular company, the overwhelming majority are getting a normal and honest service. Not EVERYONE is buying their way to a '10'.

The scoundrels should be caught where possible, but it's never going to be a 'clean' industry. No industry that involves the exchange of money is.

So, accept the limitations, help to bring mistakes to center stage, and enjoy these little bits of cardboard.

Or not and just write of your angst on a message board.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

But getting it right is what they advertise they can do, what you pay them for, and what they are supposed to do. Period. And, I have looked at a lot of cards too. I guess we looked at different cards because I haven't seen what you say you saw. That's fine. Doesn't matter. As for the corruption statement, I agree, but I probably come from a very different perspective than you do. That's fine too. That's why we have we have a Constitution, freedom of speech, and, hopefully, a democratic process where we all have the right to vote and make a difference.

I'm not sure I've seen where these grading companies say they are right...?
They are selling opinions, not facts.

I'm with you on what you wrote last, but don't believe in this country any longer.
There are now two sets of facts to explain daily life in America, and being a facts guy this just doesn't compute for me. When my kids are done High School I'm moving somewhere, probably back to Australia.

My cards go with me, so one day there will be an awesome Auction that announces a 'find' in Australia LOL.....bid strong, the cards are all hand picked to be accurately represented and my kids could use the cash.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

A. I don't think they portray themselves as anything other than a business offering a service to give opinion on the condition and authenticity of cards (as well as other things..)
I think all the companies are comfortable with other opinions being different to theirs, and you are not forced to accept their findings.
They give a quick breakdown of what they are looking for and giving a grade to so that you can see their approx thinking. It is not a final judgement, it is an opinion that enough collectors agree with and value that they will pay money to have given.

B. I agree, money will buy you access, and with access and large amounts of money come the opportunity for corruption.
Show me an industry free from it.

I would say the very clear nature of display of the card in a slab, allowing such good viewing of it's properties, makes it more difficult for wildly innacurate grades to be passed along and not widely questioned.

The problem lies at the high end, whether that's in vintage and high end is nrmt-mt, or modern where it's gem mint. And the differences between those assigned grades can be difficult to see or argue.

So, some have and will continue to find ways to buy their way into rigging the system for their financial benefit. I accept it.
I still believe that if 50-100K people submit to any particular company, the overwhelming majority are getting a normal and honest service. Not EVERYONE is buying their way to a '10'.

The scoundrels should be caught where possible, but it's never going to be a 'clean' industry. No industry that involves the exchange of money is.

So, accept the limitations, help to bring mistakes to center stage, and enjoy these little bits of cardboard.

Or not and just write of your angst on a message board.

Fortunately, I don't have too much angst. I have tried to be pretty selective in my choices and have never been too invested in grades. I don't submit enough to have much swack, which, ironically, allows me much more freedom to call it as I see it. Nor do I give a f_ck about what people think about my collection. So I'm good. Right now, that allows me to say that what I see is not what I wish that I would see. In any event, peace.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Fortunately, I don't have too much angst. I have tried to be pretty selective in my choices and have never been too invested in grades. I don't submit enough to have much swack, which, ironically, allows me much more freedom to call it as I see it. Nor do I give a f_ck about what people think about my collection. So I'm good. Right now, that allows me to say that what I see is not what I wish that I would see. In any event, peace.

I hear you.
You represent the aspirational, I've become anaesthetized to chasing it.
Peace right back at you.

Ps. Oh, and PSA sucks!!!
All my pre 1947 in SGC, everything else I'm trying to cross over into Beckett.
Not just that I believe these two companies make fewer egregious mistakes, rather I mostly feel i understand how they get to their opinions on grades better.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I'm not sure I've seen where these grading companies say they are right...?
They are selling opinions, not facts.

I'm with you on what you wrote last, but don't believe in this country any longer.
There are now two sets of facts to explain daily life in America, and being a facts guy this just doesn't compute for me. When my kids are done High School I'm moving somewhere, probably back to Australia.

My cards go with me, so one day there will be an awesome Auction that announces a 'find' in Australia LOL.....bid strong, the cards are all hand picked to be accurately represented and my kids could use the cash.

Where in Australia? My favorite place is Palm Cove in QLD. My wife and I were married at Balmoral Park in North Sydney.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Where in Australia? My favorite place is Palm Cove in QLD. My wife and I were married at Balmoral Park in North Sydney.

Oh mate, Palm Cove is unbeliebably beautiful.....AND HOT.
I'm jealous, that's absolute G_d's country. Too many crocs these days up North so can't take the kids and let them run around, serious problem as these prehistoric monsters swim out to sea and then 16ft of chomp turns up in the shallows of the beach.

I'm a Melbourne boy but love Sydney too.
Probably end up back where I have most family and friends.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Soooo, you're confident you could tell me if a 33 Goudey had had a light pencil mark removed in either 39'/69'/99' for the betterment of appearance as opposed to showing wear/rub on an area of the card from certain kinds of handling?
Or if an oversized card had been cut down in 1910 to fit an album, cut down more recently (say mid 80's) to fake either the buyers from catalogs or trade shows or of more recent value - the graders, or just was a vagary of the cutting processes used at the time? You'd put up 20K of your own money on the judgement? What if you're proved wrong the first time, will you put up another 20k and have a second go?
What about a 52 topps that shows a 'thinner' measure on one corner of the card.....is that a corner that has been layed down more recently to better a grade or was it in a screw down a little unequally and one screw tightened a little more heavily than the others?

What about the shiny stuff? Can you tell a card that has been shaved down so minutely with a professional paper cutter it still falls within spec?

Like I said, authentic versus reprint is not too difficult for a seasoned collector.
Alteration that is overwhelming eg chemical residue that shows in black light, bat wing corners etc and many others are quickly identified.

As Leon points out, it's the egregious misses by grading companies that causes the most consternation.
But that bothers me less. Crazy misses will be mostly rectified by the grading companies.....mislabelled flips, missed creases or paper loss, etc.

Hand cut versus factory is not so obvious and it's one of those that hobbyists would argue over. Sure, we could all just take your word Leon on this one (and we'd be right doing so in this instance above) and that's fine, but would you be happy for every submitter to get the same benefit of belief that their word simply confers to the grading outcome?

Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of grading situations.
If you nitpick and think your estimations are so much more accurate than the graders, then welcome to the hobby. Everyone thinks they grade more accurately than their fellow hobbyists.

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If you don't like graded, then buy the card you fall in love with and if it's in a slab take it out and enjoy it that way. Don't bitch and moan and make perfect the enemy of good.
But If you quite enjoy the way a rectangular unscratched clear lucite slab frames a piece of sports cardboard as i do, kind of like a beautiful frame gives painted canvas a mount to speak from, and if you love being able to handle slabs and enjoy the cards without care of doing damage - even tossed into the hands of your 4 year old, and if the fact they are protected from wear so that future generations can enjoy them....
Well, then you enjoy graded cards.
Yes the grades are an unfortunate byplay. It is what it is.
A market can be established with this 1-10 scale so that copies of the same item can have relative value to eachother and can pass confidently between the hands of collectors.

I love the hobby just as it is, and I'd love it slabbed without grades.
The significantly aggrieved who complain should find a different hobby, as it aint going back and it will never reach the levels of perfection in grading you seemingly desire.

The when and why of an alteration don't matter. That the alteration did happen does.

Old cards, yes, I'm very confident I could spot nearly all alterations.
There are people skilled enough that their work would be very hard to detect. The point would be that PSA has multiple people, some very experienced. They also supposedly have a very nice piece of equipment that can allow viewing the card under various forms of light shown from different angles. Since it costs about 60K I don't have one. Maybe I should ask for theirs, since they don't seem to use it.

It's not about making perfect the enemy of good. It's about a company that calls themselves experts living up to their own claims. And taking responsibility for their mistakes instead of reholdering them with new serial numbers and denying they were wrong even when shown photos of the same card before and after altering. (SGC too. And probably Beckett)

Do I have graded cards? -Yes, from all three major companies, and a couple others.
have I had my own cards graded? - Yes, all by SGC.
Did I miss things about any of those? -Yes, for a variety of reasons. Only one alteration, which was a surprise as I bought the card around 1978-80 from a reputable dealer. Another was a last minute choice to get to the number of cards for a special. far too hasty, just glanced and said "oh ok, that's a nice one"
But, I'm not being paid to spot those things, the grading companies are.

On older cards I'm very confident, slightly less so on newer cards. The size tolerances are a misleading thing for many sets. It really depends on how they were cut.
A lot of modern cards are actually die cut and should have no variance in size.
Some sets will be hellish for grading companies in the future, most modern Gypsy Queens were apparently die cut in panels then cut in a paper cutter the rest of the way. So right out of the pack they have two different proper edge qualities on the same card. As for as I know, nobody has cataloged that in any way. I collected them until a couple years ago, and haven't even tried yet (Or completed the sets.) How will they handle it when every card in the set appears trimmed?
The sheer number of uncataloged oddities that affect entire modern sets or large portions of sets is amazing.

If I had that sort of money, yes, I'd put up my own cash against yours on pretty much any card from before about 1992. And on many cards made after that.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If I could spend the sort of money they get for stuff, I'd either learn about what I wanted, or hire an expert.

I've been given to understand that a lot of buyers of stuff that's very expensive do just that, as well as have that expert bid as their agent.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Oh mate, Palm Cove is unbeliebably beautiful.....AND HOT.
I'm jealous, that's absolute G_d's country. Too many crocs these days up North so can't take the kids and let them run around, serious problem as these prehistoric monsters swim out to sea and then 16ft of chomp turns up in the shallows of the beach.

I'm a Melbourne boy but love Sydney too.
Probably end up back where I have most family and friends.

Good on ya. I have been very fortunate to have visited Sydney 4 times, including the 2000 Olympics where I rented a condo for a month near Darling Harbour, in Pyrmont. I have also visited Brisbane where I delivered an ebay purchase to someone. Probably a record for in person delivery of an ebay purchase. Went to the Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary, Mt Coot tha Botanical Gardens and got Cathy Freeman at a book signing. Farther up north I have been to Cairns, Kuranda and Port Douglas. I have snorkeled on the Great Barrier Reef 3 times. They give you more freedom if you snorkel rather than scuba. It also helps if you can free dive a bit. One of the times I got stung by some blue bottles or the such, but it was like a mosquito bite, no big deal. I took my wife out there on our honeymoon. She was a bit scared of sharks and the such but said it was one of the greatest things she ever did. They were filming the Matthew McConaughey/Kate Hudson movie 'Fools Gold' while we were there though we did not see any of it. There is a scene in a tropical bar during the daytime that is a bar on the Esplanade in Palm Cove.

Next trip there I want to go to Sydney (wife wants to see Bondi, I prefer Manly), Red Centre to see Uluru, Melbourne and Palm Cove. Being an Olympic historian I want to see the MCG. I have a few million Hilton Honor points so it would only be the cost of flights.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by steve B

The when and why of an alteration don't matter. That the alteration did happen does.

Old cards, yes, I'm very confident I could spot nearly all alterations.
There are people skilled enough that their work would be very hard to detect. The point would be that PSA has multiple people, some very experienced. They also supposedly have a very nice piece of equipment that can allow viewing the card under various forms of light shown from different angles. Since it costs about 60K I don't have one. Maybe I should ask for theirs, since they don't seem to use it.

It's not about making perfect the enemy of good. It's about a company that calls themselves experts living up to their own claims. And taking responsibility for their mistakes instead of reholdering them with new serial numbers and denying they were wrong even when shown photos of the same card before and after altering. (SGC too. And probably Beckett)

Do I have graded cards? -Yes, from all three major companies, and a couple others.
have I had my own cards graded? - Yes, all by SGC.
Did I miss things about any of those? -Yes, for a variety of reasons. Only one alteration, which was a surprise as I bought the card around 1978-80 from a reputable dealer. Another was a last minute choice to get to the number of cards for a special. far too hasty, just glanced and said "oh ok, that's a nice one"
But, I'm not being paid to spot those things, the grading companies are.

On older cards I'm very confident, slightly less so on newer cards. The size tolerances are a misleading thing for many sets. It really depends on how they were cut.
A lot of modern cards are actually die cut and should have no variance in size.
Some sets will be hellish for grading companies in the future, most modern Gypsy Queens were apparently die cut in panels then cut in a paper cutter the rest of the way. So right out of the pack they have two different proper edge qualities on the same card. As for as I know, nobody has cataloged that in any way. I collected them until a couple years ago, and haven't even tried yet (Or completed the sets.) How will they handle it when every card in the set appears trimmed?
The sheer number of uncataloged oddities that affect entire modern sets or large portions of sets is amazing.

If I had that sort of money, yes, I'd put up my own cash against yours on pretty much any card from before about 1992. And on many cards made after that.

Steve, I think you're missing my point....I'm not questioning your hobby knowledge or ability to detect many alterations, though I think you underestimate the divergence of opinion to yours when doing so.
I just don't expect a fleet of Steve B's working for $12/hr in the grading offices.

I think the issue at hand is your expectation of what a grading company is, what it promises or doesn't, and whether it is beholden to meet particular expectations.

I own a 2014 Mercedes E350. When I get it serviced, the likelihood is that the tech who runs diagnostics knows how to use the machine that runs the testing and has a bare minimum of tools knowledge. For most work in and out of the Mercedes service shop it is sufficient to get him round most issues. Within the shop there will be a couple more skilled mechanics, and hopefully at the dealership at least one master mechanic. Each draws different wages, and when different mechanical issues arise expertise up the line can be drawn.

MY expectation of a grading company is of an entry level tech who knows how to use the basic machines, applies a standard set of testing to maintain my car, and keep me moving on my way.
YOUR expectation of a grading company is for master mechanics versed heavily in how the vehicle has been built and operates to give care to your 2014 E350 and to never miss what should be obvious with all that accumulated industry lore.

I look for true hobby knowledge here and amongst friends who know more about cards than most. They have given considerable years and innumerable hours to the pursuit because of love and passion for the hobby.

I look to grading companies to do some basic assessment so that I am not shocked or disappointed when a card arrives, ostensibly in a condition not as the seller has described. The grading company steps in between us and applies 10 minutes max of work into investigating just a few of the most important criteria, but hopefully with enough accuracy to grease the trade.

It's not like I don't see the problems you do.
It's just that I look at the volume, the time alloted, the fee associated, the overall experience, and feel it approximates what I expect.
I hate the mistakes, abhor the dishonesty that is suggested to be happening between some companies involved, and enjoy justice being meted out.

But I don't think the whole hobby is f#*@+d because of grading, or that the problems are so overwhelming I can't go about my own collecting.

Eat at enough Subways and someone will make you a sandwich that makes you sick. Overall, the company puts a lot of food in peoples stomaches at reasonable prices so they're doing their job OK....

That's how I feel about grading. It's mostly doing its job IMO.

SGC/Beckett/PSA, yes they likely talk up their expertise to give confidence to their customers. That doesn't bother me too much.

What each company really needs is a small division called 'Misses', where any problem card/problem assessment reaches a more seasoned tech who has a commitment to correcting the issue, and for the companies to be ok with transparency around those issues. There could even be a section of their websites just for that, illustrating in large pic format and with significant description the issues identified with the card that were originally missed, and for it to be seen as an educational tool for the hobby.

Problem is this country is such a litigous one, even here on this forum you find such immature responses where tar and feather is demanded and wholesale badmouthing of grading occurs with the seeming desire to just bring the whole thing down.....
These companies are better off financially just ignoring or downplaying the failure rate because it's clientele isn't mature enough to accept that perfection is unattainable and you get what you pay for.

I'm all for you starting up your own grading company Steve, problem will lie in who you employ.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Good on ya. I have been very fortunate to have visited Sydney 4 times, including the 2000 Olympics where I rented a condo for a month near Darling Harbour, in Pyrmont. I have also visited Brisbane where I delivered an ebay purchase to someone. Probably a record for in person delivery of an ebay purchase. Went to the Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary, Mt Coot tha Botanical Gardens and got Cathy Freeman at a book signing. Farther up north I have been to Cairns, Kuranda and Port Douglas. I have snorkeled on the Great Barrier Reef 3 times. They give you more freedom if you snorkel rather than scuba. It also helps if you can free dive a bit. One of the times I got stung by some blue bottles or the such, but it was like a mosquito bite, no big deal. I took my wife out there on our honeymoon. She was a bit scared of sharks and the such but said it was one of the greatest things she ever did. They were filming the Matthew McConaughey/Kate Hudson movie 'Fools Gold' while we were there though we did not see any of it. There is a scene in a tropical bar during the daytime that is a bar on the Esplanade in Palm Cove.

Next trip there I want to go to Sydney (wife wants to see Bondi, I prefer Manly), Red Centre to see Uluru, Melbourne and Palm Cove. Being an Olympic historian I want to see the MCG. I have a few million Hilton Honor points so it would only be the cost of flights.

You've done it right mate. The thing I'll miss most about the US is the people, they've been so good to me wherever I've lived from NY to Chi town to KC. Everyone says to me they want to go to OZ one day, I always tell them not to wait.
Don't like to toot the horn but it's a beautiful country.
LOVE that you've taken real time, tbh it doesn't matter so much where you go in the world as long as you go. It's good for the soul.
Hit me up when you go next and I'll set you up with some food with my friends and will even take you to the MCG for a footy match...best time to be there. Holds a little over 100K people and the place pulses with the crowd noise. Goosebumps.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

You've done it right mate. The thing I'll miss most about the US is the people, they've been so good to me wherever I've lived from NY to Chi town to KC. Everyone says to me they want to go to OZ one day, I always tell them not to wait.
Don't like to toot the horn but it's a beautiful country.
LOVE that you've taken real time, tbh it doesn't matter so much where you go in the world as long as you go. It's good for the soul.
Hit me up when you go next and I'll set you up with some food with my friends and will even take you to the MCG for a footy match...best time to be there. Holds a little over 100K people and the place pulses with the crowd noise. Goosebumps.

Every time I mention going there people complain about the flight, 14 hours from LA to Sydney for those who don't know. My response is always think about where you are going, not the travel to get there. It is a 10 hour flight to Fiji, but who cares, it is a beatiful place and the people are very friendly. I hopped on the local bus one day and went to Latoka just to walk around as it is not a tourist destination. I visited the farmers market in a large open air building. Some of the local men selling fruit asked me to sit with them and drink kava. When in Rome as they say. It actually had no effect on me, but I enjoyed experiencing how locals live. I have always tried that in OZ. Definitely do the tourist stuff, but also try to experience how the natives live.

I will take you up on that if the timing is good. I would also like to have someone explain the rules of rugger and cricket to me. They can be fun to watch but understanding would help. The same goes for (team) handball which I watch on tv whenever I am in Europe.

A few photos from down under.

Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary
Aus-1a.jpg

Top of the Sydney Harbour Bridge
Aus-2a.jpg

My wife did not understand how easy it is to pet a kangaroo and scratch them behind the ears when it is 95º+ outside but she loved it.
aus-3a.jpg

[glynparson]

Anyone expecting perfection is an absolute idiot. Perfection should be what the companies strive for but any one expecting absolute perfection is even dumber than some of their posts make them look. As for that parkhirst it is a terrible grade if it looks like that in hand I agree the scan looks off as far as manipulation. But I will also 100% guarantee they would buy that card back if that’s what it looks like so what’s the damn issue. Mark will complain about PSA no matter what. It’s like a broken record. The thread could be about where are you going eat after the show tonight and he’ll comment with something about how bad PSA sucks. Frankly the broken record thing is tiresome.

[swarmee]

Expecting perfection? The catchphrase from the CEO of Collector's Universe is "NEVER GET CHEATED!"

Most of us don't expect perfection. But many of these alterations should be caught under a blacklight, or by knowing what the proper size for the issue is.

But the biggest poke in the eye to collector's is knowing that long term trimmers from 20 years ago were never banned from PSA and continued to submit until finally being banned (maybe?) when PSA was under FBI investigation. That's 20 MORE YEARS of trimmed/altered cards they allowed in their holders, INTENTIONALLY.

I find your white-knighting/apologetics for PSA and the other companies absolutely hysterical. When PSA has been showed evidence of trimmed cards in their holders (before and after pictures of the same numbered card), they have disagreed with the photographic proof and reholdered the cards as the number grades they originally got. That's not just a whoops, that's intentional fraud.

[Bigdaddy]

I don't think anyone expects perfection, especially in a business that is assigns a numerical grade to a piece of paper and then renders an opinion on whether it has been materially changed since its first issuance.

As far as grading, that is a subjective matter entirely and perfection does not exist in that realm. What we hope for is a clear set of rules on which a grade will be assigned, an honest effort and that the grade is not dependent on the submitter.

As far as alteration/reprint detection, I believe most people are looking for competence and fairness, not perfection.

Seems to me that the majority of complaints directed towards PSA are about incompetence in being able to detect alterations and favored service to a small group of submitters, either by turning a blind eye to readily apparent alterations or relaxing the grading criteria.

Neither of these complaints have anything to do with perfection.

Tom Jordan

Originally Posted by glynparson

Anyone expecting perfection is an absolute idiot. Perfection should be what the companies strive for but any one expecting absolute perfection is even dumber than some of their posts make them look. As for that parkhirst it is a terrible grade if it looks like that in hand I agree the scan looks off as far as manipulation. But I will also 100% guarantee they would buy that card back if that’s what it looks like so what’s the damn issue. Mark will complain about PSA no matter what. It’s like a broken record. The thread could be about where are you going eat after the show tonight and he’ll comment with something about how bad PSA sucks. Frankly the broken record thing is tiresome.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I'm all for you starting up your own grading company Steve, problem will lie in who you employ.

I think generally the companies do an ok job.
I don't worry too much about the actual grade, no matter what grade it gets some percentage of people will think it's wrong. I was never much into centering, and didn't like that cards that were very well preserved got downgraded because the centering was off.
I've sort of come around...

And failures are expected occasionally

I'm really not impressed with the sheer number of failures they've had with cards graded by particular customers. Some of what came out was probably in the range of 80% missed alterations in a batch. To me that at best points to someone who shouldn't be doing it. At worst, someone who is part of the problem.

One of the kids I worked with at the bicycle shop (who was a fantastic mechanic even at 14) has gone on to become an auto mechanic for range rover. At high end places these days most of the mechanics are excellent and have multiple certifications plus factory training. I worked for a while for a Chrysler dealer in the late 80's early 90's and things were pretty much the way you describe, except everyone was responsible for their own work. That led to variable speed and quality of work. Ok... ish... for Chrysler Plymouth, maybe not for Mercedes.

In my less sane moments I have considered doing some sort of grading, mostly as just myself. Patterned after stamp expertisers. In the US, it's similar to card grading, three main companies, and a handful of specialized groups.
Europe however has individual experts or groups that handle specific areas.
I don't think any of them do grades, they all pretty much refuse to have specified turn around times. And only recently have moved away from simply marking the stamp and towards a certificate with a photo on it.
One company did/does do slabs... not all that successfully, as they're fighting 180 years of keeping stamps in albums.
I've talked to a couple guys that do that as experts for one company or another, and the stuff they just know is amazing. like last time I learned that one way of telling the 1879 paper from the earlier paper is that one reacts just slightly to shortwave UV... I've never seen that in any book.

But I have a few other projects, and I'm hopelessly disorganized. Having people send me batches of expensive cards would be a very bad idea.

[benjulmag]

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

You aren't giving stupidity it's fair credence.

[perezfan]

“So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?”

Obviously it’s more “something else” than stupid. A good beginning would be to stop taking in cards from known trimmers and doctors.

Yet PSA’s list of “Recommended Dealers” still endorses Dennis Pevarnick and other known card doctors. If PSA really wanted to engage in cleaning things up, they would take a few obvious proactive steps.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=3

[ZR1]

Personally I dont like how PSA grades cards. I dont see how a 60/40 centering gets a 10 Gem Mint! I sent them a Jordan rookie, pulled right from the pack, perfectly centered, sharp corners, etc. I get a 8. Im tempted to break out of case and send to SGC, just because. But Ive seen quite a few 60/40 centered Jordan rookies graded Gem Mint! Makes no sense to me. In my opinion, if you're a high volume card submitter, and your borderline of the better grade, you're getting the better grade.
As for the card altering, this stuff has been going on for many years. Im sure some graders know the cards are altered and trimmed and grade them anyways, put them in smaller cases. All one has to do is pull out a tape measure.
Makes the hobby not fun like it used to be. I personally wont buy any older high grade cards anymore, for the simple fact, it could be altered. Who wants to spend thousands, if not tens of thousands on a card, just to find out later on, it was altered. Id be pissed just like anyone else.

[ALR-bishop]

Opinions and names seem to go better together