Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Fair enough Ted. So back to the discussion the coupon carton you refer to in
Jeremy's post doesn't have the quotation marks either.

Attachment 339249

and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from.

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.
Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.
Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......

.

Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.


Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

How is the pack on Jon's site any different than the carton?

In your thread title you ask "what say you" and when I posted my opinion
you stated that I'm uniformed and that I'm misleading people.

I don't care if people consider them T206's but in my opinion there is more
evidence to support how Burdick catalogued them and not enough to change
it.

Yes they have the same image as T206's but the same group of subjects
are not found on any other backs except piedmont's which were used on
every subject with the exception of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis.

The same T206 images were also used for type 2 and 3 and the Chief Meyers
T213-3 card depicting him with New Haven would have been printed in 1919 or
later, eight years after the T206 printing supposedly ended. So they either
made new plates or used the T206 plates after their printing ended.
When I look at the group of subjects in the T213-1's it seems plausible
that's what they did with them.

Do you have a copy of that newspaper clipping and does it mention
anything about baseball pictures?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

How is the pack on Jon's site any different than the carton?

It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.

Originally Posted by Pat R

I don't care if people consider them T206's but in my opinion there is more
evidence to support how Burdick catalogued them and not enough to change
it.

Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919

Originally Posted by Pat R

Do you have a copy of that newspaper clipping and does it mention anything about baseball pictures?

The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

I have been searching past threads. I did find one from 2009 where Jamie Hull
questioned the 1910 date but no one mentioned a Coupon newspaper clipping.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.





Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919




The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.

Post #59 in this thread has a 1908 newspaper clipping from the New Orleans Times Picayune
that mentions Coupon cigarettes but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Picayune

[CobbSpikedMe]

Interesting how the clipping about the contest also has the "Coupon" in quotes. Pat, nice job finding the thread.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Post #59 in this thread has a 1908 newspaper clipping from the New Orleans Times Picayune
that mentions Coupon cigarettes but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Picayune

That's the 1908 Times Picayune article which I referred to regarding the "COUPON" Cigarettes brand. I knew you would find it.

Come on Pat, this is silly...."but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.".

T206's were not issued until approx. a year later (circa Spring/Summer 1909).

Anyway, thanks for finding this Newspaper article.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

That's my point Ted I asked where the 1910 dating of the T213-1's came from and
you said a newspaper clipping if that's not the case then where did that information
come from?

[Leon]

Maybe, Like many other things, it came from conjecture not fact. When I started quoting Burdick all I got in response was some old hobbyists said "this and that." I say if we are going to have a good debate we should base it on facts not what someone might have said a long time ago.

Originally Posted by Pat R

That's my point Ted I asked where the 1910 dating of the T213-1's came from and
you said a newspaper clipping if that's not the case then where did that information
come from?