1909-11 T206 Honus Wagner vs. 1911-16 Kotton Honus Wagner: Who Has More?

[Leon]

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

"The only thing rarer than this item is a buyer"--Bill Huggins

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

"The only thing rarer than this item is a buyer"--Bill Huggins

Now that's funny......I love it!!

[scottglevy]

Ok,

So now that we're on the topic of T216s ... please dole out a little more education for novices like myself....

Where do the Kotton / Mino / Virginia Extras stack up against each other in terms of relative rarity.

What's the deal with the thick vs. thin varieties? Anyone know how and why this happened -- and which is more collected (I assume thicker would be).

Regards,
Scott

[rman444]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Where do the Kotton / Mino / Virginia Extras stack up against each other in terms of relative rarity.

What's the deal with the thick vs. thin varieties? Anyone know how and why this happened -- and which is more collected (I assume thicker would be).

Scott,

There are probably a handful of threads that can be found with the search function that talk about T216s and all of the different varieties. However, the short of it is:

T216 Kotton - 3 types. Types 1 and 2 are thicker stock with 2 different backs. These are the most commonly found T216s, although commonly is relative as even these are extremely difficult compared to most other T issues. These are also the least condition sensitive due to the thicker stock - usually found in VG condition. Type 3 is, in my opinion, a whole different issue with a different back and extremely thin paper stock. They are much tougher than the first two types and are almost always found in deplorable condition.



T216 Mino - Similar in paper stock to Kotton types 1 and 2. However, these seem to be found in lesser condition, on average (G to VG). Compared to Kottons, Minos are much much tougher.



T216 Virginia Extra - Similar in paper stock to Kotton type 3's. These are also found in deplorable condition, often missing big chunks. VE's are even tougher than Minos.

I guess that wasn't so short, but hopefully it explains a little.

Any T216 experts out there, please feel free to correct.

[rman444]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

Leon -

If I could correct you, the correct percentages in determining value are:

rarity 0%
supply 50%
demand 50%

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

Yes but rarity can drive demand, not like they are unrelated. I think the more accurate statement is that rarity is just one factor driving demand.

[scottglevy]

Thanks !!

Very useful summary.

[Leon]

I think Richard gave a great, brief synopsis of T216, right above. Yes, demand is the word moreso than rarity, when determining value. I think Peter, Richard and myself are just splitting hairs on the semantics. I use "demand" and "rarity" interchangably and that is not really the correct way to do it. Even above, I did it.


Here is a possibility of a Kotton type 2 packaging......Hopefully, I will have it in hand in the next few days.

[rman444]

Leon -

Congrats! That pack is an incredible find! Can I ask about the details on how you were able to locate it? Was it from somewhere around NO?

These are the best I have been able to find related to Kotton. My colored wrapper certainly appears to be a later generation of tobacco pack than yours. The uncolored tobacco pack graphics might be from the same era.

I think you might have the first Kotton pack known to the hobby!

[martyogelvie]

Aren't rarity and supply synonymous?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by martyogelvie

Aren't rarity and supply synonymous?

Yes, they are sort of synonymous but I guess they can be construed differently. IF we debate this it will be worse than the Wagner-strip debate .

Richard- Let me get it in hand and then give more details. Also, it wouldn't have held the type 1 or 3 cards, as they say "cigarettes" on the backs. The type 2s say "tobacco" though. I am not sure about it being the exact period but think it could be. More details after I receive it.......regards

ps...I remember raining on your parade a little bit on the pack you have, which is still a great pack, but as we know it's not old enough to be period. I would imagine the period packs were very simlar though and yours is a great display piece.

[tedzan]

Here is one of the Throwing poses. This card is duplicated in the T216 set with the caption titled "2b".....instead of "s.s."







TED Z

[rman444]

At the risk of starting a debate, rarity and supply are related. However, I believe that supply is more of a general term about total amount out there, without implying any specific quantity. Rarity is a measurement of supply, with the implication that it is small amount.

Leon - I can't wait to hear the details of your find! I have been collecting information and misc items from the People's Tobacco Company for years and have yet to come across anything as great as your pack.

And no worries about raining on my parade. I believe it was my coupon pack that you slapped around, but if you want to insult my Kotton wrapper as well, have at it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rman444

And no worries about raining on my parade. I believe it was my coupon pack that you slapped around, but if you want to insult my Kotton wrapper as well, have at it.

Too funny......Oh well, old age setting in. Whatever it was I said, it was mostly just an observation and not, in any way, meant to diminish one of your beautiful packs. I love collecting the packaging our cards came in. best regards

[rman444]

It is a shared sickness.

And since this thread is turning into a T216 show me your stuff, here are a couple of other interesting People's Tobacco packaging items: