New allegations on BO

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

Don't disagree but then what about our site which has PWCC ad in banner?

that's leon's preference to continue to associate with a crook!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

How does PSA determine the amount refund on an improperly graded card? Is it based on current market? Amount paid? Other?

Mark

What makes you think that PSA will pay a cent to anyone? That is not their MO; if that was the plan don't you think we'd have heard from PSA by now, nearly a month into this?

I expect that anyone who wants to cash in on the PSA guarantee will have to sue PSA to do it. Smells like a class action to me...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What makes you think that PSA will pay a cent to anyone? That is not their MO; if that was the plan don't you think we'd have heard from PSA by now, nearly a month into this?

I expect that anyone who wants to cash in on the PSA guarantee will have to sue PSA to do it. Smells like a class action to me...

On its current trajectory this scandal is going to be the biggest threat they have dealt with yet. We'll see if they do their WIWAG ostrich thing again or provide a more meaningful response.

[MULLINS5]

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What makes you think that PSA will pay a cent to anyone? That is not their MO; if that was the plan don't you think we'd have heard from PSA by now, nearly a month into this?

I expect that anyone who wants to cash in on the PSA guarantee will have to sue PSA to do it. Smells like a class action to me...

I suspect they are going to bury their head in the sand like they always have and hope it all just goes away. I can assure you it’s not. This time it’s going to be different.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

haha...funny! Brent either had everybody fooled or everybody's in on it!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

"I really do not get it why people are slamming him. must be jealousy simply because he is successful at what he does and has a big following of buyers and sellers. All I see is he is trying hard to make the hobby a better place for everyone. What other seller out there is trying to do something for the good of it instead of trying to rip everyone off?" - Bobby Binder VCP (April, 2017).

PWCC had and probably still has lots of people drinking their Kool Aid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I suspect they are going to bury their head in the sand like they always have and hope it all just goes away. I can assure you it’s not. This time it’s going to be different.

Steven, yeah that's certainly been their corporate culture. Will the new guy Sloan make a difference, or the sheer magnitude of it?

[Exhibitman]

My prediction: not until the summonses start landing on the desk of CU's registered agent for service of process...

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steven, yeah that's certainly been their corporate culture. Will the new guy Sloan make a difference, or the sheer magnitude of it?

If you look at the market cap of CLCT, the amount they have in reserve to pay out for claims like these, and then do a rough calculation as to their legitimate exposure, I suspect Sloan is having a very hard time sleeping at night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

If you look at the market cap of CLCT, the amount they have in reserve to pay out for claims like these, and then do a rough calculation as to their legitimate exposure, I suspect Sloan is having a very hard time sleeping at night.

Yup. It's ugly. Now of course they probably have a claim over against whoever submitted these fraudulent cards, be it Brent or Gary, for breach of the submission agreement and maybe fraud, but that's probably not much consolation.

They also face the possibility of securities fraud claims, I suppose, if they have reason to know their reserve is materially insufficient.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. It's ugly. Now of course they probably have a claim over against whoever submitted these fraudulent cards, be it Brent or Gary, for breach of the submission agreement and maybe fraud, but that's probably not much consolation.

They also face the possibility of securities fraud claims, I suppose, if they have reason to know their reserve is materially insufficient.

I imagine Brent will blame it all on Moser, PSA and refer to his tenets as the authority to make it all seem ok, PSA will blame Brent and Moser for duping them and Moser will blame Brent, I suspect for conspiring with him to commit fraud. Ultimately that will be for the Feds and lawyers to sort out as to whom is responsible for what. The bottom line is assuming all of the research BO is doing is accurate, they are all guilty in part and will be held accountable whether it be financial or criminal. And until there’s a better system of somehow marking cards that get graded so any attempt at altering (or conserving as Brent would say) can be easily caught, this cycle will repeat itself again in the next few years. Just too much money at stake.

[Republicaninmass]

Could be a similar response

" As (insert whatever helps here) is a federal offense, it is common that the FBI becomes involved to achieve restitution from the suspected party. In this particular case, there may be an open FBI investigation, and we recommend that any parties involved reach out to that organization directly"

Paraphrased from a TPG, until my grades ship next werk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I imagine Brent will blame it all on Moser, PSA and refer to his tenets as the authority to make it all seem ok, PSA will blame Brent and Moser for duping them and Moser will blame Brent, I suspect for conspiring with him to commit fraud. Ultimately that will be for the Feds and lawyers to sort out as to whom is responsible for what. The bottom line is assuming all of the research BO is doing is accurate, they are all guilty in part and will be held accountable whether it be financial or criminal. And until there’s a better system of somehow marking cards that get graded so any attempt at altering (or conserving as Brent would say) can be easily caught, this cycle will repeat itself again in the next few years. Just too much money at stake.

Brent can't blame Moser.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC had and probably still has lots of people drinking their Kool Aid.

One needs only look at the current bids and it appears to be business as usual.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

One needs only look at the current bids and it appears to be business as usual.

As it was for Legendary, until it wasn't.

[swarmee]

If Brent was smart, he'd cancel all his eBay listings and return the cards to his consignors. Well, the cards that can't be used as evidence.

Edit: And I emailed him this recommendation and CC: Steve Sloan.

[Rhotchkiss]

John, I appreciate the letter you sent to the FL authorities. Thank you

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As it was for Legendary, until it wasn't.

Agreed. The walls are getting weaker. To speak nothing of the vault.

[t206madman]

I wouldn't count on the FBI or police doing anything positive for us. Over the last decade or so, I've learned how corrupt our government is. WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away. The Feds and FBI are in on all these deceptions.

These big companies work with the governments and federal authorities to deceive us, so don't count on them being of any help. They all cover their own asses with lies and deceptions. I don't trust the governments and I don't trust freemasons.

[drcy]

If past experience is a guide, PSA will say nothing unless they absolutely have to. After all, they haven't yet said the Wagner Gretzky is trimmed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

If past experience is a guide, PSA will say nothing unless they absolutely have to. After all, they haven't yet said the Wagner Gretzky is trimmed.

Or sheet cut!!

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by drcy

If past experience is a guide, PSA will say nothing unless they absolutely have to. After all, they haven't yet said the Wagner Gretzky is trimmed.

Well, they don't have $4 million in the bank to pay out on that one, either. But I've said before that the owner of the card (and the community as a whole) would probably say there's not much value lost on that card by putting it in an AUTH ALTERED holder because it is the most famous copy of the most famous card in the world, and was owned by the most famous hockey player.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think so, and certainly hope so, in this day and age word will spread.

The current auction prices look like this has had no effect at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jad22

The current auction prices look like this has had no effect at all.

It will take time to have an effect, but I believe it will.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It will take time to have an effect, but I believe it will.

I can't imagine people would already have bids up to 28 grand on the E98 Cobb knowing all this.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Not everyone knows all this yet.

[swarmee]

Maybe they just want PSA to take it deeper out of hide.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jad22

I can't imagine people would already have bids up to 28 grand on the E98 Cobb knowing all this.

Small corner of the collecting world, this and BO.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

We on Net54, often fall into the trap of thinking we are a large piece of the collecting world. I can't tell you how many times I've had people buy tobacco cards from me and I ask if they're a member of Net 54 and they look at me very confused and ask "what?" Hopefully some take my advice and join, but we are a small percentage of collectors to be sure.

EDIT: Fine Peter, say it more succinctly and get in first lol.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You’re forgetting betsy.

First there's a lot of talk about Fraud and Shill Bidding without the words "alleged". My gut is telling me that all the investigating at Blowout Cards and what people here are saying is accurate, but I'd still go with the wording "alleged". Certainly people are angry with PWCC and Brent Huigens hasn't done himself any favors during that interview, but he isn't apart of a criminal investigation that I'm aware of.

I haven't seen PWCC's financial statements but they claim $50 million in annual sales which is a clear motive for an alleged fraud, but people have to be careful with these accusations from a legal standpoint at this point.

It's somewhat ambiguous to me that card doctoring is illegal but there is precedent for a potential indictment in the Bill Mastro and Doug Allen cases. These two cases could debunk Brent's assertion that "before and after" photos aren't evidence, but I suppose it isn't a crime unless the card is sold or the company knowingly sells items which have been altered and doesn't inform the purchaser. In order for someone to conclude that is the case -Before and after photos are just half of what's needed to build a case. There are 2 things which immediately come to mind: 1) If Shill Bidding is evident, (which is illegal) a forensic computer analyst should be involved with that. 2) Follow the money and emails and flip certain key people within. I don't think you can flip Betsy Huigens since she's married to Brent but the CFO, IT guys and low to mid level auction. operations guys can be much easier.

I wouldn't just look into PWCC but also PSA and see if there's a grader or two on the take looking the other way. Personally, I don't trust the grading companies and wouldn't submit a card with one.

Lastly, everyone is entitled to a defense -even Brent and Betsy Huigens and if there is any wrong doing, it should be settled in a courtroom, not a court of opinion. I'd say that if anyone truly feels that they have case against PWCC, that they should make it with the AG or their state, the Oregon AG or FBI for further investigation.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by topcat61

I wouldn't just look into PWCC but also PSA and see if there's a grader or two on the take looking the other way.

I haven't even posted this 50-page thread on blowout that was started like two days ago about BGS giving impossibly favorable grades to a former employee who is still friends with their graders:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

BGS is in on the scam. That I have no doubt. PSA I can still be convinced is just COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT. Also, I am not a lawyer. If someone wants to sue me or send me a C&D, maybe I can get one of you awesome barristers to represent me pro bono. Oddly enough, I have received zero emails/messages asking me to stop posting. As they say, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."

[orly57]

Originally Posted by t206madman

I wouldn't count on the FBI or police doing anything positive for us. Over the last decade or so, I've learned how corrupt our government is. WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away. The Feds and FBI are in on all these deceptions.

These big companies work with the governments and federal authorities to deceive us, so don't count on them being of any help. They all cover their own asses with lies and deceptions. I don't trust the governments and I don't trust freemasons.

Maybe you can keep your opinions on these issues to your wack-job, conspiracy theory forums, and leave only baseball card opinions on net54.

[celoknob]

Originally Posted by t206madman

WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away

Your Alex Jones conspiracy theories are really disgusting. Spewing out this filth about Sandy Hook where 20 children were murdered and 27 total killed. Then conspiracy theorists harassed parents of the dead until Jones finally blamed his belief in this false theory on "pyschosis".

Kell Wilson

[Leon]

I have had 2 pm''s concerning his post. His name has been put under his id. I think what he said is disgusting, and totally disagree with him, but am not sure taking it down is the right thing to do? It is definitely debatable, though probably better for another thread. If that post is taken down do we then go find the other posts in this forum which are disgusting (to whomever) and delete them too? And if the post is taken down won't we be hiding the way he feels/thinks (quite crazy) so other members can know? Personally, I would rather know that someone is ape-shit crazy, but that is just me.
This is not a black and white situation. I wish it were.

Originally Posted by orly57

Maybe you can keep your opinions on these issues to your wack-job, conspiracy theory forums, and leave only baseball card opinions on net54.

[swarmee]

If anywhere, they belong in the off-topic section.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by t206madman

I wouldn't count on the FBI or police doing anything positive for us. Over the last decade or so, I've learned how corrupt our government is. WTC 7 was hidden from the masses when it collapsed in 2001, sandy hoax, fake shootings, fake propaganda to take our gun rights away. The Feds and FBI are in on all these deceptions.

These big companies work with the governments and federal authorities to deceive us, so don't count on them being of any help. They all cover their own asses with lies and deceptions. I don't trust the governments and I don't trust freemasons.

"Sandy Hoax." 26 people died in that elementary school shooting, including 20 kids between 6-7 years old. If you are going to write disgusting conspiracy theory BS find another site for it. That's probably the worst thing I've ever seen written on this board.

[robkas68]

I have never sold anything with PWCC. I have purchased some things through PWCC though not too much in the last few years for no other reason then their sale prices have been too rich for my blood. I have purchased a couple items from other people named on blowout, but they have generally been low dollar $15-20 type stuff. Today I found my first hit:

T205 Mathewson. No idea if it is bad, and it was not the huge hit some people will take, but I did pay around $350 for it. The other card really doesn't have anything to do with the thread, I just photograph the cards I put in my safe deposit box.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have had 2 pm''s concerning his post. His name has been put under his id. I think what he said is disgusting, and totally disagree with him, but am not sure taking it down is the right thing to do? It is definitely debatable, though probably better for another thread. If that post is taken down do we then go find the other posts in this forum which are disgusting (to whomever) and delete them too? This is not a black and white situation.

They are disgusting and have nothing to do with baseball cards. They are purely political, and politics isn't allowed on this board. My two cents.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Maybe they just want PSA to take it deeper out of hide.

John, this is in reference to this price of the Cobb?

They say they can pay market price or SMR value. This card is probably shilled by the consignor

[orly57]

I don’t care if you take it down or not. It is a nice reminder, however, that we have far bigger problems to worry about than Brent and PSA.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by robkas68

T205 Mathewson. No idea if it is bad, and it was not the huge hit some people will take, but I did pay around $350 for it. The other card really doesn't have anything to do with the thread, I just photograph the cards I put in my safe deposit box.

Put it under a blacklight to see if you can detect recoloring, reglossing, or pressed out creases. According to one poster, Corey (Last Name Unknown), PSA will review it for free because of this scandal. If it was altered and you want it in an AUTH-ALTERED slab, they'll refund you the difference in values.

Edit: looks like it is Cory Weiser who posted his call from PSA.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

John, this is in reference to this price of the Cobb?
They say they can pay market price or SMR value. This card is probably shilled by the consignor

It was in reference. Posts are fast and furious this week getting in the way... ;-)
The eyes of the collecting/sleuthing community is on PSA at this moment. If they try to weasel out of paying their fair share, they are liable to be sued class-action style.
That's why I recommend PSA tell PWCC to IMMEDIATELY REMOVE ALL AUCTION LISTINGS and emailed it to Steve Sloan and copied the Huigens. Just more liability for the publicly traded company.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by griffon512

"Sandy Hoax." 26 people died in that elementary school shooting, including 20 kids between 6-7 years old. If you are going to write disgusting conspiracy theory BS find another site for it. That's probably the worst thing I've ever seen written on this board.

I'm personally relieved to hear it was fake because in the day I spent a lot of time agonizing about it.

PS this individual has no place on this Board.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm personally relieved to hear it was fake because in the day I spent a lot of time agonizing about it.

PS this individual has no place on this Board.

I think the OP should make a personal visit with some of the fathers who "claim" they lost a child at Sandy Hook. They could all meet in a room somewhere behind closed doors. I'm sure it would go well, as who doesn't like a spirited debate?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think the OP should make a personal visit with some of the fathers who "claim" they lost a child at Sandy Hook. They could all meet in a room somewhere behind closed doors. I'm sure it would go well, as who doesn't like a spirited debate?

I think Leon is being way too forgiving here, myself.

[swarmee]

Yeah, I would get it out of this thread. If the OP wants to try again in the right section, he can go down that road. Leon, please edit out the post and responses to the post/quoting. I don't think it's worth discussing in OT either, but then, I rarely visit that section.

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by swarmee

They are, but the fact that eBay told Bobby to pull them in the first place was not cool. And it was very likely to have been prodded by PWCC.

I would only worry about the cards bought from PWCC if they're from 1886 to 2019. The rest are probably fine.

Anything in a bgs 10 is suspect now too.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think the OP should make a personal visit with some of the fathers who "claim" they lost a child at Sandy Hook. They could all meet in a room somewhere behind closed doors. I'm sure it would go well, as who doesn't like a spirited debate?

There is one less father. He killed himself recently: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/n...ok-father.html

It wasn't a hoax to him.