What is the PSA Tolerance for Card Measurements?

[ejharrington]

What is the tolerance that a card can be "short" and still have PSA grading? I saw this on the board recently but can't seem to locate it. Thanks.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

What is the tolerance that a card can be "short" and still have PSA grading? I saw this on the board recently but can't seem to locate it. Thanks.

With recent revelations it appears the tolerance is quite a bit.

.

[Fballguy]

I hear they're not that strict.

[steve B]

I asked when they were new, and at the time it was - If I remember correctly- 1/16th or 1/32 of an inch. The card could be undersize, but not oversize.

Hopefully it varies depending on the issue. Prewar cards can be all over the place sizewise, 2019 Topps should pretty much all be exact.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If PSA is measuring cards, don't you think that's a sign of their incompetency? Measuring tools shouldn't even be available to the graders. If they can't look and tell a factory cut from a non-factory cut, something is wrong. Measurements are easy to manipulate. A factory cut is not.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by steve B

I asked when they were new, and at the time it was - If I remember correctly- 1/16th or 1/32 of an inch. The card could be undersize, but not oversize.

Hopefully it varies depending on the issue. Prewar cards can be all over the place sizewise, 2019 Topps should pretty much all be exact.

Steve, You would know better than I, I'm sure, but when you're talking modern laser cut cards, I would think 1/16 is pretty darn big. And even 1/32 is fairly tolerant. For vintage, obviously sizes can be all over the place, even for later post war cards. Looking at some of the examples in the BO Forum from cards within the past 10 years though leads me to question if their tolerances are too big for new cards or if they aren't even measuring.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If PSA is measuring cards, don't you think that's a sign of their incompetency? Measuring tools shouldn't even be available to the graders. If they can't look and tell a factory cut from a non-factory cut, something is wrong. Measurements are easy to manipulate. A factory cut is not.

I do think they should be measuring.

If they rely only on size, yes that's incompetent.

Older cards have a lot of difference in size. So edge quality is the primary thing, and at least in T206s, it usually survives a ton of abuse.

New cards are cut differently, and in most cases should all be exactly* the same size. Any variance should invite a lot of scrutiny.


*Many are die cut, some like Gypsy Queen, are sometimes die cut on some edges, and blade cut on others. I'm not sure of the natural accuracy of die cut cardboard, but the acceptable variance I believe should be less than 1/100th of an inch, likely a LOT less.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tschock

Steve, You would know better than I, I'm sure, but when you're talking modern laser cut cards, I would think 1/16 is pretty darn big. And even 1/32 is fairly tolerant. For vintage, obviously sizes can be all over the place, even for later post war cards. Looking at some of the examples in the BO Forum from cards within the past 10 years though leads me to question if their tolerances are too big for new cards or if they aren't even measuring.

I would agree. I believe most modern cards are actually die cut, I know for certain that some sets are and others are partly die cut.
Outside of things like expansion from temperature and humidity and wear to the die cutting mats, there should be nearly no size variance.
The discussion I had with them was during their first year.

Gypsy queen are partly die cut, something I was studying when I had the time. I haven't looked for uncut sheets, or made a list of which edges come which way.
I believe Topps probably uses the same method for all sets, but I haven't looked into it.
I've had a chance to spend some time around a hobby level laser cutter the last few years, and the edge it produces is usually burned, or a slight bevel.
I may try a card, and see how it cuts.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by leon

with recent revelations it appears the tolerance is quite a bit.

.

Now that's funny...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I hear they're not that strict.

You should send that card to Moser. I bet he could rebuild the other half and slip it by PSA.

[jammin0511]

I've heard that cards can get "flattened out" if they are kept in non-recessed screw down holders, leading them to fail size requirements (too large). Is it possible that some of these scammers are intentionally flattening cards, then trimming them back into the accepted size limits?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

With recent revelations it appears the tolerance is quite a bit.

.

LOLOL
The Look N Sees.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If PSA is measuring cards, don't you think that's a sign of their incompetency? Measuring tools shouldn't even be available to the graders. If they can't look and tell a factory cut from a non-factory cut, something is wrong. Measurements are easy to manipulate. A factory cut is not.

David, if you have followed BO you'll see Gary apparently is quite adept at mimicking factory cuts.

[JollyElm]

This thread I started a few years back about the cutting of 1962 Topps Green Tints may be of interest to you...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=226221

So many of those cards seemingly came out of the factory short side to side. And I've seen quite a few GT's in PSA slabs that were clearly not 2.5 inches wide, so there is definitely some leeway in the measurements.

[swarmee]

I have never seen a specific tolerance requirement listed on PSA's website.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOLOL
The Look N Sees.

Exactly! That Look-n-See card had the whole left border shaved and it was still given a 9. That suggests they do not measure at all.

Outrageous.

[shagrotn77]

PSA has a no tolerance policy for measuring cards.

[commishbob]

This gets close to something I've been thinking about since the whole 'trimmed and then graded' scandal has broken loose.

A few months ago I bought a nice, raw '75 Yount as one of the last cards for my set build. I bought it from an eBay seller with tons of positive feedback whom I have bought from several times before. I pulled the card from the packaging and examined it and something just seemed 'off'. It took a couple of seconds but I was suddenly aware that the card was not standard size. I laid it down on a stack of other '75s on my desk and sure enough, it was just a tiny bit narrow.No way was it simply a factory miscut. This was trimmed.

Now I've handled many, many raw cards in my many decades of collecting but I'm far from an expert and yet I was able to pick up on the card being 'short' almost immediately. I just sensed it as I examined it in hand. If I can do that how is it possible for graders, whose job it is to spot these things, can let so many go by?

Volume? Boredom? Or something more nefarious? I have opinions but I'll let it all play out. So far, to my eyes, the statements made by the parties involved have been woefully lacking.


BTW...I contacted the dealer via an eBay message and received an almost immediate response which included an apology and paid return label. They forwarded me all the tracking info so I knew the card had reached them and within a half hour of that I was refunded completely.