Non-Ebay Auction Strategy

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

If there is a lot that you know exactly how much you are willing to spend on it, what have you found to be the best tactic for winning the lot?
Do you:
1) Put that bid in early as a straight bid and hope to scare others away at the risk of paying more then it might have gone for?
2) Put that bid i early as a max bid to discourage interested parties since they will get outbid with their early bids?
3) Wait until the last hours of the auction to make that max bid in hope that the competition won't want to get into a serious bidding war at the last minute?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Matt,

I don't trust the big auction houses not to run me up to my maximum bid so I would wait until the very end.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

and even more than non-trust....
I would prefer making that decision as I go.

I don't see the benefit of putting a big max bid on auctions.

1) I can't imagine anyone actually gets scared away from a card they want when they see that they are topped quickly. I wouldn't be.

2) I wouldn't get discouraged one bit if we were competing for a card. I place an early bid and don't care if I get outbid early on - the game starts in the last hours or in the extended time.

3) Put an early bid in - and wait until extended hours.... then start the bidding war. If you are close to the highest you will pay (and would prefer getting a good night's sleep) - then put in the max bid. Otherwise, I would just manually bid each time.

just my opinion.

good luck.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric Brehm

I put in low bids early in the auction so I can qualify for the items I'm interested in. There is always the hope that nobody else will top me after that, but so far that hasn't happened, since I am usually interested in fairly popular items. In any case I wait until the extended period to get serious about bidding.

I put in 'max' or 'ceiling' bids in two circumstances:
(1) I can't stay up any longer to monitor the auction, so I just put in my best bid, go to bed, and hope for the best; or
(2) I know exactly what my maximum price is, so I place a ceiling bid at that level in order to 'camp out' on it, and then let the chips fall where they may.

I have bid in dozens of auctions now, with most of the internet houses, and so far I don't see any evidence that any auction house has ever run me up (i.e. shilled me) to my max bid.

[Archive]

Posted By: Red

You have to remember that there are other collectors just like yourself out there looking at the same item and figuring out what bid point they need to be at to pay a certain price. Only one person can be at that bid point. If you and everybody else looking at the card think it's okay to pay around a $1000 for a card, then the first person to select the $825-$850 area bid point will be the person who has the only chance to buy the card at around $1000. You're not being run up by the auction house. You're being run up by other collectors and dealers who want to buy the card just like you. The reason you would be run up to your max bid is you were smart in selecting the right bid to place on the card.

If it's a difficult card that you feel is worth more than guides suggest, be confident that there are other people out there who feel the same way. So when you place what you feel is a very high bid on a card that seldom comes up, don't think that your the only person in the world who thinks like you do. Whether you get a bargain, get maxed out, or lose the item, it's other bidders controlling your destiny and not the auction house.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Many times I want a certain "spot" in the bidding chronology and am willing to place a max bid to take that spot. Again, this would generally be the most I am willing pay for the lot. My most memorable time doing this was several years ago in one of Lipset's auctions. It was the first day of the auction (I am pretty sure)....There was the lot of 8 E94 overprints....I believe they were from his personal collection and are the same ones shown in his encyclopedia. I knew the most I wanted to pay for them, which at the time was a record price for each one (but as a lot). I think there was either 0 or 1 bid already.....I called Lew and asked if I could place any amount of a bid, as a straight bid, over the current bid. He said, sure, why not? So the lot was like $1000 or something. I said "Put me in a straight bid of $8000"....He said "what?".....I said yes, I want to go straight to $8000......He said fine.....That bid held and I got the lot for $8800 after buyers premium....I love that story....and the cards even more...btw, not a bad investment I don't think? ....best regards (I can never see these too often)

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Leon,
Just curious why would you use that Strategy? If the lot was at 1000 and like you said you won the lot at 8000 that meant no one bid after you put the bid in at 8000. Why not for the sake of arguement put a bid of 3000 knowing lets say you were willing to max out at 8000. If no one bid then wouldnt you have won the lot at 3000? Thus saving 5000? Plus I know its Lews auction but as we all have talked about I myself wouldnt ever put a "topper" bid in on any auction because quite frankly I dont trust any of them either. As we have seen employes with knowledge of the bids can be very dangerous to your wallet! Auction houses dont make clients and themselves money when they know there is more to be made on an item!! And if people dont believe it happens as the old phrase goes I have a nice bridge for sale in Brooklyn!!

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I can only say that at the time my strategy was to block out other bidders that might have wanted to get in later. In order to bid later in the auction you had to have a qualifying bid in (as almost all auctions still do) before the extended later bidding began. By doing that it meant that a bidder was going to have to bid more than 8k to be able to bid later. I was betting no one would. Could I have gotten it cheaper? Maybe, maybe not. I know that all I had to spend was that amount that I did the straight bid with...and was ecstatic to get it for that amount. I am not sure why I am almost always happy to pay record prices for stuff but I have been. I think I could name several cards that I have paid record prices for...and each one has been very good, long term value-wise. I have done the straight bidding strategy since then but it hasn't worked again...someone has always topped me. This might be a crazy way of thinking but what can I say about the mind of a card addict?

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

AH yes the mind of a card addict I forgot to factor that part of it into the saving money part of my formula!!! LOL

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

What about strategy at the end - is it better to go with a Max Bid at the most you want to spend, or is it better to just go 1 increment above and keep battling back and forth with the other bidder in hopes that they will give up?

[Archive]

Posted By: sagard

I'd say trading off with the max bid works very well if your going up against me. Maybe I'll take something home tonight.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc S.

A word of caution. There are a small number of auction houses with whom I would never place a max bid due to concerns of being exploited. I think duking it out in the after-hours is perhaps the safest thing...

I've tried Leon's strategy of an initial blocking bid many a times in different auction houses. It has not been successful for me yet. Not sure why, as I always put an initial blocking bid in at more than I thought the card(s) were worth. But I'm inevitably outbid. The one advantage of a blocking strategy is that you more acutely define your competition. Rather than a handful of deep pockets, it could be one deep pocket. If you lose either way, it may not matter. But competing against one whale sure sounds a lit better than a herd of them.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

Marc - I'm new to the big auction house game; would you mind sharing with me (offline if need be) the short list of houses you suspect of shilling? Obviously, Barry Sloate isn't one of them

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

This is the first I have looked at this thread, and I wish to comment.

First off Matt, thank you for the kind words.

Second, Al Simeone, I don't know you from Adam, since you have never even registered for my auction. But I resent your claim that every auction house is untrustworthy and runs up ceiling bids. If you have any problem with what I said, please call me directly and we can discuss. Thank you.

[Archive]

Posted By: andy becker

different strategies for different situations. in leon's case above that worked for him and ultimately that's all that matters.

i am more inclined to let the bidding go where it may and then decide if i wish to go further. sometimes i win and sometimes i loose. BUT, i never pay more than i am comfortable with paying. i, too, have paid some record prices.

barry,
the fact that you "don't know al from adam" doesn't mean anything.....other than he didn't register for YOUR auction (how dare you al ).
what a pompous statement.

i, too, trust no auction house.....NONE. not even you barry, though your reputation is exemplary. i have never left a ceiling bid, nor will i.....that's just my nature. and i don't think that makes me a bad person, it's my choice.

this is another case of an infrequent poster being rough-road into not posting. shame on us.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

Andy - I think Barry was well within his right to defend a sweeping accusation against all auction houses. I don't know what you do for a living, but if you were a lawyer, how would you respond to someone who doesn't know you saying all layers are shysters? You would tell him that if he has never met you, what right does he have to say that about you? That's all Barry did.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Andy- not leaving a ceiling bid is pefectly fine, as there are many other bidding strategies. I have no problem with that.

But when someone makes a blanket statement that all auction houses run up ceiling bids, which creates the stereotype that all dealers are crooked, that directly hurts my business.

[Archive]

Posted By: Greg Theberge

For Non-ebay houses, the one thing you always have to be aware of is the bid increment factor once an item gets beyond a specific bid. Sometimes this can be quite substantial. If you have a maximum you are willing to pay for an item, I find it's necessary to get that maximum bid placed fairly early to hold that slot, rather than trying to place that bid at the last minute. All of a sudden, you may find that the next bid increment can be substantially higher than the last bid you placed, even though it was the closest underbid. I don't know if that came out right...

By the way, Leon, those are absolutely gorgeous cards. Looks like folks had a tough time differentiating between "your" and "you're" even back then

[Archive]

Posted By: andy becker

"sweeping accusation"....what am i not reading?

al stated: "I myself wouldnt ever put a "topper" bid in on any auction because quite frankly I dont trust any of them either. As we have seen employes with knowledge of the bids can be very dangerous to your wallet! Auction houses dont make clients and themselves money when they know there is more to be made on an item!! And if people dont believe it happens as the old phrase goes I have a nice bridge for sale in Brooklyn!!"

he didn't say all auction houses run a crooked business, nor did he imply that. he said that he knows ceiling bids get run up. he's right.

be it on ebay, or a large auction house. it happens.

for the record, i am in pork processing and if someone made a statement that all food processors are crooks then i would let that go in one ear and out the other. are there crooks in every business? probably.
is everyone welcome to their opinion? yes.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Andy,
Thankyou for that statement I to believe that was a very Pompous statement also. I never singled out any one house.
Barry as for you First let me say In your case I believe that your auction is probably one of the best in terms of fair treatment of its customer.
Maybe I should clarify all to (most) there are many things that go on behind the seens that we dont even know about and that my friend is the way of the world.
Yes Barry you dont know me from adam nor do I know you but to single me out just because you got your nose in a twist because Im no registered in your auction or because I voiced MY OPINION about auction houses is a bit childish.
I think you should start a post and ask how many people feel the way I feel about this or feel the way you feel. I think its been covered before.Then you can go and defend the industry as you see fit. For the record Im registered with Mastros, REA,HUNT,HAKES,And A few others I cant think of. As for yours no I not Registered because I really dont collect Pre War cards I collect more in the memorabilia end. I only was asking leon a question about his bid stragety if that is what works for him good for leon! IN MY OPINION I thought he might have saved himself alot of money doing it a different way. Im sorry if I hurt you in some way but As you are intitled to your opinion I sir Am also intitled to mine. Thats why we live in the USA.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Al- thanks for the response and let's just let it slide. I guess it just touched a raw nerve. No big deal.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

Maybe, as Al suggests, you could formulate a New Poll on this issue. The Gretzky Wagner Poll is getting a little stale.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I have also noticed that sellers not allowing Paypal usually have fewer
bidders and you get more of an opportunity of getting a really
great card for under book.

(a different) matt

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry,
Not a problem at all. My intent wasnot to start a war about auction houses and running up items it was about the context of this post Strategy. Maybe I also should clarify my position also. Its not that I dont trust all I will re phrase and say I dont trust most. Having just completed a large sale of a part of my collection in the REA auction when I called Rob to handle it its was not because I made a quick decision I based my decision on "trust". In my opinion I watched Rob "grow up" so to speak as a person with character who is trying to do the right thing as moving forward in an attempt to clean up this industry so to speak. I.E. honest auto bid , and just going out there and showing that HIS company is at least trying to make a difference. I had alot to lose also as my sale reached into the mid 5 figure area. Might have I gotten more out of my items from another auction house (maybe) I may never know but based on MY principals I felt he was the right house and person to handle my items. You (Barry) also seem (in my opinion) to be a man of up standing character based upon what I have read in many of the posts and how many of the people on this board hold you in how they think of you.
But as you know you have to earn that trust it doesnt come over night.Now "not knowing you from adam" I might take awhile for me to trust you. But based on what I have read and seeing how people think of you If I had a large card collection in pre war I would probably consider you to handle it Based on MY principals. Sorry I touched a nerve with you but in the same token you touched a nerve with me .As Peter Cs Post about First ammendment DA DA DA went out of control and ended up going on about songs anyone who knows me will tell you there is one good song in there It goes "AND I DONT BACK DOWN AND I STAND MY GROUND"

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Al- I apologize for the phrase "I don't know you" and it was inappropriate. I will even delete it if you prefer.

And thank you for expressing your point clearly. I think sometimes auctioneers all get grouped together, when in fact each one of us is an individual person. So I guess I was expressing my own feelings, perhaps a bit too zealously.

All is fine, and let me know if you want that phrase deleted from my earlier post.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry,
No not at all please leave it there It was your opinion and I always respect that. By the way having won the Oct contest I do now own a graded pre war card! If you would like it for your next auction your more that happy to have it!! LOL

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Al- that was a present from Leon, you should keep it!

But thanks for the offer.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry is an honest guy and probably the only small auction house I would trust not to shill me to the moon. Al is right that the small auction houses are, in my mind, prone to nasty behavior when it comes to shilling (some large houses too as we've all learned as well).

I've learned that placing ceiling bids is just asking for trouble. Why do it? Stay up late! At least with Rob's auction you didn't even have to stay up late -- you could have gone to bed at 8 pm, woken up, had breakfast, gone to the gym -- and the extended bidding was still going on!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- my favorite auctions were the ones that went on all night, because I get up very early and I was able to place my final bids with my morning coffee. The ones that end at 2:00-3:00 AM are murder for me.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

My favorite auctions are ones where the descriptions correctly identify the item(s) being sold.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Agreed. Which is why the 15 or 30 minute rule for individual lots is more user-friendly for the bidding public (though in smaller auctions I don't think it makes a difference due to the fact that the auction won't end too late regardless of the format).

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry,
You are right It was a gift I take back my offer to consign it!!! SORRY LEON LOL
Jeff,
Yes( some) no all small auction houses do it and (some) not all big auction houses do it. Its been a dirty secret for years thats is now just starting to be exposed in the media. Its finally comming to light probably because some very wealthy clients have been burned (so to speak) and have the means to fight it in the legal system. Case in point as whats been happening to a large N.Y. auction house. As Im sure you are aware. As a person who has delt with many auctions and auction houses for anyone to be that niave that this pratice doesnt exist well as the saying goes" one tends to get what one deserves " The only ones who dont know this pratice exists are the Truely honest auctioneers. MAYBE LIKE BARRY!!! Yes I would now say DEFINETELY LIKE BARRY!! see Barry you have already started making me a big believer in you!!! LOL

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Al. Actually, I must be naive because I generally do leave ceiling bids on lots and then go to bed. Now admittedly, I'm not looking to set any world's records, as I buy big lots for resale, so I don't leave crazy bids.

Now the question is, have I ever been run up? I don't know. I do win some lots below my max, so I have to say I feel comfortable leaving a little bit of a ceiling (an extra bump or two at most).

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry,
Maybe part of this is what you said you re sell alot of the lots you bid on. There for your topper or ceiling bids may not be that high to start with. Your a business man and being a business man you know how far you are willing to go. I have studied this problem for years about bids and how to bid. Here is a good topic for this board to ponder. With the onset of computers being now a big part of the auction industry would you say that there is a possiblity that each auction house might have software that profiles your bidding history ? And the bidding history of every client? I.E. How you bid ,when you bid, early ,late,right at the end,never at the end, what you bid on Cards,pins,books,equipment etc. Takes all this information and compiles a list of maybe who is going to bid and how likely that item is going to hit what they think it will? Lets say once the bid is placed on that item the computer generates a profile on you to see if you are likely a collector,dealer,re seller,and how likely you would be willing to go? Also for arguement sake do you think that an auction house looks at lets say an item that doesnt have any bids on it but but knows thru its software that that item has been looked at lets say 100 times but still has no bids due to peoples "bidding Strateges" do you think that there might be a possiblity that the may just place a bid based on the fact that THEY can see the" traffic pattern" on the item where you cant. For the sake of arguement do you think that might just happen. Also do you think that maybe there is a possiblity that some of these auction houses share information on you much the same way casinos might share info on you if you were a prospective "whale" I.E. large bidder with money!At least ebay has a counter at the bottom to tell you how many people at least looked at the auction. A seller has the right to at least leave it on or turn it off. A great case in point is ebay itself. There computers are so powerful they know exactly what everyone bids on what they bid on if they sell more ,buy more. etc.etc. So my question is if you answered yes to any of the above hypothetical questions I asked then do you think there is a possiblity the industry needs a serious looking into? Sometimes you really have to think outside the box to draw the right conclusion.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

Al - interesting stuff. I think everything you mentioned is cause for concern and certainly if an auction house was known to be unscrupulous, they probably would be involved in such nefarious activity. However, just because there is great opportunity for corruption doesn't mean it exists and hence your point of oversight is well received, because without it, all we have are people staring over the table cock-eyed at each other.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Thanks Matt,
I think if this opens up someones mind to a possiblity that it does exist then one can at least draw a conclusion that things may not always appear to be so apple pie and roses in this industry!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Al- you bring up a host of issues.

First of all, my software does allow me to see who has bid and whether any ceiling bids have been placed. Of course when I ran telephone auctions everybody had to leave their bids with me including maximums. So in that sense, my auction is not like ebay, where you do not know any of the ceilings at all.

Yet I get dozens of ceiling bids throughout every auction. Obviously, that is done based on the comfort level the bidder has leaving one. I guess any auction is only as secure as the people running it.

With regard to your other questions, such as do auction houses have profiles on bidders or share information with other auction houses, I have no idea. I think every seller in any business gets to know his customers, and I suppose I do know who bids conservatively and who bids aggressively. But I don't know of any software that tracks this information. If you've done business with somebody over the years you get to know something about him.

Now if all your questions are leading to an obvious conclusion, which is: can auction houses be trusted, my answer is I am only privy to what goes on in my own. No other auction house shows me their books or shares confidential information. I know stuff goes on, but exactly what that stuff is is open to conjecture.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry,
You hit part of the problem on the head you said "your auction is only as secure as the people who run it" I will them ask you a few questions (you dont have to answer all of them if you dont want to)
1 I have now come to the conclusion that YOU are and honest man but do you think that all houses in your opinion run it like you do?
2 How many people do you have working for you?And that help you with your auction and have knowledge about how your customers bids other than yourself.
3 If you do have workers or helpers are they allowed to bid in your auctions?
4 If the answer is yes then would you be willing to lets say highlite the auctions in your completed listings that these auctions were bid on or won by an employee of your company?
5 If a client felt in his opinion that lets say he was "shilled up" on a card in your auction would you take the card back and re auction it or would you make him honor his bid.
Im asking this just for the sake that you dont really get a chance to get a straight answer from someone who owns an auction house or auction site. But now feeling that YOU will answer my questions with an honest answer I feel this will give the "lay man" a feel for how the system works.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I'd be happy to answer them all:

1) I think that honesty varies from auction to auction. As I said earlier in this thread, each auctioneer has his own personality and ethics.
2) My wife and I do the whole thing, and she only helps me with computer issues. Basically, I put the entire auction together myself. I have a catalog designer, printer, and software designer, but their work is done before the auction begins.
3) I have no helpers on auction night. When I had phone auctions I would ask a friend to help me answer the phones, but he was not an active collector, so he never placed a bid.
4) This one is not applicable
5) All bidders must honor their bids and pay for their lots. Nobody has ever said to me they think they were shilled.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Barry,
I thankyou for your Honesty! You are probably one of the last of a dying breed !! (In my opinion) I would love to hear how many of the other companies would like to answer my questions. I would love to hear some other input from some more of the members on the hypothetical questions I posed earlier on the post.
Barry a great conservation on the subject! Thankyou for being honest and may all your auctions bring you wealth and joy!!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Wealth and joy might be a little too much to ask for.

Jim C. once posed a tough set of questions for all the big auction houses, but it didn't go over too well.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

The last two nights I tried the old "enter a ceiling (maximum) bid at a figure that is the most you want to pay for the cards and stand back and let the chips fall where they may" strategy that Eric mentioned.
I ended up taking an "0fer" in the Huggins and Scott auctions When vg E94 commons start going for around $600 with the "juice" it is time to punt. Oh well, you win some, you lose some...

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Well JOY anyway!!! I guess I missed that post I will have to look for it!