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  #1  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:27 PM
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Posted By: Anthony N.

Hoping you guys (and Joann) can offer up some opinions on a situation I'm involved with.

I listed a card for a friend on ebay a few months ago. It had been a PSA 6, he cracked it out because he thought it was nicer, never resubmitted it, and then sent it to me to sell for him. I submitted it to SGC and it came back a 40.
I listed it on ebay with a BIN a bit below vcp for a 40, and it was immediately hit by someone and paid for.
Tonite he wrote me and said that he'd submitted it to PSA and it came back trimmed, and he wanted his money back.
I wrote and said I'd be more than happy to buy it back, assuming it was still in the SGC holder. He wrote that he'd cracked it out but that didn't matter, he was a "big time dealer/collector" (even though I'd never heard of him or seen him on any of the boards, Nationals, Old Cardboard, ebay, etc) and PSA said it was no good.

I'm happy to stand behind anything I sell, but my question is should I be expected to when the card was cracked out? I'm quite sure if PSA had given it a 7 I would not have had a share in the profits, and as its been about 3 months also have concerns about the timeliness of the issue.

I did not represent the card as anything other than an SGC 40 that had once been a PSA 6. I made no claims or guarantees other than the statement of provenance.

Thoughts?

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  #2  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:36 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Anthony, at worst you'd be required to refund his money only if the card came back in the form in which you sent it to him. At best I think you could tell him to pound sand; it's not like you sold him a card in a PRO holder.

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  #3  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:41 PM
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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Anthony,
Very simple. Once he cracked that card out of it's holder "IT'S HIS"......
You have absolutely no responsibility to that card anymore once he tampered
with it. End of story!!!!!!!!

Tony A.

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  #4  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:41 PM
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Posted By: David McDonald

More often than not eBay sellers state "no returns on graded cards" so when I buy a card I just take that as a given. Once he cracked out the card he essentially damaged the goods and eliminated any recourse with the grading companies. Throw in the three months delay and I would venture that his case has no merit (I am not an attorney but I participate on a chat group that has lawyers). Tell him no way Jose!

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  #5  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:46 PM
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Posted By: dennis

no,,maybe the big timer trimmed it. it was graded you should not take it back.

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  #6  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:50 PM
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Posted By: Ken McMillan

You break it, you buy it. If he wants to resubmit it to SGC to get it back in a SGC holder, then you might talk. As to the big time dealer/ collector, he is blowing smoke up the orifice where the sun don't shine. The thing that he needs to remember is that it cost you something to get the card graded (grading fees, postage, and the charges for SGC to send the cards back to you). This is the reason why he would need to pay to get the card back in a SGC holder. Just a thought.



Kmac

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  #7  
Old 01-31-2009, 09:55 PM
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Posted By: Mike

If both SGC and PSA have previously graded the card as not being trimmed, the card was obviously most-likely trimmed after it was cracked. When you contact the guy, use the Seinfeld episode of George trying to return a book to the bookstore after he had read it in the bathroom as the basis of your refusal.

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  #8  
Old 01-31-2009, 10:01 PM
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Posted By: Michael Steele

Obviously this buyer thought the same thing as the original owner of this card when it was a PSA 6. That is, it should grade higher and he decided to play the grading game. My vote is no refund. He played the game and lost. He can continue playing the game if desired. From my standpoint, I would be embarrased after 3 months to demand a refund. Big time collector/dealer or not.

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  #9  
Old 01-31-2009, 10:02 PM
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Posted By: Brian T.

I've got to admit that I am of the same opinion as the others. In my mind, you should only have to refund his money if he was able to return the graded card in the condition in which he received it. I am reminded of a common store policy, "You break it, you buy it." In this case, perhaps "you break it open, you own it." is more appropriate.

I would politely state that you cannot be expected to repurchase a card that has been broken out of the slab since you now have no assurance that you are even getting back the same card - let alone in the same condition. What proof could be offered that he did not damage the card breaking it out, trim it prior to submitting it, or even swap it out? In short, not returning in the same condition (inside sealed SGC 40 slab) = no refund, IMHO.

Brian T.

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  #10  
Old 01-31-2009, 10:29 PM
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Posted By: quan

+1 on brian t's post...

it's never happened to me but i hate it when someone pulls out the "i'm a big collector/dealer/long time hobbyist" card to get preferential treatment on a problem...and i'm supposed to impressed because??? i try to treat everyone fairly and equally depending on the situation, no matter who you are.

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  #11  
Old 02-01-2009, 05:00 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm with the consensus- once he cracks it out of the holder it's his card. Because the only way you can even consider a refund is if he returns it exactly the way he got it, something that is no longer possible. PSA is only rendering an opinion, and it could be wrong.

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  #12  
Old 02-01-2009, 05:10 AM
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Posted By: Bobby I.

Did you list any refund policy when listing the card? If you said no refunds on graded cards there is no question you have no culpability. Secondly, its was a third party graded card, you had no involvement in the grading process therefore not your problem. Third, he chose to break it out of the holder and submit it to a different grading service trying to reap benefit from what he perceived to be a bargain purchase, it thereby has been modified and again not your problem. Lastly, how do you know he didn't have a duplicate of the card he bought from you and is trying to pull a scam by claiming the other card ws the one purchased from you. I wouldn't give any of this a second thought.

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  #13  
Old 02-01-2009, 05:36 AM
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Posted By: Steve Murray

This is a no-brainer. The card has been graded twice. It passed muster. He chose to crack it out and lose all protection afforded by the TPG. Big time dealer should know that.

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  #14  
Old 02-01-2009, 08:24 AM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Simple solution...





When the buyer sends the card back in an SGC 40 holder, that's when you give him a FULL refund. That's what he bought, that's what he should send back for a refund, he can't send less.



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  #15  
Old 02-01-2009, 08:29 AM
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Posted By: leon

Just as every single person has said, NO, you should not have to refund unless it's returned in the same holder. He played the game and lost. AND if he is a big time dealer that is all of the more reason to not take the return. He should know better. Point him to this thread and let him debate it:) best regards

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  #16  
Old 02-01-2009, 08:33 AM
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Posted By: Joe D.

no way. no refund.


he cracked it out?

you break it you bought it.

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  #17  
Old 02-01-2009, 08:52 AM
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Posted By: Anthony N.

Thanks for the responses guys- I wanted to make sure I wasn't off base in my refusal to refund him for the now raw card.
Bobby , I've never bothered with a refund policy, since I always figured if the buyer was reasonable and wasn't happy I'd just refund the purchase. It's never been an issue, and would not be here had it not been cracked out.
I appreciate all the responses, and to the person that did some detective work on the buyer I'm incredibly impressed!

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  #18  
Old 02-01-2009, 09:07 AM
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Posted By: Steve

In no way shape or form are you obligated to refund this guy.

Once he decided to crack and resubmit it became his.

I'd ask him why he simply did not attempt to cross it.

I can't believe the chutzpah of some people.

Who cares if he is a big time collector/dealer.

If he is he should know better.

Steve

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  #19  
Old 02-01-2009, 01:39 PM
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Posted By: Al

I'm with the "you crack it you own it" voices. He would have to return the card in the condition it was sent to him...case closed. I wouldn't give this another thought. Sounds fishy to me anyway, like he had another card waiting in the wings to scam you.

Even if the buyer contacts eBay, your position is the card is no longer in the condition it was sent to and received by the buyer. If he was such a big time dealer, he should know better.

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  #20  
Old 02-01-2009, 01:47 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Set me apart from the crack it own it guys...


If the buyer gets it reslabbed in an SGC holder graded as it was or better, then you have to refund upon return. So it isn't once broken open then no refund ever. If it is restored to its original slabbed state, then it is refund time.

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  #21  
Old 02-01-2009, 02:34 PM
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Posted By: Brian McQueen


I think Frank basically typed the same response I was about to. I agree with most everyone here, however if the buyer can succeed in getting the card reholdered in the SGC 40 holder, then I would consider giving him a refund at that point. He did indeed break it out, but if getting a refund from you means that much to him, have him send it to SGC for a regrade. Since he's such a big dealer type, chances are, he's going to be sending SGC some cards to grade in the upcoming weeks anyhow.

But yeah, you sold him a card in an SGC 40 holder. If he wants a refund, that is what he should return to you before you send him a check. Any store out there would require that you return an item in the same condition that you purchased it in originally if you were wanting your money back. This should be no different.

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  #22  
Old 02-01-2009, 03:53 PM
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Posted By: barry arnold

Anthony,
i'm late as always but must say' No Refund' with the other sage board members.
if he think he's a 'big wheel', then just let him know that your buds here
think that you're the whole carriage--- sorry for the bit antiquated analogy but I am unapologetically a bit antiquated.
all the best, anthony

Barry

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  #23  
Old 02-01-2009, 04:17 PM
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Posted By: Steve


"If the buyer gets it reslabbed in an SGC holder graded as it was or better, then you have to refund upon return."



A seller does not 'have' to do anything.


How much time are you willing to allow someone to have your card?

Steve

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  #24  
Old 02-01-2009, 04:32 PM
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Posted By: Mike

I'd love to hear about the detective work done on the buyer that was referenced earlier.

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  #25  
Old 02-01-2009, 04:58 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Any big time dealer or collector does not need to announce that he/she is one. I don't know of any big time dealer or collector who would break a card out of a holder and expect to return it. I wonder if this big time dealer permits his buyers to break open holders and then return cards if they are not happy with the grade. I am guessing not. This is the type of collector that should be on every ebay seller's block list.

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  #26  
Old 02-02-2009, 05:45 AM
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Posted By: boxingcardman

Go
Piss
Up
A
Rope

That's what you tell him. Only a fool would think he could crack out a card and then return it.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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  #27  
Old 02-02-2009, 12:24 PM
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Posted By: Red

Send the big time dealer/collector a link to this thread. Maybe he will recognize some of the names and take the opinions of what he's trying to do under consideration.

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  #28  
Old 02-02-2009, 06:09 PM
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Posted By: Andrew S.

Anthony, hope you can give us the clown's ID so we can block him from bidding on our items. Thanks.

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  #29  
Old 02-03-2009, 02:11 AM
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Posted By: Bilko G

tell him hes "burnt". In all seriousness did he even prove that it was the same card? Like show a pic of the broken SGC case and the lose flip?

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  #30  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:49 PM
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Posted By: Cory Lau

I agree with everyone else... No refund on a cracked out card... No way to insure you didn't get the switch..

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  #31  
Old 02-05-2009, 01:44 PM
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Posted By: Steve

Yeah but if he somehow gets it back into an SGC slab Anthony
has to refund him.

Regardless of the amount of time that elapses.

wink.gif

Steve

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  #32  
Old 02-05-2009, 01:51 PM
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Posted By: Anthony S.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMoalQ9A18

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  #33  
Old 02-05-2009, 03:07 PM
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Posted By: JimB

What everybody else said. Forget about it.

It seems he was not even proposing to return all that he bought. He bought a card in an SGC 40 holder and wants to return it (assuming it is the same card) without the holder. Does that mean you should be responsible for resubmission fees when he cracked it out? This big time collector/dealer is out to lunch. I would send him the link to this thread.
JimB

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