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#1
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Brendan
I'm sure many of you received this email from REA. The issue of card doctoring is nothing new, but I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are on what REA said? Reprinted below: |
#2
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Steve Dawson
That's why I don't collect vintage cards in the "super grades". I'm perfectly happy with my PSA 4's and below |
#3
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
In the email, REA states that we (collectors, dealers, etc) should not be turning a blind eye to this. The email discusses a card that was previously sold by REA, doctored, sold again, and then consigned by a new owner (who was then informed that the card had been doctored). It seems that the card doctor in such cases can be determined with reasonable certainty by simply tracing the sales. My question then is why, if we are not to turn a blind eye, are names not being named? |
#4
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
I like REA even more now. |
#5
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Paul
I can understand for a variety of reasons (most of them legal) why REA would not want to name names. And I do appreciate how far they have already gone to publicize this problem. But I hope they go one step further and describe generically the types of problems they have seen in re-holdered cards. I would like to know, for example, if we are just talking about a dog-eared corner that has been folded back into its original position, or if we are talking about the addition of ink and other very serious alternations. Others may feel it doesn't matter - an alteration is an alteration. But I think many of us would like to know how far this has really gone. |
#6
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Joann
First, I am a big, big fan of REA and how they conduct themselves and their auctions. |
#7
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: ScottIngold
"has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards." |
#8
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JimCrandell
Scott, |
#9
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: T E
or provide links to visual info or whatever. Grading companies involved? Auction houses? |
#10
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: ScottIngold
Jim, |
#11
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JimCrandell
Not grading companies--auction houses--or should I say one auction house in particular. |
#12
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JimCrandell
Scott, |
#13
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
What I would like to see at a minimum (if they arent going to name names) is the scans of the cards in question. |
#14
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Truth may be a defense, but proving the truth may not be so easy. |
#15
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: John Kalafarski
I wonder who is the grading company in league with the auction house? I would bet that it is not SGC and most likely not PSA (although I have recently spied a PSA card that was obviously trimmed in a recent auction). |
#16
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
where did it say anything about a grading company dealing in altered cards? |
#17
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JimCrandell
John, |
#18
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: davidcycleback
Mastro has had items 'cleaned' for their auctions, there's no secret about that. |
#19
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: David Smith
Thanks REA for taking a first step in addressing this problem!! |
#20
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Julie Vognar
Not many of my--I think it was 78--lots in the last REA auction contained doctored cards, but I was AMAZED at the ones that were! (any doctored cards that were sold were clearly marked as such). I think they were all sold in groups of doctored cards, not mixed in with un-doctored ones. Two things astonished me: |
#21
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: leon
Timing on this email is nice? Coincidence? |
#22
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: warshawlaw
I am more than a little tired of the innuendo and hidden accusations. If REA is going to state for a fact that so and so card is altered, post the images here, post the cert #'s here. If REA claims that employees of an auctioneer are altering cards, post the names and show us the cards. If the accusations are true and can be backed up, it is high time that everyone sounded off like they had a pair. |
#23
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
I agree completely. |
#24
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Couldn't this just be REA's way of acknowledging receipt of the e-mail that was apparently circulated a week ago about Charlie's auction? |
#25
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Once you have the names which are named and the cards which are changed, then what? |
#26
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
Gil, |
#27
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Is it ever fraudulent to sell a graded card? |
#28
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
If someone has doctored a card with the intent to deceive a grading company and then sell the doctored but graded card - yes, absolutely. The fact that a card doctor is able to slip a card past a grading company doesnt "cleanse" the fraudulent act. |
#29
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Well JK, we are not going to try this hypothetical case in this thread. But it would be interesting, I think. However, those with a far greater understanding of the subject than I have may consider various arguements, and that is my intent here. |
#30
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: edacra
The issue of fraud is more in line with laws concerning false advertising. It's hard to prove malice or that the sale was intentional, rather then just an error. Our standards are self governed. There are paper collectibles, such as movie posters, where restoration is considered acceptable though it will effect price. |
#31
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: davidcycleback
If the restoration significantly effects the value and is known to the seller, it is illegal |
#32
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Lee Behrens
REA did not bring this email to the board, a contributor did. I for one applaud them, they seem to be attempting to run the most effecient clean auction house and what do they get for some of there efforts? Skeptism. |
#33
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
If someone genuinely wants to make a difference, it is going to take more than vague and imprecise allegations against nameless persons and cliches such as "buy the card not the holder." Indeed, absent more precision, the author could be saying nothing more than in his opinion someone did something to a card that he considers alteration but the vast majority of us would not. See the earlier thread re another upcoming auction, which clearly underscored this issue. Well-intentioned or not, especially in light of the timing, it gives the appearance of self-promotion (you can trust my cards but not others). Like Adam and others, I too would like to know more specifics, but the skeptic in me thinks they will not be forthcoming. |
#34
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: JK
That's the problem with people in this hobby who are "in the know" - they all claim to know who is doctoring cards but refuse to name names - so it leaves those of us who are less informed twisting in the wind and hoping that the card we just spent good money on wasnt doctored. |
#35
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Dylan
It would be cool if someone could keep a database of suspect cards that have been seen moving from holder to holder. It would be real educational actually to be able to study these cards. For one thing to be able to tell just what these card doctors are up to, and also to see keep the grading companies in check. |
#36
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Josh Adams
JK, |
#37
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Robert Lifson
For those who are unhappy that REA is not naming names, there are legal issues that make this not desirable. We are not interested in lawsuits, and are operating in what we think is the most intelligent manner all things considered. If anyone has the interest and financial ability to indemnify REA, REA employees, and me personally from legal action and related legal expenses, we would be happy to name names. We are not interested in being embroiled in legal battles and would prefer to try to continue to try to make a difference in the best way that we think we can. The primary audience for the recent email was not this board, which includes many of the most knowledgeable and active of all collectors. There are thousands of less knowledgeable and active collectors that are on our mailing list who do not read the net54 board. |
#38
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Well, clearly Rob knows who doctored that one particular card... |
#39
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Im back with "then what" |
#40
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: cmoking
I received the scans of the 1933 Goudey Lajoie from Rob Lifson. I am posting it here per his request. |
#41
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: leon
First of all thanks for coming on and clarifying a few things. Now, please show me exactly where "I" said you were referring to Mastro Auctions. Nothing personal but you are wrong. You are obviously defensive...but that is no crime and I still appreciate your knowledge. I was in fact, insinuating, about the many auctions running right now. Just as you question motives so do I. This board is great for that issue. I get my motives questioned, you get yours, and everyone else in our hobby gets theirs questioned too. No one is above reproach. I was not pointing to any "one" company , on purpose. You did that. kindest regards |
#42
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Chad
Was that card bleached and pressed? It's hard to tell in the after scan how much the crease is flattened. I'll assume it is the same card, but from the scans it's hard to find marks consistent between the two. This is going to be interesting, I think. Looking forward to what you guys think about it. |
#43
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
or Rob......why did the card get the MK qualifier from PSA? I don't see anything immediately on the front.......... |
#44
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: cmoking
All I did was post the scans I received via email. Other than that, I know as much as anyone else on the board |
#45
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: ScottIngold
Well..... Since Rob was obviously defensive about Maestro. Does this mean there is something shady going on there ? |
#46
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: edacra
I'm not of the mindset that REA should name names - but will relate (for the umpteempth time) the story of the autograph dealer busted by the feds who operated for years and years at the front of every major show in the country, and through scd advertising. |
#47
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: cmoking
Rob just sent me the back scan to post here: |
#48
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
crystal clear now.......... |
#49
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I am not an expert... |
#50
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Interesting email from REA
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
If Rob is so terrified of being sued for providing names then why put out a 500 word essay in two paragraphs on what he is noticing and what he is doing about it? I think it is admirable that he is doing it but why not just do it behind the scenes, as he has been doing, and conduct his auctions as he sees fit? Making a pronouncement only rattles the cages of collectors and leaves them with more questions, and uneasiness. |
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