1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Pat— Have there been editions subsequent to that one ?

I haven't seen any Al, I just looked on amazon and ebay and that's the most
recent edition I could find.

[ALR-bishop]

The first time I was required to either edit a comment or include my name involved a post in pre war opining that Don Fluckinger had messed up the first Standard Catalog he handled after Bob’s retirement 😊

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have not kept my oldest versions of the Standard Catalog but do keep the 2011 issue because it was the last one that included post 80 issues. As Ted mentions it does list it as a 49 issue. My newest Catalog is 2014, which may have been the last print edition, edited by Tom Bartsch. It also lists it as 49

I lost a good friend and and hobby lost a great resource when Bob Lemke passed

Hi Al
You and I have the same Standard Catalog editions (2011 and 2014). Here is the Copyright date and the 1949 LEAF listing in the 2011 issue (the 2014 edition is exactly
the same....1949 LEAF.

.




Furthermore, here is the Beckett 1998 edition, which confirms the information I provided in Post #342 in this thread.

.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jim Beckett contacted me in 1997 regarding the 1949 LEAF set. Jim started identifying this set as a 1949 issue in
his 1998 BECKETT Baseball Card Price Guide.

Prior to 1998, Beckett listed this set as a 1948/1949 issue.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Al
You and I have the same Standard Catalog editions (2011 and 2014). Here is the Copyright date and the 1949 LEAF listing in the 2011 issue (the 2014 edition is exactly
the same....1949 LEAF. . . .

Furthermore, here is the Beckett 1998 edition, which confirms the information I provided in Post #342 in this thread. . . .

Ted, there is no question about many miscalling the issue date of the Leaf set as 1948 and not 1949, nor of the efforts you have undertaken to try to straighten it out since the last century.

My question here in this Bond Bread thread is, "What do any of us do about what OldCardboard says about "1947 D305 Bond Bread" cards ( https://oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003 ) and what Sports Collector's Digest now says in its August 2, 2020 edition about the same cards ( https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ines-1947-set/ )?

[tedzan]

OK guys,

Al Richter and I have provided sufficient evidence with Jim Beckett's and Bob Lemke's BB card publications that confirm the 1949 LEAF date has been listed
in their Catalogs as far back as 1998.
Furthermore, these publications also confirm the LEAF HOFer Premiums as a 1949 issue even before 1998. And, it was known back then that the LEAF cards
and HOFer Premiums were issued in the same vendor boxes. PSA and SGC could have corrected their egregious mistakes at least 22 years ago.


Here is my 2005 Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards (by Bob Lemke).

.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Al and I have provided sufficient evidence with Jim Beckett's and Bob Lemke's BB card publications that confirm the 1949 LEAF date has been the standard since 1998.

Today, PSA in the "Facts" section of its website ( https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/ba.../1948-leaf/144 ) states:

"The 1948 Leaf Baseball set consists of 98 cards, each 2-3/8" by 2-7/8". Key athletes include Joe DiMaggio (#1), Babe Ruth (#3), and Stan Musial (#4). The set is also anchored by diamond heroes Luke Appling, Larry Doby, Bobby Doerr, Bob Feller, George Kell, Ted Kluszewski, Hal Newhouser, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, Phil Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter, Warren Spahn and Ted Williams, as well an evocative tribute to Honus Wagner (#70). Although only 98 entries were produced for the Leaf set, its cards actual numbers spanned between 1 and 168. The Leaf baseball production was the first major issue of its type to use skip-numbering, wherein the cards' consecutively numbered entries when fully assembled and complete failed to yield a correspondingly complete run of card numbers. Forty-nine cards are considered "Short Prints," including such lesser players as Johnny Wyrostek and Eddie Joost. Among the most desirable pieces is an error card - #102 Gene Hermanski – that exists without the letter "i" in his last name. This card is among the famous and sought-after of all postwar error cards, as are the Full Sleeve (standard) and Short Sleeve (error) versions of Cliff Aberson's card, #136."


According to its website, to date, PSA has graded some 25,724 cards as "1948 Leaf," including some 1,362 Jackie Robinson's.

You would think that one of the owners of these more than one thousand Jackie Robinson cards would have asked PSA to correctly attribute the card. Or is the apparent failure to ask for a correction more driven by a fear the card may lose value because they are not a "rookie" card?

Mike

[Exhibitman]

Meanwhile the portrait card is catching up to the Leaf card, priced to condition:

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Meanwhile the portrait card is catching up to the Leaf card, priced to condition:

The portrait card is far better looking than the leaf, the portrait is exceptional and depicts the true robinson. Vastly under-valued card in comparison to the leaf especially figuring in the much lower pop. Might not be the most popular (yet) but it will catch up and likely pass the leaf over time.

[Mike Eisenbath]

Gentlemen, I respect your knowledge and opinions very much, so I'd like to ask your advice. I have a strong emotional affinity for Stan Musial. I'd really like to own a 1947 Bond Bread Musial. A ROUNDED-CORNERS Musial, of course. But I'm suspect of a couple I've seen that they could be altered versions of a squared-corners one. Is there history of this happening? With PSA not touching those cards, I find only SGC-graded cards. Should I trust completely those cards are legit? If I look at a raw card, is there a giveaway on alteration? Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by investinrookies

The portrait card is far better looking than the leaf, the portrait is exceptional and depicts the true robinson. Vastly under-valued card in comparison to the leaf especially figuring in the much lower pop. Might not be the most popular (yet) but it will catch up and likely pass the leaf over time.

Was that last week's price? Prices have gone up a lot more since. Here's a scan of a card I found on eBay today (08/31/2020):



Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost?

Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5.

The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2).

Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another.

At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim.

PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded.

The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded.

And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Mike Eisenbath

Gentlemen, I respect your knowledge and opinions very much, so I'd like to ask your advice. I have a strong emotional affinity for Stan Musial. I'd really like to own a 1947 Bond Bread Musial. A ROUNDED-CORNERS Musial, of course. But I'm suspect of a couple I've seen that they could be altered versions of a squared-corners one. Is there history of this happening? With PSA not touching those cards, I find only SGC-graded cards. Should I trust completely those cards are legit? If I look at a raw card, is there a giveaway on alteration? Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

The "rounded-corners" are not exactly round, but were die-cut and can generally appear suspect because of the crude nature of the die-cutting. At the moment, not too many of the "squared-corners" have been trimmed to look as if they are "rounded" ones. For the moment, that should not be your biggest concern.

The real issue is whether the card is an actual Bond Bread package insert card or whether it is a virtually identical lookalike from the "rounded-corner" Sport Star Subjects set.

Those participating in this thread have not come to a consensus as to the date of issue of the Sport Star Subjects set. A few doubt whether the Sport Star Subjects set ever existed with "rounded-corners."

If you see a Musial card you like, take it on its face value. I am of the opinion that the very high grade Stan Musial cards available today (whether graded or not) are generally not Bond Bread cards but are from the round-corner Sport Star Subjects set.

Mike

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Was that last week's price? Prices have gone up a lot more since. Here's a scan of a card I found on eBay today (08/31/2020):



Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost?

Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5.

The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2).

Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another.

At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim.

PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded.

The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded.

And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them.

half a million for a PSA 8?
your gonna have to elaborate on that logic? If that's the case these beaters are a steal at current prices

[Exhibitman]

I dunno about the market stuff, I just know that the recent research on this very site proved that the portrait w/facsimile sig was indeed a 1947 issue handed out in advance of the others. It also happens to be a very nice looking card. it also was (emphasis on the past tense) an affordable card in the lower grades at least. Is a card in a high numbered slab worth a ton? Find one, auction one, and let's see where it lands. Should it supplant the FUGLY 49 Leaf as the top dog Robinson card? Who knows? The Leaf is iconic in the Hobby; an earlier, nicer card may be the RC but at this point it is not going to diminish the allure of the iconic Leaf. Facts are for little people, not icons. If we have to explain why this card is better than the Leaf the fight is already lost.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by investinrookies

half a million for a PSA 8?
your gonna have to elaborate on that logic? If that's the case these beaters are a steal at current prices

In the late 1980's, a contrived rule of thumb was that each increase in grade doubled the price of a graded card. Thus a 2 was worth twice a 1, a 3 worth twice a 2 (4 times a 1), a 4 twice a 3 (8 times a 1) and so forth. This arbitrary "rule" continues to dictate the asking prices of many graded cards. The rule was applied in conjunction with catalog prices where you considered the MT price for an ungraded card as a graded 5, then doubled it with each grade increase from 5.

For example, the 1988 Standard Catalog prices the 1985 Mark McGwire #42 rookie card at $11 in MT. If that's the value of the card when graded as a 5, then a 6 is "worth" $22, a 7 $44, an 8 $88 and so forth.

During that time, many sought to project what a card would be "worth" by applying the doubling the grade formula to price lists for ungraded cards routinely produced in weekly and monthly baseball card publications. Those seeking to profit from such "insider" information drove the prices further out of proportion.

[Added a little after the original post.]

So to spell it out, if the PSA 1 pictured above is worth the asking price of $3,950 and you apply the old doubling rule, i.e. a 2 would be worth $7,900, a 3 $15,800, and so forth. Thus using this arbitrary rule, an 8 would be worth about half a million.

Today, most of the cards the rule was applied to in the 1980's have falling far short of their expected value.

One should appreciate the fact that the lowest grade possible is a 1. While a dog with both ears can receive a 1, one missing an ear still can get the same 1 grade.

Obviously it was only graded so someone could say, "See, it's authentic." A card that beat up is only grading so it can be sold, and not collected. Anyone buying it should look at it and not at its holder, or they'll fail to recognize the card as merely the space filler it is.

[vansaad]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Was that last week's price? Prices have gone up a lot more since. Here's a scan of a card I found on eBay today (08/31/2020):



Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost?

Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5.

The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2).

Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another.

At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim.

PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded.

The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded.

And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them.

The SGC 8.5 (highest overall graded) is currently at auction with Heritage. Don't suspect it will go for $500k, but already the highest auction price for a Robinson Bond Bread at $27k+ and growing.

[oldeboo]

It looks like decent PSA 1s(without corners missing) are selling in the 1.5-2k range on Ebay. Stating the obvious, but asking price on Ebay means absolutely nothing. I agree that this is an under appreciated and perhaps under valued card though.

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by vansaad

The SGC 8.5 (highest overall graded) is currently at auction with Heritage. Don't suspect it will go for $500k, but already the highest auction price for a Robinson Bond Bread at $27k+ and growing.

interested to see where this one ends...over 31k now continues to climb

[tedzan]

For those of you who are just tuning into this thread.....I am reprising my story here from when I initially posted this thread in April 2009. It appears to me that I may be
the only one on this forum who collected these B/W cards directly from Bond Bread packages. When school started in the Fall of 1947, we (kids) packed our BOND BREAD
cards into our lunch boxes. These cards were really popular in our neighborhood in Hillside, NJ. By trading our cards with each other during lunch period, and sharing info,
we figured out that a complete set comprised of 48 cards (44 baseball and 4 boxers).

Flash forward to 1977......I recovered my original collection of BB, FB, and Non-Sports cards from the attic of my folks home. My Mom and Aunt stored them there while I
was away in the Air Force. Included in this "treasure" were 43 of these BB cards. The 4 boxing cards were missing (probably traded them). Forty-two of the BB cards were
in their original Excellent condition. The Berra was Vg. And, the Jansen was missing. I recall upgrading the Berra card and acquiring the Jansen in the early 1980's.


Finally, in my opinion, the Jackie Robinson card (depicted here) is the legitimate Rookie card of him (in a Major League uniform). The 48 cards in this set were issued in the
Spring/Summer of 1947, prior to any of the cards of the special 13-card issue dedicated to Jackie Robinson.


P.S.....There must be others on this forum who collected these 1947 BOND BREAD cards directly from the bread packages. I don't think I'm the oldest dude on this forum.
So, please chime in here, it would be really appreciated. Perhaps we can compare our experiences from 70 years ago. One thing neat about an "aged mind".....it can recall
events from long ago better than most recent events.









TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Thank you for reposting your story and pictures. I'm just a little younger than you and like you say, it's easier to remember things from 70 years ago than what may have happened over the past 6 months.

Having lived most of my life in Oakland, California (since 8 days old being born in San Francisco), I have no young childhood memories of Bond Bread cards nor much of Major League Baseball. The Giants and Dodgers didn't get to the West Coast until 1958.

We had Sunbeam (Remar) Bread and other cards cards for the Oakland Oaks (Pacific Coast League). In the early 1950's Mother's Cookies inserted cards into cookie packages (and they often came out with cookie stains). To us, the Pacific Coast League was one of the "Big Leagues."

You're Jackie Robinson card is a beaut!

There's much discussion above your last post about the 13 Bond Bread Special Giveaway cards, particularly what many call the set's "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card.

It is my understanding that the "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card was released in 1947 after the Bond Bread package insert card you picture.

Just to be sure everyone is on the same page, is that correct? If so, the Bond Bread package insert card would be Jackie Robinson's first baseball card.

It is true that the first picture of Robinson as a professional player was published as an insert the year earlier in the August 14 or 16, 1946 Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper after his historic meeting with Branch Rickey. That insert is about 10 inches tall and pictures Robinson in his Montreal Royals minor league uniform before he became a "Big Leaguer" in 1947.

Mike

[Leon]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Thank you for reposting your story and pictures. I'm just a little younger than you and like you say, it's easier to remember things from 70 years ago than what may have happened over the past 6 months.

Having lived most of my life in Oakland, California (since 8 days old being born in San Francisco), I have no young childhood memories of Bond Bread cards nor much of Major League Baseball. The Giants and Dodgers didn't get to the West Coast until 1958.

We had Sunbeam (Remar) Bread and other cards cards for the Oakland Oaks (Pacific Coast League). In the early 1950's Mother's Cookies inserted cards into cookie packages (and they often came out with cookie stains). To us, the Pacific Coast League was one of the "Big Leagues."

You're Jackie Robinson card is a beaut!

There's much discussion above your last post about the 13 Bond Bread Special Giveaway cards, particularly what many call the set's "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card.

It is my understanding that the "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card was released in 1947 after the Bond Bread package insert card you picture.

Just to be sure everyone is on the same page, is that correct? If so, the Bond Bread package insert card would be Jackie Robinson's first baseball card.

It is true that the first picture of Robinson as a professional player was published as an insert the year earlier in the August 14 or 16, 1946 Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper after his historic meeting with Branch Rickey. That insert is about 10 inches tall and pictures Robinson in his Montreal Royals minor league uniform before he became a "Big Leaguer" in 1947.

Mike

I like those Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper inserts....

.

[Exhibitman]

Parade Sportives are great. I have a couple of Joe Louis and two of Maurice Richard from early in his career.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Parade Sportives are great. I have a couple of Joe Louis and two of Maurice Richard from early in his career.

Are the Parade Sportives on cardstock or paperstock? Thanks, Mike

[investinrookies]

anyone else notice the golden auction? A PSA 6 Robinson portrait already up to 19k with 4 days left. PWCC just sold a PSA 6 a little over a month ago that went for $15,388. Looks like this card is starting to take off, the question now is not if but when will it catch up to the leaf?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Are the Parade Sportives on cardstock or paperstock? Thanks, Mike

Paper, but higher quality than newsprint, similar to Police Gazette premiums.

[LincolnVT]

Not 1947, but still a cool set. Sorry, was trying to post a picture of my 9 card 1958 Bond Bread "Casey Jones" set, having trouble loading the picture. Maybe tomorrow.

[abctoo]

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Too bad there's no date on it.

I do not remember the exact date but I know I received mine between 90-92. I was a contractor stationed in Thule Greenland AFB and had subscribed to the monthly card subscriptions.

I still have that exact “set” in the holders that they sent them to me in, along with their identifier.

I’d be happy to post pictures but this thread is somewhat dated. I came here years ago while looking for additional info on them. I finally got off my butt and registered this passed weekend.

Cheers,

Butch

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948.
The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Very nice, Ted. I finally picked one up. Shown once before but still apropos...

[Exhibitman]

Mine: