Red Cross - Is it really a Louisiana exclusive?

[G1911]

The Sets

Red Cross issued a number of sets.

T60 Flags - only issuer, larger size versions of selected T59 cards. Unknown date.

T207 - A handful of cards known. c. 1912

T215 - T206 partical clone in 2 types, c. 1910-1913.

T219 - One of 3 brand issuers, in a physically smaller size than the other 2. T219 is a shrunk version of T218, with a selection of 50 prize fighters drawn from all three series. 1911 or later issue.

All 4 are very tough.

In the N card era, 3 other sets were released by Red Cross Long Cut Tobacco, as a Lorillard brand. All 3 of them are physically large cards.

N264 - Actresses in multiple types from multiple lithographers, including Bien.

N266 - Set of 25 pairs of boxers demonstrating different moves and tactics. 1893 copyright date; in 2 varieties with 1 probably from an album or similar

N268 - Set of 25 circus scenes.



The Authorities
The T60 and T219 are usually ignored because they do not picture ballplayers. T215 is typically listed as a Louisiana exclusive in most sources, and cited as such. louisianacards.com lists it as the only Louisiana tobacco issue that wasn’t produced in Louisiana, observing the New Jersey factory number (which was the only evidence for Red Cross, and debunked as the factory does not dictate the geographic distribution of packs to that state). It is regularly and routinely cited as a Louisiana exclusive, like a number of others sets.



The evidence I have found

In the 19th century, Red Cross is one of Lorillard’s brands. Lorillard’s dates to the 1760’s, Red Cross I have not found a record of its registration or debut.

In the 1890’s, around the time of it’s N cards, they have advertisements in the New York area. For example, here’s one advertising the brand in 1895, that appears in a volume from the New York Protective Associations of the 49th District. Clearly, it was not a Louisiana regional brand in its initial form as a Lorillard brand, and I don’t think anyone really claims it was. Most sources saying it is a Louisiana brand address no history, and no cards beyond T207 or T215.


In 1899, Lorillard ceases to be an independent company. Their stock is bought out by the Continental Company, which is really just a front for the ATC, and also has Duke as it’s President. Lorillard continues to operate, like some others owned by the ATC, as a subsidiary instead of having its brands consumed and the corporate shell itself disappearing. https://web.archive.org/web/20100518...6.118.119.html. Red Cross thus becomes a subsidiary of the ATC.

In 1911, of course, American Tobacco is broken up for restraint of trade, and Lorillard becomes independent again. This was evidently a very confusing period for everyone in the industry, as the trust was broken up and production continued throughout this difficult period. On December 9, 1911 the Journal has an ATC ad including Red Cross on its list of brands it is soliciting orders for. One week later, the brand is back on Lorillard’s list of brands it is soliciting orders for. Both ads strongly indicate this brand was not limited to Louisiana in 1911.

In 1916, Red Cross Plug Chewing Tobacco is included in a sample of tobacco brands in a report by the New Hampshire State Board of Health, testing nicotine levels. An unlikely selection if it was a regional brand not available outside Louisiana.
https://www.google.com/books/edition...sq=red%20cross

Conclusion and request
So we can show that in the 1890’s, it wasn’t a Louisiana exclusive brand, nor was it in 1911 when the T219’s were issued and around the T69, T207 and T215 cards time, nor was it several years later. This calls into question the traditional hobby claim, of which I have not been able to find an evidentiary basis for. I am looking for evidence either to support or contradict hobby tradition. Is there evidence this is a Louisiana brand or Louisiana only cards? If so, what is this evidence? I am a collector of the boxing cards only for Red Cross, with no interest in a particular outcome, if the tradition is true or false.

[RCMcKenzie]

I have not associated the N cards with T215. I have not heard that the N226 cards are found in LA.

T215 are so rare, that it's hard to say there are a lot from LA. I have always heard that T215 are found in LA. T219 RC are also rare. I think gfg recently bought a large collection from a guy in LA. I think we both grabbed some from that sale.

For T213, even today, they pop up in LA and East Texas, and were certainly originally offered there.

A board member found more than half the known T207 RC from a guy in Baton Rouge around 2010. REA sold them as the "Louisiana Find".

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I have not associated the N cards with T215. I have not heard that the N226 cards are found in LA.

T215 are so rare, that it's hard to say there are a lot from LA. I have always heard that T215 are found in LA. T219 RC are also rare. I think gfg recently bought a large collection from a guy in LA. I think we both grabbed some from that sale.

For T213, even today, they pop up in LA and East Texas, and were certainly originally offered there.

A board member found more than half the known T207 RC from a guy in Baton Rouge around 2010. REA sold them as the "Louisiana Find".

The N cards were issued by the same brand that issued T215; it's the same Red Cross. I have not heard regional claims for them; in large part I suspect because less claims are made and become hobby fact about sets that do not feature base ball players.

I have no doubt T215 and T219 were issued in Louisiana. I have some doubts they were issued exclusively in Louisiana, or very close to its borders, as is normally said, as it is not a regional branding in 1911 as has always been said. I bought most of the cards from Dave's find that were sold; I think every card you didn't. I know I talked with Dave about it on the phone for awhile but I don't remember the state of origin of the walk-in. May well have been LA.

T213 I have never researched. ATC's brand managers do not own all brands at X factory; so they may or may not be related in the organization.

The T207 may well be a very small geography if even issued properly at all. This one I think is much more likely to be a weird ATC 'rule-breaking' distribution.

[RCMcKenzie]

Call Dave and ask him. Maybe I misunderstood what he said to me.

Here's why I brought up T213 when you talk about Red Cross. T213-2, T215-2, and T214 have blue captions. What do you make of that. Why aren't the Tri-state East Coast old-timers jumping in and saying, "Rob is wrong, Red Cross, Coupon, and Victory with the blue cations were always there at the Philly Show."

[jingram058]

I used to smoke, rather heavily before I went into the Navy and early on in the Navy. My first ship, USS Midway CV-41, I think EVERYONE on that ship smoked, officers and enlisted. Hell, if you didn't smoke, and drink on liberty, you were looked on very carefully. "What's wrong with that guy?" You lived for the "smoking lamp" to be re-lit. It was out throughout the ship while transferring fuel, during unreps alongside an oiler. There were no women on that ship, or any other ship in the Navy other than tenders, at that time, early 1980s. Because of working during flight ops, it was pretty much impossible to get to the mess decks for chow. My healthy diet consisted of coffee, "Cup Noodles" ramen, and cigarettes. The cigarettes of choice were Marlboro reds, 35 cents a pack, $3.50 a carton, in the aft smoke shop or main deck ship's store.

Shift gears to the early 1990s, Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm and Operation Southern Watch in the Persian Gulf on USS Independence CV-62. You could still smoke, but while I was serving on that bird farm, the smoking policy changed from all authorized spaces to only designated places outside, i.e., sponsons. I now saw women occasionally; aviators who would fly out for "car quals" (arrested landings and cat launches) and sometimes have to remain on board overnight. Because I was now a 1st Class Petty Officer, a supervisor, I could now eat regular meals. And I cut way back on my smoking.

Now shift again to USS George Washington CVN-73. A new ship, and women all over the ship. The policy now is the smoking lamp is out. Now I am an officer, LT(jg), and I stand bridge watches and qualify as OOD (officer of the deck) underway. Now I have to set the example. Everything the enlisted people have to do, I have to do, only better. Otherwise, how can they have any real respect? My smoking and drinking days are far behind me. Now, instead of smoking, physical fitness is the thing during hours not on watch; running laps on the flight deck, push-ups, sit-ups, etc.

At some point before I quit "cold turkey" smoking altogether, I changed from strictly Marlboros to the occasional pack of Newports. Those cigarettes were made by Lorillard. Still around since the days of t205, t206, t210 and t211.

[Pat R]

I'm not sure what cards they would be but these ads are from 1891

Red Cross The_Times_Democrat_Tue__Sep_1__1891_.jpg

Red Cross The_Times_Picayune_Tue__Sep_1__1891_.jpg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Here's why I brought up T213 when you talk about Red Cross. T213-2, T215-2, and T214 have blue captions. What do you make of that.

I make of it that the lithographer who did these and had one of the sets or the set of printing material from the original T206 runs made an aesthetic choice. I would think these are probably all from the same lithographer; ALC or the same partner.

If you are suggesting these blue caption cards are all related at a business level, I am not sure how a L&M brand and a Lorillard's brand would be working together as a department post-breakup, or how the color of the caption serves as a geographic key. During the ATC days (t213-1, T215-1) we know that all brands at a factory are not grouped together in the internal structure, nor does it relate to geographic end distribution. Grouping does not seem to relate to the production system much. For example, Mecca, Tolstoi and Lenox, at the time recently expanding from its launch in the Chicago territory (this is when we find geographic limits on ATC brands - when new brands are being launched and tested, not after decades of distribution), are a department in late 1910 with a shared manager.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Why aren't the Tri-state East Coast old-timers jumping in and saying, "Rob is wrong, Red Cross, Coupon, and Victory with the blue cations were always there at the Philly Show."

I would suspect this crowd by and large agrees with you that it is a Louisiana regional exclusive - it is the conventional narrative precisely because the old-timers believe this. That, of course, is not evidence.

I have no real opinion as of yet. Primary source material strongly suggests that this was not a regional Louisiana brand, which would make it unreasonable not to examine the traditional claim. I hope to learn the evidentiary basis for the traditional claim. Wherever evidence leads, one should go.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm not sure what cards they would be but these ads are from 1891

Nice find. These must be the circus scenes or the actresses; the pugilists could not have appeared before 1893. Neither of these 2 sets are "cutout" in the sense they have cuts or are die-cut or are stand-up type cards. The subjects are portrayed without much of a background, so perhaps it is referring to that aesthetic of portrayal.

[brass_rat]

I have seven of these but only screenshots of two right now. I've only ever seen them once... All are non-sports but are really pretty.

I can get out and actually scan them at a later date.

Cheers,
Steve

[G1911]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I have seven of these but only screenshots of two right now. I've only ever seen them once... All are non-sports but are really pretty.

I can get out and actually scan them at a later date.

Cheers,
Steve

Those are nice. Never seen them before.

Attached are examples of the N264, N266 and N268 cards that Forbes & Mitchell list for the brand.

[Pat R]

Thanks for posting those Steve it is very likely that they are what the ads were for.

Here's another ad from 1884 for a poster

Red Cross The_Journal_Times_Wed__Jul_30__1884_.jpg

[RCMcKenzie]

When you say "this crowd" probably agrees, what other crowd knows or cares about these subjects? I'm not being confrontational, I'm just wondering.

Maybe I don't understand. Does it not matter to you where cards are discovered? Do you believe that Tango Eggs is a Louisiana issue? I've only heard the story. I wasn't there.

Are regional issues a myth, or only Louisiana tobacco issues? Are Zee-nuts from Cailfornia? Have I been misled all along?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

When you say "this crowd" probably agrees, what other crowd knows or cares about these subjects? I'm not being confrontational, I'm just wondering.

I know for a fact that there are multiple types of collectors of T cards, and not all of them are the type reminiscing about Philadelphia shows 30-40 years ago. "This crowd" is the group you specifically identified and chose for a rhetorical point.

That people believe X does not make X true, and we have found many times in research that what people think to be true oft is not. That is the beauty of proper research, we can learn new things, correct things, and expand our knowledge about hobby items we like. Knowledge comes from evidence, not authority.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Maybe I don't understand. Does it not matter to you where cards are discovered? Do you believe that Tango Eggs is a Louisiana issue? I've only heard the story. I wasn't there.

Sure it matters. It is not the only thing that matters, nor the best evidence.

All of the original collections of T218 and T220 cards I have bought over the years have been from New York (or from a family that was in New York in that time period and later moved), where the lithographer and the packing factories were located. Does this mean they are a New York State only issue? Obviously not. Some Robertson's Candy cards have come from Canada. Does this mean they were even issued there at all? The evidence very, very strongly suggests that they were a regional from a single store in New York City. I purchased an original collection of C52's that came from NY originally, and another from a family in Virginia that was in Virginia in the time period of issue. Does this mean they were issued there? Maybe it's a clue these might be more than an Imperial release, maybe not. It sure isn't proof that the set isn't a Canadian issue.

I am hardly surprised many cards have been found, or claimed to be found (I am just accepting every story as true), in LA. That doesn't mean something is only there.

Some of X have been found in Y
Authorities say X was only from Y
X is only from Y

One should surely see room for legitimate question in the basis here. There's some massive extrapolations here that don't seem to mesh with the brand's actual history.

I cannot meaningfully comment on Tango Eggs as I have done no research into the story. Tango Eggs have nothing whatsoever to do with Lorillard's or ATC distribution. The find is one of the coolest stories in baseball card lore and I own a type card.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Are regional issues a myth, or only Louisiana tobacco issues? Are Zee-nuts from Cailfornia? Have I been misled all along?

If primary source evidence arose that Zeenut was selling their candy in North Carolina as well, do you honestly think it would be unreasonable to examine if cards inserted into those packs were also there? Surely the question would be understandable?

Evidence was provided that does not mesh with the story told; and evidence in support asked for so that the totality of evidence may be examined publicly by anyone and everyone interested in the production and distribution details of T cards. While it is easier to spin into a joke implying my argument is that regional issues are a myth, nobody has said anything even remotely approaching this absurdity. I know by now that even the most elementary of evidentiary bases that are expected in any other subject of research or inquiry will be met like this by many pre-war collectors who are for some reason attached to a particular outcome.

[teza11]

Steve,

Those "Bust of Girls" cards are N267's. They were branded Red Cross or Mechanic's Delight. 24 different known.

Jeff

[teza11]

Adding a few T60 images for good measure. Tough cards!

Jeff

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by teza11

Steve,

Those "Bust of Girls" cards are N267's. They were branded Red Cross or Mechanic's Delight. 24 different known.

Jeff

Thanks! I didn't know that... Or if I did, I certainly forgot.

http://www.moviecard.com/gallery/oth...cco//n267.html

And The Met claims 25 in the set:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/892060

Thanks for the info,
Steve

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice cards, Jeff and Steve.

Greg, I am certainly not a scholar, and have not studied the cigarette journals.
Given merchant, warrior or philosopher class, I am firmly in the merchant class.


If Dave chimes in that I am mistaken, that the T219 Red Cross cards he found were not from a guy in Baton Rouge, but a guy in Trenton, NJ, that would be huge evidence to support your claim, anecdotal or not.

Is it possible that people in the NE bought Red Cross packs that did not include the cards?

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by G1911

I know for a fact that there are multiple types of collectors of T cards, and not all of them are the type reminiscing about Philadelphia shows 30-40 years ago. "This crowd" is the group you specifically identified and chose for a rhetorical point.

My point is not old people good, younger people bad. I think the board ranges from 15-95. All good posters.

My point is that when my Dad took me and my brother to the Ramada Inn show with 20 dealers in 1981, 5 of them had stacks of T213. There was no internet. They had purchased the cards from localyard and estate sales from the original owners.

[Pat R]

Rob, I think I know where Greg is coming from. Greg and I have bumped heads a few times in the past and I'm sure we will again but in the end I know we both agree that the most important thing is accurate information and that's not the case with some people.

The majority of the posts on here suggests that they were only distributed in Louisiana and I think almost everyone will agree that the main distribution of the Red Cross cards was Louisiana but I have never seen what I would consider solid proof that they were only distributed there and there's some pretty good information that suggests that they weren't.

[RCMcKenzie]

Pat, I am enjoying discussing the topic with you, Greg, and others. I have many more questions than answers about T215. I'm always going to treat each topic individually, where I may agree on one thread and disagree on another. Thanks for the comments. I'm thinking I may have to edit "Louisiana issues" from my sig line. haha

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Do you believe that Tango Eggs is a Louisiana issue? I've only heard the story. I wasn't there.

Came across the first one while looking for something else unrelated, so back to it.

1) National Poultry, Butter and Egg Bulletin, September 1919. Branches in 2 Texas cities, Mississippi, and Havana.

2) Texas Department of Agriculture, State's Marketing Bulletin Volume 2, issue 11, 1920. They are also buying poultry in Texas.

In 1915 the U.S. Egg and Poultry Magazine has the L. Frank Company taking the lead in an effort by the industry to reduce rail rates in Texas because eggs from Texas weigh less than eggs from New York (today I learned) but were charged at the NY weight.

Seems this company was headquarted in NO, but also did not restrict its operations to the local level and was actively engaged in business throughout the southeast at least. They claim to be "New Orleans' largest poultry and egg handlers in the south"; I cannot find much on the Tango branding that appears on the cards.

Unlike Red Sun and Red Cross; it seems their card set was barely issued if issued at all. There's a true handful of what appear to be original circulation cards. I believe only 2 have the number stamps. The letter states how the lot that accounts for almost all of the cards was acquired in New Orleans. If properly issued, it may well not have been an NO exclusive, it appears.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by G1911

Came across the first one while looking for something else unrelated, so back to it.

1) National Poultry, Butter and Egg Bulletin, September 1919. Branches in 2 Texas cities, Mississippi, and Havana.

2) Texas Department of Agriculture, State's Marketing Bulletin Volume 2, issue 11, 1920. They are also buying poultry in Texas.

In 1915 the U.S. Egg and Poultry Magazine has the L. Frank Company taking the lead in an effort by the industry to reduce rail rates in Texas because eggs from Texas weigh less than eggs from New York (today I learned) but were charged at the NY weight.

Seems this company was headquarted in NO, but also did not restrict its operations to the local level and was actively engaged in business throughout the southeast at least. They claim to be "New Orleans' largest poultry and egg handlers in the south"; I cannot find much on the Tango branding that appears on the cards.

Unlike Red Sun and Red Cross; it seems their card set was barely issued if issued at all. There's a true handful of what appear to be original circulation cards. I believe only 2 have the number stamps. The letter states how the lot that accounts for almost all of the cards was acquired in New Orleans. If properly issued, it may well not have been an NO exclusive, it appears.

Cool ad!!

[ullmandds]

Very interesting!!! Great info! I wish there were a tango dots miller w/glove card!!

[RCMcKenzie]

That's all well and good, but if you guys want the 37 Bob Beschers and 14 Hughie Jennings, you'll have to outbid me, gang.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

That's all well and good, but if you guys want the 37 Bob Beschers and 14 Hughie Jennings, you'll have to outbid me, gang.

I know this is just a joke about the REA lot, but does anybody have a accurate count of the Tango Eggs find? The original documentation I have seen groups them into batches based on quantity, but the top group is 25+, and no count beyond that is given. It feels like Bescher is more common than the others in this 25+ grouping.

Mr. Mint claimed to have 5-12 of the subjects he got from it.

I own a Besher I bought from the BST last year as my lone type of this set, and have no intention to acquire another Tango Eggs (unless a Jennings happens by at a good price...). Very cool issue with a unique story, but a set builders nightmare.

[steve B]

I called to reserve as the ad said, got an answering machine and never got a call back.
Wasn't a big fan of Mr Mint before, and really disliked him after.

[Golfcollector]

Jesus...why couldn't I have gotten in on the Crawford in 1995! I will never own one now....

[Exhibitman]

I don't think we can infer much about original distribution from dealer acquisitions 100 years later unless the provenance is a family inheritance or similar direct line of descent. I recently picked an estate from a family home that had been passed down for five generations and got a cache of original to the family cards, but other than coming across something like that, there is very little chance of proving a group is an original assemblage of pack-pulled items. I've had it happen twice with prewar cards. I've also had people walk in crazy rare assemblages of cards that came from estate sales, dumpster dives, flea markets, etc. Speaking specifically to Red Cross cards, at one World Boxing Hall of Fame show here in Los Angeles, I had a walk-in with seven T219 Red Cross cards. No idea of what they were, he just got them in a junk sale with a bunch of other cards. I also watched an N386 Spaulding & Merrick Sullivan walked into the 2006 Anaheim National by a junk dealer. He got it from picking somewhere in Los Angeles.

[RCMcKenzie]

Sorry that I took this off topic to Tango Eggs. Greg, I don't know a whole lot about Tango Eggs. I have a McQuillan as a type. I may add more one day for back runs. Bescher seems to pop-up all the time in auctions and on eBay. Yes, I am joking about the REA lot. I can't imagine what to do with 37 Beschers. I do have a placeholder bid in, though.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Sorry that I took this off topic to Tango Eggs. Greg, I don't know a whole lot about Tango Eggs. I have a McQuillan as a type. I may add more one day for back runs. Bescher seems to pop-up all the time in auctions and on eBay. Yes, I am joking about the REA lot. I can't imagine what to do with 37 Beschers. I do have a placeholder bid in, though.

No worries, the Tango's are a fun set to explore too.



PSA POP
Besher - 62
Bresnahan - 3
Bridwell - 9
Chase - 20
Cobb - 1
Collins - 15
Crawford - 2
Doing - 28
Evers - 1
Felsh - 1
Jennings - 67
McQuillan - 30
Meyer - 24
Morgan - 1
Murphy - 17
Oakes - 1
Plank - 1
Weaver - 37
Zimmerman - 7


The Oakes and Plank are cards from outside the find, Plank is a true beater. The Oakes is in good condition and has a backstamp. The Cobb known today I suspect is not the same card from the find (i.e., there would be at least 2 of them) and is in super poor condition, markedly different from the find cards. It too has a backstamp. The Plank does not have a backstamp. I am not aware of any other outside-the-find Tango's but I am not an expert in this issue and have merely gathered images when I've seen them over the years.

As far as I am aware, a Tinker and Wagner claimed in the letter to be known from before this find have never publicly surfaced. Schaefer I have never seen a picture of, the letter notes 2 of them were discovered.

There were probably originally at least 3 other cards made or intended.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I don't think we can infer much about original distribution from dealer acquisitions 100 years later unless the provenance is a family inheritance or similar direct line of descent. I recently picked an estate from a family home that had been passed down for five generations and got a cache of original to the family cards, but other than coming across something like that, there is very little chance of proving a group is an original assemblage of pack-pulled items. I've had it happen twice with prewar cards. I've also had people walk in crazy rare assemblages of cards that came from estate sales, dumpster dives, flea markets, etc. Speaking specifically to Red Cross cards, at one World Boxing Hall of Fame show here in Los Angeles, I had a walk-in with seven T219 Red Cross cards. No idea of what they were, he just got them in a junk sale with a bunch of other cards. I also watched an N386 Spaulding & Merrick Sullivan walked into the 2006 Anaheim National by a junk dealer. He got it from picking somewhere in Los Angeles.

Someone walking up to me with 7 Red Crosses is a dream. I bought most of those Levin put up and then a couple from other sources. They are hard cards and most of them locked up tight in collections. I don't expect to complete my T219 master set anytime this century.

[gabrinus]

Greg, there are two known Cobbs in the Tango set...I once owned the beater Cobb which is now owned by Ryan I believe and one batting Cobb...Jerry

[G1911]

I’ve never seen the batting one, that’s awesome. Thank you