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  #1  
Old 08-31-2017, 03:45 PM
cgriffith cgriffith is offline
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Default 1933 Goudey (Ruth) Market currently?

The 33' set and especially the Ruth's seem to be in higher demand. How is this demand/expected supply affecting the market currently? Are the two colliding and Ruth cards over performaning are are they stable? Where is the market.. are these cards as hot as it seems reading the forums?
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:52 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
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Originally Posted by cgriffith View Post
The 33' set and especially the Ruth's seem to be in higher demand. How is this demand/expected supply affecting the market currently? Are the two colliding and Ruth cards over performaning are are they stable? Where is the market.. are these cards as hot as it seems reading the forums?
Ruth's and Cobb's are always strong, and seem to be getting stronger...
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
Ruth's and Cobb's are always strong, and seem to be getting stronger...
To what extent exactly? Are those two as an example 10% - 15% above value via premium or does it depend on POP, and card.

Example:

33 Goudey #144 production was greater than #53, #149 and # 181 conversely the Green back Cobb (although this may change) had/has always been more than the latter.

So is a PSA 3 #53 get an automatic premium bump based on scaricity/availability in comparison to a #144, #149 and #181
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2017, 06:15 PM
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I didn't know cards were so complicated LOL
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  #5  
Old 09-01-2017, 09:47 AM
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I didn't know cards were so complicated LOL

You know some collectors not only collect what they like, or what will always hold value but also enjoy the history and prestige the card can accure; both on an investment level and for pure enoyment of it historical signifigance to the hobby.

Sometimes collecting is more than meets the eye, I'm sorry it's so (laughing out loud funny!) no wonder it took so long for me to actually sign up.

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  #6  
Old 09-01-2017, 09:56 AM
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What does a Goudey push do for World Wide Gum? I bought this card for $500 maybe 5 or 6 years ago. I must be doing well now, right?

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  #7  
Old 09-01-2017, 10:17 AM
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Not necessarily. My experiences with alternative cards have been that they do not mirror the moves of the mainstream analogs. I have a nice Coupon Cobb that I know has not appreciated like the T206. I don't care; I really like the card. If your set is Goudey you don't take WWG as an alternative. Still, it is a tough Ruth so you're doing very well.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:23 AM
Bigshot69 Bigshot69 is offline
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Ruth's story is simply too magnificent to not be revisited by Hollywood or network television every 10-20 years. Like the appreciation comic books have experienced thanks to the added awareness Disney has given the brand, the same could happen to the Babe. And similar to the coveted Amazing Fantasy #15, the Goudey Ruth's are rare but not scarce enough that they are not attainable.

As for the man himself, he was arguably the first larger than life sports celebrity. He went from being raised in a quasi-orphanage to become the gretest ball-player of his generation and arguably of all-time.

Factor in the aesthetics of the set itself along with transitioning cards from being marketed with gum instead of tobacco and I personally feel there is chance for some upside here.
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  #9  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:29 AM
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The only way the 33 Goudey Ruth cards will continue to appreciate, is if I continue to not own one. When I prepare to buy, I will give advance warning so you all can dump yours before the market plummets. This action is usually about 1 to 2 weeks after I purchase.
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:50 AM
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Ruth's story is simply too magnificent to not be revisited by Hollywood or network television every 10-20 years. Like the appreciation comic books have experienced thanks to the added awareness Disney has given the brand, the same could happen to the Babe. And similar to the coveted Amazing Fantasy #15, the Goudey Ruth's are rare but not scarce enough that they are not attainable.

As for the man himself, he was arguably the first larger than life sports celebrity. He went from being raised in a quasi-orphanage to become the gretest ball-player of his generation and arguably of all-time.

Factor in the aesthetics of the set itself along with transitioning cards from being marketed with gum instead of tobacco and I personally feel there is chance for some upside here.

Exactly: I like how your comparison brought up another lexacon of hobbyist comic books; everyone knows who Batman and Superman thanks to Bill Finger, Bob Kane and Shuster & Seigel. They are imprinted into the history of Americana as is Babe Ruth. Because of this Ruth is desirable whether the card itself respresents that value is up to the collector and or market. But there is no diubt the important of Ruth in the promotion of the 33 Goudey Set and why its such a highly collected set.

The set with the 1909-11 T206 and 1952 Topps are probably the most collectable and sought after; and the reasons why are obviously but will his 4 Goudey's continue to rise as big as is legend and the man himself did. Babe Ruth changed baseball, and the availability of 4 cards within 1 set (#53 being the most desirable) allows for all collectors to enjoy the chase of the Greaterst of All Time.
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  #11  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:24 PM
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Exactly: I like how your comparison brought up another lexacon of hobbyist comic books; everyone knows who Batman and Superman thanks to Bill Finger, Bob Kane and Shuster & Seigel. They are imprinted into the history of Americana as is Babe Ruth. Because of this Ruth is desirable whether the card itself respresents that value is up to the collector and or market. But there is no diubt the important of Ruth in the promotion of the 33 Goudey Set and why its such a highly collected set.

The set with the 1909-11 T206 and 1952 Topps are probably the most collectable and sought after; and the reasons why are obviously but will his 4 Goudey's continue to rise as big as is legend and the man himself did. Babe Ruth changed baseball, and the availability of 4 cards within 1 set (#53 being the most desirable) allows for all collectors to enjoy the chase of the Greaterst of All Time.
You had me until you got to the "most desirable". It's probably debatable....

.
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2017, 12:34 PM
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Default '33 Ruth

I cant remember a time when '33 Ruths were not in high demand. The iconic status of the player and set will keep demand high and price appreciation with it relative to other cards. That said, if there is an overall decline across the hobby I would expect this card to pull back as well (I know obviously right!). One additional thought, '33 Goudey's are available enough that set builders are in the game for this card as well helping demand. I'm in the market for several '33 HOF cards including a Ruth and it seems Ruth as well as others always seem to draw a lot of interest. If there is a safe bet in our hobby, like Kevin said, Ruth and Cobb are as close as your going to get.
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  #13  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:00 PM
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You had me until you got to the "most desirable". It's probably debatable....

.
Yep. My favorite is #144. Even though it's a DP, to me, that card IS Babe Ruth.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:01 PM
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Yep. My favorite is #144. Even though it's a DP, to me, that card IS Babe Ruth.

144 is the best imo as well.
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:16 PM
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Default They are great cards

I hope to add another one to my collection soon.
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  #16  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:25 PM
Bigshot69 Bigshot69 is offline
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144 is the best imo as well.
I've always thought #149 was a bit underrated, at least in comparison to #53.

No doubt #144 is a classic card.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:31 PM
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#181 here, long as we're voting.
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  #18  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigshot69 View Post
Ruth's story is simply too magnificent to not be revisited by Hollywood or network television every 10-20 years. Like the appreciation comic books have experienced thanks to the added awareness Disney has given the brand, the same could happen to the Babe. And similar to the coveted Amazing Fantasy #15, the Goudey Ruth's are rare but not scarce enough that they are not attainable.

As for the man himself, he was arguably the first larger than life sports celebrity. He went from being raised in a quasi-orphanage to become the gretest ball-player of his generation and arguably of all-time.

Factor in the aesthetics of the set itself along with transitioning cards from being marketed with gum instead of tobacco and I personally feel there is chance for some upside here.
There were several boxers prior to Ruth's time that definitely fit the bill of larger than life sports celebrity.
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  #19  
Old 09-01-2017, 04:05 PM
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I know this is an unpopular stance, but I don't get the whole Goudey Ruth thing. I've owned all 4, and they are very nice cards. I get that they are playing-era cards of the most iconic figure in sports. My issues are: 1. They were released 18 years into his career (the season before he retired). 2. They are renderings, rather than photos. 3. There are about 1,000 of each in the psa population alone. I didn't check sgc, but I know they have graded a ton as well. They are far from rare. And that doesn't even include the WWG pop. 4. Three of the cards use the same image, and two are identical other than the color on the background.
So while I do think they are attractive cards of the game's greatest figure, I don't really see why they are so revered in contrast to far earlier and more rare Ruth cards. You may bash me now.

Last edited by orly57; 09-01-2017 at 04:28 PM.
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  #20  
Old 09-01-2017, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
I know this is an unpopular stance, but I don't get the whole Goudey Ruth thing. I've owned all 4, and they are very nice cards. I get that they are playing-era cards of the most iconic figure in sports. My issues are: 1. They were released 18 years into his career (the season before he retired). 2. They are renderings, rather than photos. And 3. There are about 1,000 of each in the psa population alone. I didn't check sgc, but I know they have graded a ton as well. They are far from rare. And that doesn't even include the WWG pop.
So while I do think they are attractive cards of the game's greatest figure, I don't really see why they are so revered in contrast to far earlier and more rare Ruth cards. You may bash me now.
i agree...but they are popular for this very reason that they are readily available in all conditions!
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:34 PM
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What I don't understand is why the WWG versions, which are significantly more rare, sell at a fairly steep discount to the US counterparts. It begs the question: is there an anti-Canadian bias in vintage cardboard? I'm asking half-jokingly, but I'm curious to hear thoughts. Irv-where are you at on this topic?

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  #22  
Old 09-01-2017, 04:42 PM
Bigshot69 Bigshot69 is offline
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If PSA shows pop 1000 on the census how many of those have been cracked and resubbed? How many of the SGC holders have been crossed over to PSAs? Assuming there are 1500-2000 gradeable copies of each Ruth card is it reasonable to speculate there are more than 2000 collectors out there who want one of each? The law of supply and demand would apply here, no?

Last edited by Bigshot69; 09-01-2017 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Typo due to beer
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:50 PM
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Sam, we don't like no KSA or O-Pee-Chee here in 'Merica!

Adam, I understand supply and demand. That wasn't the point of the post. The question I essentially posed, if you want to put in terms of supply and demand, is "why such a high demand for 4 cards that are way late in Ruth's career and aren't particularly rare?" And for every card that was cracked and resubmitted there is a raw copy in some album somewhere. The pop isn't gospel, it just gives us a general idea of how many are out there.

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Old 09-01-2017, 04:53 PM
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What I don't understand is why the WWG versions, which are significantly more rare, sell at a fairly steep discount to the US counterparts. It begs the question: is there an anti-Canadian bias in vintage cardboard? I'm asking half-jokingly, but I'm curious to hear thoughts. Irv-where are you at on this topic?
This is because of set collectors. The 1933 Goudey set is a pretty popular set for set collectors, so folks have to get all 4 Ruths too in order to complete their set. (Most skip the Lajoie similar to how T206 set collectors often skip the Big 4.) The WWG is not a commonly collected set which decreases the demand for the Ruth in that set.

I don't own any of the Goudey Ruth's right now, but I prefer the Blue Bird image to the Goudey 144.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:57 PM
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Sam, we don't like no KSA or O-Pee-Chee here in 'Merica!

Adam, I understand supply and demand. That wasn't the point of the post. The question I essentially posed, if you want to put in terms of supply and demand, is "why such a high demand for 4 cards that are way late in Ruth's career and aren't particularly rare?"
A big part is affordability - not many collectors can afford a Baltimore News Ruth or some others. I'm not certain of this but isn't the Goudey the first card that doesn't show a black and white image? Could be a factor as well for some.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:31 PM
Bigshot69 Bigshot69 is offline
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Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
Sam, we don't like no KSA or O-Pee-Chee here in 'Merica!

Adam, I understand supply and demand. That wasn't the point of the post. The question I essentially posed, if you want to put in terms of supply and demand, is "why such a high demand for 4 cards that are way late in Ruth's career and aren't particularly rare?" And for every card that was cracked and resubmitted there is a raw copy in some album somewhere. The pop isn't gospel, it just gives us a general idea of how many are out there.
Absolutely, Orlando. I guess with Ruth being the among the most recognizable athletes throughout history combined with the 1933 Goudey being among the top 2 or 3 most collectible vintage sets helps set the floor in terms of price. I'd love a Baltimore News rookie or a M 101-4 but while I would gain a great card I would also probably lose a great wife.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:50 PM
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I know this is an unpopular stance, but I don't get the whole Goudey Ruth thing. I've owned all 4, and they are very nice cards. I get that they are playing-era cards of the most iconic figure in sports. My issues are: 1. They were released 18 years into his career (the season before he retired). 2. They are renderings, rather than photos. 3. There are about 1,000 of each in the psa population alone. I didn't check sgc, but I know they have graded a ton as well. They are far from rare. And that doesn't even include the WWG pop. 4. Three of the cards use the same image, and two are identical other than the color on the background.
So while I do think they are attractive cards of the game's greatest figure, I don't really see why they are so revered in contrast to far earlier and more rare Ruth cards. You may bash me now.
1933 Goudey was the very first set issued with bubble gum. Many of us grew up buying packs of baseball cards with bubble gum in them. It is a landmark set that defines the hobby. It doesn't hurt that it has 4 Babe Ruth cards in it. These are the real bubble gum cards of the game's best player. Most eveything else are pretenders. That is like asking what is the big deal about the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. Firsts in the hobby equate with iconic cards and iconic sets.
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:04 PM
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This is because of set collectors. The 1933 Goudey set is a pretty popular set for set collectors, so folks have to get all 4 Ruths too in order to complete their set.
Agree and that's a good point. Not only do you have the set collector factor, but it's also arguably one of the top 3 collected sets in the hobby along with T206 and 1952 Topps.

And with regards to, as Orlando put it, "why they are so revered in contrast to far earlier and more rare Ruth cards..." I don't think this is necessarily the case at all. The more rare Ruth cards are definitely revered in the hobby, but many collectors simply don't pursue them because they are so rare. The casual collector may not even know about such issues, let alone follow the auction houses that sell them.

The more esoteric Ruth cards are definitely increasing in value over the past few years, and I believe at a higher rate than the '33 Goudey Ruth cards, although I have no exact figures to back that up. The gap is narrowing, especially as more collectors gain knowledge and learn about the rarer issues.

Finally, some collectors might actually prefer a colorful, artistic rendering of a player over a black and white photo.
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
I know this is an unpopular stance, but I don't get the whole Goudey Ruth thing. I've owned all 4, and they are very nice cards. I get that they are playing-era cards of the most iconic figure in sports. My issues are: 1. They were released 18 years into his career (the season before he retired). 2. They are renderings, rather than photos. 3. There are about 1,000 of each in the psa population alone. I didn't check sgc, but I know they have graded a ton as well. They are far from rare. And that doesn't even include the WWG pop. 4. Three of the cards use the same image, and two are identical other than the color on the background.
So while I do think they are attractive cards of the game's greatest figure, I don't really see why they are so revered in contrast to far earlier and more rare Ruth cards. You may bash me now.
I am not sure that they are so much more revered than the far earlier and rare Ruth cards, Orlando, rather they are much more plentiful and attainable for most collectors. Even in a 2 grade, many collectors simply cannot afford to add a Goudey Ruth.

For the collectors than can afford to drop a few grand on a nice 2 or 3, the Goudey is the one. Classic set.
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2017, 06:28 PM
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What I don't understand is why the WWG versions, which are significantly more rare, sell at a fairly steep discount to the US counterparts. It begs the question: is there an anti-Canadian bias in vintage cardboard? I'm asking half-jokingly, but I'm curious to hear thoughts. Irv-where are you at on this topic?
yes there is!
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  #31  
Old 09-01-2017, 06:39 PM
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Default #144

Picked this up recently. Definitely my favorite card in the set.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:09 PM
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What I don't understand is why the WWG versions, which are significantly more rare, sell at a fairly steep discount to the US counterparts. It begs the question: is there an anti-Canadian bias in vintage cardboard? I'm asking half-jokingly, but I'm curious to hear thoughts. Irv-where are you at on this topic?
In this case, yes....a huge bias. Goudey Gum Co. and baseball are American. I venture to guess at some point I'll tackle a vintage hockey set, and when I do it'll be OPC or Parkhurst.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:39 PM
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All excellent points. Pretty sure the '32 Caramel is the first standard issue "color" Ruth by the way. There are some strip cards with color.

Last edited by orly57; 09-01-2017 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
That is like asking what is the big deal about the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. Firsts in the hobby equate with iconic cards and iconic sets.
I like this point. It may be a rendering and not a photo, but the art blew away any rendering before it.

Also, I think the pop-culture aspect of Ruth's Goudey cards is overlooked. I get that there are many rarer cards that core vintage collectors can wax poetic on all day long, but if the masses can identify with any Ruth card, it's a Goudey, guaranteed. I know a guy who owns one and he couldn't care less about baseball. When I asked him why he owns it, he said "it's like holding a piece of America in your hand." Goudey Ruths are baseball card equivalents of cross-over collectibles. In the Venn Diagram of collectibles, they're smack in the middle.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
I like this point. It may be a rendering and not a photo, but the art blew away any rendering before it.

Also, I think the pop-culture aspect of Ruth's Goudey cards is overlooked. I get that there are many rarer cards that core vintage collectors can wax poetic on all day long, but if the masses can identify with any Ruth card, it's a Goudey, guaranteed. I know a guy who owns one and he couldn't care less about baseball. When I asked him why he owns it, he said "it's like holding a piece of America in your hand." Goudey Ruths are baseball card equivalents of cross-over collectibles. In the Venn Diagram of collectibles, they're smack in the middle.
2nd this...my good buddy who doesn't collect has a psa 2.5 #181. His mom bought it for him as a present in 1979 for under $100 bucks.
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:06 AM
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Another thought and correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't the '33 Goudey the first big set issued since T206's and CJ's. It has a large checklist of the current big names (eventual HOF'ers), nationally distributed, beautifully colored artwork and issued with gum. Hence the huge popularity. The sets from the '20's seem to be more "regionally" issued and therefore not as much "national" demand. Where there any sets issued between CJ's and '33 Goudeys that fit those criteria? Just a thought on why Goudeys became so popular over time.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:43 AM
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Yeah Dean, I agree. The gap between Cracker Jack and Goudey was not a good one for baseball cards. I've always thought it was a shame that this period coincided precisely with Ruth's career. Imagine an early t206, T3, T227, or Cracker Jack Babe Ruth! When I entered pre-war collecting, I was initially going to focus on Ruth, but after buying several of his cards, I found myself enjoying my Cobb cards far more. That's when I switched my focus.
Rats made a comparison between the Goudey Ruth's and the 52 mantle. I think the analogy is appropriate only in that they are star players in legendary sets. Mantle made his appearance in the 52 Topps set as a fresh-faced second-year player, and only had the one card in the set. In contrast, Ruth had 4 cards, and was in his 18th year in the league. We always value rookie or earlier cards over cards released later in a career. A 1968 Mantle doesn't come close to a mantle from the 50's. And I guarantee you that the 52 mantle wouldn't be nearly as popular, iconic, or valuable if it were released in Mantle's 8th, or much less, 18th season in the league. After reading all of the comments, most of which I agree with, I think I discovered that the main ressons for my indifference (for lack of a better word, because I do like them) towards the Goudey Ruth's has more to do with the fact that they are pretty common, and released so very late in his career. But I most certainly do understand the draw, and why so many collectors are attracted to them.

Last edited by orly57; 09-02-2017 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 09-02-2017, 03:27 PM
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The PWCC examples are poised to possibly hit record levels for the assigned grades ..... and affect the market moving forward
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