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  #1  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:28 AM
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Default Soaking E Series

Good morning all, just curious - anyone ever soak any of the E Series, specifically E93's or E95's..? I have a couple with dirt/mild stains that I thought about soaking, but wasn't sure if it will remove ink, ruin, disintegrate, etc. Paper stock seems thick enough, but didn't have one I wanted to "test" with.

As always, appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,

Ed
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  #2  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:48 AM
FrankWakefield FrankWakefield is offline
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They soak wonderfully well.


I'm adding, a few hours later, that I'm referring to the E93s and E95s that you asked about in your original post. Not talking about all of the cards that Mr. Burdick put under the E classification.

Last edited by FrankWakefield; 12-04-2010 at 04:51 PM.
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  #3  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:30 AM
Ohio_Collectibles Ohio_Collectibles is offline
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OK, forgive my ignorance here but isn't soaking a bad thing? I assume that soaking is to removed dirt & stains, but by doing that, isn't it altering the card. How is it any different than say, using a power eraser to clean white bordered cards. After soaking, wouldn't you have to Iron or Press them to get the water out? That would possibly remove any creases and also press the card outward and make it slightly oversized. What's to stop you from trimming it at that point.

Ed, I understand that these are cards for your personal collection most likely, But what happens when you pass away and someone else gets the cards. How will they know the cards have been soaked?

Just curious, I've seen many people get jumped here when discussing "altering" cards. So what's the difference in this case?\

~OC
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  #4  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:48 AM
marcdelpercio marcdelpercio is offline
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Personally, I don't feel that soaking in water is an "alteration" because nothing unnatural or unoriginal is being added to the card or removed from the card in any way. Only superficial dirt and stains are lifted away from the card and there are no chemical or physical alterations to the card stock. "Power erasing" may be slightly different as this may remove a light layer of the card fibers along with the pencil/ink mark so, in a sense, this does alter the original composition of the card. I think everybody would agree that the other things you mentioned (pressing to widen borders, trimming, etc) are alterations for that exact reason.

There will probably never be universal acceptance of soaking as there are some who feel that absolutely anything that changes any aspect of a card as it is originally found is an alteration. In my opinion, if one subscribes to that viewpoint, they must view the card as already having been altered when the dirt/pencil/whatever was added and, in fact, any card that is not gem mint directly off the press would in some way be altered.

To answer the original question, by the way, E93s and E95s both soak very nicely

Last edited by marcdelpercio; 12-04-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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  #5  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:52 AM
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Default Soaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio_Collectibles View Post
OK, forgive my ignorance here but isn't soaking a bad thing? I assume that soaking is to removed dirt & stains, but by doing that, isn't it altering the card. How is it any different than say, using a power eraser to clean white bordered cards. After soaking, wouldn't you have to Iron or Press them to get the water out? That would possibly remove any creases and also press the card outward and make it slightly oversized. What's to stop you from trimming it at that point.

Ed, I understand that these are cards for your personal collection most likely, But what happens when you pass away and someone else gets the cards. How will they know the cards have been soaked?

Just curious, I've seen many people get jumped here when discussing "altering" cards. So what's the difference in this case?\

~OC
OC, I understand your point, but I personally disagree in that a card stained, written upon, handled by greasy fingers, gets dirty over time, etc can also be construed in one form or another as altering (negatively), so isn't the idea of soaking more to clean/correct/reverse this? You might otherwise clean other collectibles in order to maintain and improve their quality and appearance, I don't see much difference here.

I don't know about ironing and other avenues to remove wrinkles, I don't think to or take it to that level. Soaking to clean - you don't have to do any of that to get the water out other than press between a couple hard cover books in a clean dry cloth and let dry. And trimming (in my book) is something altogether different. I know that many collectors/sellers soak their cards and I'm totally fine buying or trading for them.

I just don't see it as altering in a deceptive/artificial way.

I know this galvanizes strong opinion on both sides and I respect differing view points. Thank you (and Frank) for your feedback, I truly appreciate the thoughts and opinions from the Board.

Ed
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  #6  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:00 AM
Ohio_Collectibles Ohio_Collectibles is offline
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Honestly, I have no opinion one way or the other. I was just curious on the subject. If a card has been soaked is it detectible to grading companies? I've heard of a guy in New York I think that can "clean" cards. He can remove paint, ink, tape residue, and other stains from a card and it is supposedly undetectible to graders. Yet he was practically crucified on several sports card message boards when he offered his services.

I am wondering how that would be any different than soaking.

~OC
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  #7  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio_Collectibles View Post
Honestly, I have no opinion one way or the other. I was just curious on the subject. If a card has been soaked is it detectible to grading companies? I've heard of a guy in New York I think that can "clean" cards. He can remove paint, ink, tape residue, and other stains from a card and it is supposedly undetectible to graders. Yet he was practically crucified on several sports card message boards when he offered his services.

I am wondering how that would be any different than soaking.

~OC
Nothing I've soaked has ever come back "altered". I would suspect bcse there's nothing artificial as far as chemicals left behind or layers stripped? I've never taken it past this to other avenues/levels though .. or on other cards besides T206.

Marco (and Frank again) - thank you for your feedback on the E93/E95 - good to know! Much appreciate!

Ed
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  #8  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcdelpercio View Post
Personally, I don't feel that soaking in water is an "alteration" because nothing unnatural or unoriginal is being added to the card or removed from the card in any way. Only superficial dirt and stains are lifted away from the card and there are no chemical or physical alterations to the card stock. "Power erasing" may be slightly different as this may remove a light layer of the card fibers along with the pencil/ink mark so, in a sense, this does alter the original composition of the card. I think everybody would agree that the other things you mentioned (pressing to widen borders, trimming, etc) are alterations for that exact reason.

There will probably never be universal acceptance of soaking as there are some who feel that absolutely anything that changes any aspect of a card as it is originally found is an alteration. In my opinion, if one subscribes to that viewpoint, they must view the card as already having been altered when the dirt/pencil/whatever was added and, in fact, any card that is not gem mint directly off the press would in some way be altered.

To answer the original question, by the way, E93s and E95s both soak very nicely
I'm a photo collector and don't profess to have any knowledge regarding to cards, but... according to Marc's belief, wouldn't taking a spoon to a card's corners be perfectly fine?

Quoting Marc's POV regarding soaking...

"Personally, I don't feel that soaking in water is an "alteration" because nothing unnatural or unoriginal is being added to the card or removed from the card in any way. "
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  #9  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:48 AM
marcdelpercio marcdelpercio is offline
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Jimmy,
I would consider spooning out a crease to be physically altering the card itself, though I wouldn't put it on the same level as trimming, rebuilding or recoloring where something is actually added to or removed from the card. In other words, I'd say it is a "minor" alteration.

Soaking in water does not physically change or manipulate the card but instead only removes foreign substances that were never a part of the card so I don't see this as an alteration to the card at all. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:56 AM
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if you soak then press it, card will be thinner but longer...that's changing the appearance of the card.

it's a slippery road. many people are for soaking, but getting distilled water, the unnatural act of soaking paper into water, then carefully putting card onto wax paper wedged between 18 war and peaces waiting for card to dry out...doesn't sound like a fun or relaxing saturday afternoon for me (when it was a hobby).

but to answer OP, e93/e95 soak well...moreso than e94/e98.

Last edited by chaddurbin; 12-04-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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  #11  
Old 12-04-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcdelpercio View Post
Jimmy,
I would consider spooning out a crease to be physically altering the card itself, though I wouldn't put it on the same level as trimming, rebuilding or recoloring where something is actually added to or removed from the card. In other words, I'd say it is a "minor" alteration.

Soaking in water does not physically change or manipulate the card but instead only removes foreign substances that were never a part of the card so I don't see this as an alteration to the card at all. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.
Let me ask you this Marc; What happens to the card once you soak it, if you let it dry without pressing it? Just straight out of the water and lay it on a paper towel. How does the card look after that?

It seems to me that the book pressing is absolutely the same thing as using a spoon to press the card.

Best, Jimmy
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  #12  
Old 12-04-2010, 12:31 PM
marcdelpercio marcdelpercio is offline
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Originally Posted by thekingofclout View Post
Let me ask you this Marc; What happens to the card once you soak it, if you let it dry without pressing it? Just straight out of the water and lay it on a paper towel. How does the card look after that?

It seems to me that the book pressing is absolutely the same thing as using a spoon to press the card.

Best, Jimmy
Jimmy,
I understand what you are saying but I think there is a big difference between pressing a card to the extent that it is widened and/or creases are removed and simply placing it between two books so it dries flat. I have soaked hundreds of cards and dried them between two books. I can honestly say that this has never removed even the lightest wrinkles or creases. If anything, it can sometimes reveal even more surface flaws that may have been somewhat hidden by the other substances on the card. In my experience, all soaking has accomplished was to remove dirt, glue or paste residue, and other foreign debris from the card...which was exactly my goal.

I'm sure there are ways to remove creases from cards. I do not know how to do this, nor would I attempt to if I did. To me, this crosses the line into physically altering the card.
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  #13  
Old 12-04-2010, 01:45 PM
FrankWakefield FrankWakefield is offline
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Seems to me that many of the really nice T206s that folks collect, the really good ones that are slabbed, those cards survived as they did because they went straight into a scrapbook 100 years ago. The cards that the kids played with, that were carried in pockets and grimy hands, those cards are the ones we see today that are well worn. Those really nice slabbed cards were most likely soaked off of a scrapbook page 20 to 30 years ago. That's the reality of it. Even for the sacrosanct who abhor soaking... those guys most likely have soaked cards in those high number slabs.

Wonderfully well, Ed. That's how they'll soak.
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  #14  
Old 12-04-2010, 02:02 PM
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My curiosity is peaked. Have never thought about trying it before. When you soak the cards, is it just a mix of water and a little soap?
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  #15  
Old 12-04-2010, 02:09 PM
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A simple search of the archive using either the word soak or soaking produced, among others, links to these three informative threads:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=soak

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=soaking

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=soaking

Last edited by Rob D.; 12-04-2010 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 12-04-2010, 02:10 PM
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^^ Thanks.

Last edited by Vol; 12-04-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-04-2010, 03:43 PM
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Default I wouldn't soak E98s!

E98s tend to flake sometimes. Check out about 3 of them on ebay in the BINs and you will see what I mean. Once they start flaking and peeling, they don't stop, even in a slab. They get worse and worse. My theory is that soaking on purpose or just getting wet somehow over the years accidently has caused these E98s to end up like this. Of course, I have never tried it myself on any E98s, so I'm not exactly sure that my theory is correct. Personally, I think it is wrong to alter a card in any way and to me soaking is altering. Now, don't get me wrong, if you want to do it for your personal benefit, do whatever you want with your card. I , myself, have never tried it because I'm afraid I would screw something up and ruin one of my cards!

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  #18  
Old 12-04-2010, 04:15 PM
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Quan and Tim,

Thank you for the insights that all E cards might not be alike when it comes to how they react to soaking.

Last edited by Rob D.; 12-04-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-04-2010, 04:28 PM
marcdelpercio marcdelpercio is offline
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Quote:
Personally, I think it is wrong to alter a card in any way and to me soaking is altering.
Tim (and others who think that soaking is altering),
Would you consider it an alteration when the dirt/glue/paste was originally added to the card? If so, all of these soaked cards are already altered so you really are not changing anything...merely making a soiled altered card into a less soiled altered card. If not, then please explain what you feel constitues an alteration.

I totally agree with you, by the way, about E98s. Especially on those that have begun flaking in any way, soaking can be disaterous. I would put E94s and E97s in this category as well.

Last edited by marcdelpercio; 12-04-2010 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:49 PM
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For clarity, I'm going to go up there and edit my post of this morning, to specify that E93's and E95's soak well. I didn't say all E cards do, but maybe someone unknowingly thought so. Cracker Jack cards soak well, by the way. But since the original poster was asking about E93s and E95s, that was what I was answering about.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:49 PM
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The reason for various E issues flaking when soaked has to do with the clay coated paper that was used, the clay coating content varied from the suppliers to the different printers and thus some react differently than others. If you were to lithograph directly on cardboard stock you would have had a severe case of ink bleeding, the clay coated paper accepted the ink and held it quite nicely.

Regardless of whether you approve or dissaprove of this issue, many of the nicer N,T and E cards that exist today were saved in scrapbooks with simple flour paste and hence soaked out. This causes no alteration nor intent to deceive. None of this "stretches" the card, that is an entirely different ploy used by card doctors to soak, press roll and trim a card.(a story for another thread).

The grading companies do not or cannot in many instances detect this simple soaking and do not deduct for it, as they do not deem it an "alteration". It is a simple fact of collecting vintage cards.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:52 PM
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Bravo, sb1 !!!
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:56 PM
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it's alteration to me if it's an act of deceipt. glue/paste added onto card for display purposes on notebooks/covers way back was simple hobby fun. trying to take it off now or erasing serves no purpose other than making card look better/enhance value.

both for/against have their reasons and justifications. up to you where you want to draw the line...
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:07 PM
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Might be deceit.


Hmmmm.... if a card has paste and scrapbook remnants on the back, then it should be left on there. Otherwise, to remove it, would result in an 'altered' card, which would then be worth less. So the card is left with stuff on the back so it will be worth more. Now I understand.


Again, I really think that most of the old slabbed cards in great condition have corners that have survived thanks to being scrapbooked, then soaked, and eventually slabbed. Collectors would buy scrapbooks, tear out the pages, and soak the pages in a bathtub overnight. Then separate out the cards from the pages in the morning.

I do understand that I see nothing wrong with a mere soaking. And that some think it is a travesty.
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:26 PM
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Default agree with SB1

SB1 nailed it. If you collect vintage cards you probably have some that have been soaked. Sometimes when soaking a card a little water stain will be left and sometimes not. IF the soaking can be detected by a water stain, the TPGs will deduct for it as they would a smudge or dirt, in my experience. Most times they can't tell and therefore won't deduct. It doesn't bother me to own, buy or sell cards that have had something erased or have been soaked. I feel the same way about anything that can be taken off of a card that wasn't there from date of mfg, and is taken off with water and/or an eraser (that is the extent of my leniency). Everybody has their own view but I don't personally think these previous things constitute "alterations", in the trimming, bleaching, stretching sense of the word. We have had good discussions as Rob linked to. And btw, power erasing is in fact taking off layer(s) of paper, so to me that is altering in a bad way.
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:46 PM
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Ask yourself a couple of questions. When buying a card, if it had been soaked would you want to know. And if when selling a card, if you have soaked it are you going to volunteer that information to the buyer. If you answer yes to the first and no to the second then I think you think soaking is altering a card.
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:59 PM
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Ask yourself a couple of questions. When buying a card, if it had been soaked would you want to know. And if when selling a card, if you have soaked it are you going to volunteer that information to the buyer. If you answer yes to the first and no to the second then I think you think soaking is altering a card.
I personally don't care and don't ask every time I buy a card, if it has been soaked. I can't actually ever remember asking if a card I was buying had been soaked. I just don't care. I have probably soaked 2-3 cards in my life and only to get some residue or paper off of them. I have erased a few marks from cards too. If folks ask, I will tell, but about 95% of the cards I sell are graded anyway. And of course, I abhor any alterations other than what I have stated. I do draw a line .

I should add this view is for my personal collecting and personal selling. In our auctions we do nothing at all, ever, except for sending a card to get graded.
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:04 PM
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I've "altered" a card three times in my collecting history.

I've soaked two cards....one successfully and one not.



And I've removed a staple from a card. To me it was about the same as soaking...trying to remove something that wasn't supposed to be there. Even though it left me two nice little holes...I didn't have the whole dang staple still clipped through the card.
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:06 PM
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I agree, I've never asked but I would like to know. Among the litany of things that are done to cards, I think that soaking in "water" and using a gum eraser to remove a stray pencil mark are minor issues. I do think that it could be argued that you are changing the card from its current state and some folks might call that an alteration. That's all I am saying.
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:13 PM
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I'm not saying I have a problem with soaking a card but I do feel it's an alteration. The purpose in soaking the card is to change something about it with the process correct? Isn't that change an alteration?

Edit: I'm ignorant about soaking and have never done it so I don't know anything about the process.
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:15 PM
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I'm not saying I have a problem with soaking a card but I do feel it's an alteration. The purpose in soaking the card is to change something about it with the process correct? Isn't that change an alteration?

Edit: I'm ignorant about soaking and have never done it so I don't know anything about the process.

Tim, just curious....so you wouldn't try to remove a staple from a card either?
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:16 PM
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I agree, I've never asked but I would like to know. Among the litany of things that are done to cards, I think that soaking in "water" and using a gum eraser to remove a stray pencil mark are minor issues. I do think that it could be argued that you are changing the card from its current state and some folks might call that an alteration. That's all I am saying.
No doubt some folks will think soaking and/or erasing are alterations. They are. But they are altering it back to being closer to it's original state, so in that aspect, I am actually altering them back to be closer to when they were originally distributed. I should reiterate I very seldom do anything at all....I just collect cards and I am not a high grade collector, so well loved cards are fine by me....I think vg is my favorite condition and I don't mind pr-fr cards that have better eye appeal . best regards
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:19 PM
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The purpose in soaking the card is to change something about it with the process correct? Isn't that change an alteration?
No, that is not how I see "soaking". The few times I have soaked a card it was to take residue or paper remnants off. I don't consider it changing the card from the way it was originally mfg'd. It is semantics though and, as many others said, it is altering, just not in a bad way (to me, or most).
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  #34  
Old 12-04-2010, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by asphaltman View Post
Tim, just curious....so you wouldn't try to remove a staple from a card either?
I'm not saying I wouldn't soak a card or remove a staple from it. I just feel whether it's an acceptable alteration or not, it is an alteration to the card. It is semantics as Leon said at this point.

To speak to the quoted question...if I was to remove a staple their would be evidence that the staple had been their. Soaking to remove a foreign substance could leave no evidence that it was there in the first place.
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  #35  
Old 12-04-2010, 06:46 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Perhaps one's reason for soaking is a part of this discussion, too.

Say a collector is working on a raw T206 which he houses in 15-pocket sheets. And he buys a scrapbook with a large group of T206's in it. He's going to want to remove the cards so that he can combine them with the rest of his set. I can't imagine that anyone would find this in any way objectionable.

On the other hand if one soaked those very same cards, sent them in for grading, and they came back 7's and 8's, without the grading company detecting that they were soaked, then I could see it creating a problem for some collectors.

Either way, not only do I not see anything wrong with soaking, I think cards should be removed from scrapbooks. The acids on that cheap scrapbook paper can't be good, and some of the glue isn't so hot either. If a collector asked my opnion I would recommend he get the cards removed.
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2010, 06:48 PM
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Barry,
Your example is absent an intent to deceive and therefore different than one with it.
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  #37  
Old 12-04-2010, 06:52 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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Jeff- my second example, where the cards were submitted and came back with high grades, could be interpreted by some as deception. I don't feel that way but I understand why it would bother people. For the record, I've never soaked any cards myself, not sent them to a conservator to be soaked. Not even once.
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  #38  
Old 12-04-2010, 07:59 PM
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Default Interesting topic that I have never really thought about before.

This soaking thing is really something I've never really thought about before. I never thought about doing it to a card that I have owned because if I tried , I would screw something up and ruin my card! When buying, I never really have thought about a card if it was soaked or not. I have thought about other types of alterations when buying such as trimming, ironing out creases, etc., but soaking would be way down on my worry list of alterations; like I said I never really thought about it before until this thread. That being said, I guess I would still consider it an alteration...BUT IF I FOUND OUT ONE OF MY CARDS WAS SOAKED, I WOULDN'T CONSIDER IT ANY BIG DEAL. REALLY I DON"T CARE MUCH. I just wouldn't do it that's all.

Let me explain why I think soaking is altering. I look at cards as historical objects. For example, many of you know I love E98s. When I get an E98 that is 100 years old, I consider anything that might be on it- candy stains, writing (For example, someone put l.f., say in period ink, on the back of a card to signify the player's position), old tape, glue, scrapbook residue, etc.- to be just part of the history of that card. To me, these so called "alterations" to the origional card happened before cards were thought to be "collector's items". Anything done to remove these things from the card's history to me is alteration. But again, removing something as insignificant as scrapbook residue is really no big deal to me. I don't have a problem with this type of alteration, though to me its still alteration. I do have a problem with trimming, rebacking, recoloring, etc. because you are trying to put something back- sharp corners, color, backing, etc.- that was lost throughout the years.

By the way, really neat information by sb1 on the clay content of paper. I never knew anything about that sort of stuff. I just know that E98s can flake something awful!

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  #39  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:23 PM
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If I soaked a bunch of T206s off of a scrapbook page, sent them to be graded, and they came back 7's, then I'd have no qualms about it. I don't doubt that the other 7's that had been graded were from scrapbooks; at least most of them were.

Soaking doesn't alter the card. The card remains the same. The dirt, paste, scrapbook paper, tobacco bits, they aren't altered either, they're merely safely disengaged from the card.

When I buy or trade for a T206 I don't ask if it had been soaked. Once I get the card if it looks like it needs soaking then eventually I get around to doing that, most of the time. If I were to ask it would only be to see if the seller/trader had already tried soaking so I could avoid wasting time doing it. Ideally, I'd be happy if they'd already soaked off the dirt and all. Now I'm not advocating bleaching, spooning, stretching nor trimming. This entire matter (ie collectors thinking soaking a T206 is wrong) remains unbelievable to me... collectors who were collecting in the 50s and 60s and 70s soaked old tobacco cards without batting an eye. But of course there weren't slabs back then, a fellow could hold his card, could touch it, and see and feel what he had.
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  #40  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:16 PM
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bye

Last edited by E93; 12-04-2010 at 11:17 PM.
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  #41  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:32 PM
rarerookies rarerookies is offline
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Anything done to a card that makes it more appealing is in my opinion altering the card. You don't touch up the Mona Lisa and you don't touch and original card with 100 years of dirt, tobacco, etc.


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Originally Posted by FrankWakefield View Post
If I soaked a bunch of T206s off of a scrapbook page, sent them to be graded, and they came back 7's, then I'd have no qualms about it. I don't doubt that the other 7's that had been graded were from scrapbooks; at least most of them were.

Soaking doesn't alter the card. The card remains the same. The dirt, paste, scrapbook paper, tobacco bits, they aren't altered either, they're merely safely disengaged from the card.

When I buy or trade for a T206 I don't ask if it had been soaked. Once I get the card if it looks like it needs soaking then eventually I get around to doing that, most of the time. If I were to ask it would only be to see if the seller/trader had already tried soaking so I could avoid wasting time doing it. Ideally, I'd be happy if they'd already soaked off the dirt and all. Now I'm not advocating bleaching, spooning, stretching nor trimming. This entire matter (ie collectors thinking soaking a T206 is wrong) remains unbelievable to me... collectors who were collecting in the 50s and 60s and 70s soaked old tobacco cards without batting an eye. But of course there weren't slabs back then, a fellow could hold his card, could touch it, and see and feel what he had.
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  #42  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rarerookies View Post
Anything done to a card that makes it more appealing is in my opinion altering the card. You don't touch up the Mona Lisa and you don't touch and original card with 100 years of dirt, tobacco, etc.
Not that it matters, but they do touch the Mona Lisa.
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:48 PM
rarerookies rarerookies is offline
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so is that restoring it or altering?


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Not that it matters, but they do touch the Mona Lisa.
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  #44  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:50 PM
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besides, everyone knows that the real mona lisa was destroyed along with the holy grail in indiana jones and the last crusade


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Not that it matters, but they do touch the Mona Lisa.
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2010, 02:55 AM
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The card was not issued with dirt on it...

I have on many occasions used a damp tissue to remove dirt from the surface of a card... the same thing they do to old paintings, they remove the grime to bring out the original color. Its not altering the card or painting, its cleaning it and leaves no residue.

But I wouldnt soak the whole card to remove a stain... its a bit risky, and some stains will actually spread more.
I would only soak a card completely if it were glued into a scrapbook..... to remove the back paper and as much of the glue as possible.
To me the risk of a little water damage is much nicer than a huge paper pull from "dry pulling" a card from a scrapbook. If a grader cant tell there was water used, its all good by me. Even if they detect a water stain, they only downgrade, they dont reject.
Heck many Cuban cards have been rained on and have mildew stains from the humidity too. Water is natural, but can damage too.

Altering = trimming a piece off, recoloring a bad spot or print defect, rebuilding corners, filling in pinholes, or gluing rips or a paper pulls back down, rebacking (ie N172s), or chemical bleaching out stains (ie E145's), etc.

Last edited by fkw; 12-05-2010 at 03:12 AM.
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  #46  
Old 12-05-2010, 05:16 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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You can make the argument that the person who originally glued the cards into an album altered them by adding glue to the backs, and by removing them wouldn't you be reversing that alteration and returning them to their natural state?
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  #47  
Old 12-05-2010, 07:21 AM
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I find this kind of funny. Million dollar paintings are washed, restored in many different ways and just plain made to look better, and thats OK. But a penny baseball card is soaked and my god what have you done? Soak em all you want. Your making them look better and more original, like the painting.
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  #48  
Old 12-05-2010, 07:37 AM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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Default For those who consider soaking a form of altering...

is removing a wax stain altering as well???
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  #49  
Old 12-05-2010, 10:47 AM
rarerookies rarerookies is offline
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you guys are alterning the cards specifically to increase the value of the cards. Do you disclose to the buyer that the card they are buying went from a 6 to a 7.5 because you soaked them in water?
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  #50  
Old 12-05-2010, 11:18 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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We're just having a theoretical discussion. I don't see anybody on this thread offering any cards for sale. And for the record, soaked cards are still genuine baseball cards; aged reprints are not. Don't you see a distinction there?
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