NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Babe Ruth Cards
t206 Ty Cobb
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Baseball T201-T217
Baseball E90-E107
T205 Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Goudey Cards
Vintage Baseball Memorabilia
Baseball Exhibit Cards
Baseball Strip Cards
Baseball Baking Cards
Sporting News Cards
Play Ball Cards
Joe DiMaggio Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Bowman 1951-1955
Football Cards

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-26-2012, 04:30 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default Addie Joss auto?

Hey everyone,

Belated happy new year, as I haven't posted in a while.

I noticed that in Lew Lipset's Old Judge April auction there is a listing for a "Rare 1905 Raymond Kahn postcard with Addie Joss addressed to “Norman Joss” in his handwriting with COA"

The description notes that "Kevin Keating has verified that it is Joss’ incredibly rare handwriting and has provided a COA."

Has anyone seen a Joss auto? I scoured the web but couldn't find an image of his signature. If anyone has one, could you kindly post a scan on Net54? Given the era when Joss played and his untimely early death, his may be one of the rarest of HOF autos.

Thanks,
Michael
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-26-2012, 07:14 AM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
KEVIN MIZE
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VALDOSTA, GA.
Posts: 6,301
Default

Extremely rare autograph, especially when you factor in that he died either 1910 or 1911.....
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:13 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

"Joss' playing career was cut short when he died suddenly from tuberculous meningitis on April 14, 1911."

Wikipedia

Scott Langert wrote a great SABR-published bio on Joss called King of Pitchers.

Later this year, Joss' writings as a newspaper reporter/columnist will be published as a volume (Addie Joss on Baseball: Collected Newspaper Columns and World Series Reports, 1907-1909).

But the question remains, have Joss-signed cheques or legal documents (or frankly any cut auto) survived and ever made it to the auction block?

Thanks,
Michael
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:27 PM
Fred's Avatar
Fred Fred is offline
Fred
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,189
Default

I'd have to figure that IF it's a real Joss signature and someone can really prove this then that thing is going to sell for $$$$$

So, 5 year old Norman gets a post card with his dad's picture on it and he his dad decides to sign it within the next 4 years because he's afraid his son won't recognize him? I don't get it. Why would Joss sign it and comment that it's himself standing on the left? He would have known it was himself and so would his son.

Does anybody else feel this same way?
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something
cool you're looking to find a new home for.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:50 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,195
Default

It's not being sold as an autograph. It's offered as Joss' handwriting to his son--someone else added Adrian's identification later.
__________________
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this:
If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle.
We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.
It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.
Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” ---Carl Sagan
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:14 PM
tbob's Avatar
tbob tbob is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,649
Default

How did Kevin Keating verify the handwriting was Joss'? What did he compare it to? It could be someone in Cleveland who was a friend of the family who saw Joss' picture and thought that it son would like to see it. I'm skeptical. Hope it's genuine.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:16 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

I also wondered how Kevin did the authentication.

A quick Google search produced the following article on Keating on the PSA website: Catching Up with Kevin Keating

Apparently Keating who runs Quality Autographs, graduated from the US Military Academy at West Point with a 4.0 GPA (with a major in Chinese and Far East Studies) and later earned a master's degree from Johns Hopkins.

Unfortunately, Google didn't reveal any other specimens of Joss' handwriting...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-27-2012, 01:20 PM
jtschantz jtschantz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 397
Default

I have searched long and hard for a Joss autograph with no luck at all. I live in Toledo OH and have visited Addie's grave site (Woodlawn cemetary) and driven by his house (it sold for $800 a few years ago!). A friend of mine visited with his grandaughter for an article he was writing for the Toledo Blade 25 years ago. The grandaughter gave the writer a panoramic picture from the Addie Joss Tribute (all star) game that was originally presented to Addie's wife. I have never been able to find anything that had his signature.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-27-2012, 01:47 PM
packs packs is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,064
Default

It seems like a stretch to attribute the postcard to Joss. Without running a census report, who is to say that there wasn't more than one Norman Joss in Toledo? If there is a complete and fully verified Addie Joss handwritten note that the authenticator compared the handwriting to I would love to see it. I bet it's a beauty.

Last edited by packs; 03-27-2012 at 01:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:33 PM
HexsHeroes HexsHeroes is offline
Vincent Hecksel
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lansing Michigan
Posts: 528
Default I seem to recall . . .

.

. . . that Kevin Keating acquired a Joss signed legal document (deed, loan document, will?) for inclusion into his own personal baseball HOFer autograph collection.

I could be mistaken, but I thought a Joss handwritten letter had also surfaced over the past 10-15 years too.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-27-2012, 10:58 PM
sago sago is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
It seems like a stretch to attribute the postcard to Joss. Without running a census report, who is to say that there wasn't more than one Norman Joss in Toledo? If there is a complete and fully verified Addie Joss handwritten note that the authenticator compared the handwriting to I would love to see it. I bet it's a beauty.
I searched for the name in all databases on ancestry.com. Only one Norman Joss in Toledo, born in 1902.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:18 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

Sago: that's some great, swift net research. Thanks.

It settles whether this could conceivably be a postcard to Joss' son. I think the point remains though that it is impossible for us to verify that this is Addie's actual writing without exemplars.

Since Joss was also a journalist, I wonder why drafts of his articles or any checques or legal documents bearing his signature have not surfaced.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:24 AM
packs packs is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,064
Default

Wow. One Norman Joss. Was Addie listed as the father? Now I'm dying to see some Joss notes.

Last edited by packs; 03-28-2012 at 01:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-28-2012, 12:07 PM
Fred's Avatar
Fred Fred is offline
Fred
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,189
Default

Yes, Norman was Addie's son.

The following is an an excerpt from an article about Addie's death. Note the Fulton street address is also the address on the post card:

Adrian (Addie) Joss, a Toledo resident and star pitcher of the Cleveland team, had died suddenly on April 14, 1911, at the age of 31. He left behind his wife Lillian and their two children, eight year old Norman and four year old Ruth, in the family home at 2440 Fulton Street in Toledo. After the funeral the Cleveland team determined to hold a day to honor the pitcher and raise money for the family, but the management soon became bogged down in on-the-field problems and the idea was put on the back burner.
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something
cool you're looking to find a new home for.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-29-2012, 04:45 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

Actually, it is kind of a sad story.

Norman Joss died on Nov 21, 1977 at the age of 75. Two months later, on January 30, 1978, his father was finally elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

See: Joss Kin Happy, Sad with his Election (The Blade Toledo, Feb 1, 1978)

There is a nice remembrance of Norman in the Blade's April 27th edition, where he is described as a "modest man", "a soft-spoken fellow."

This article also mentions that Norman gave photos and momentos to the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

Does anyone here know anyone on the staff at the Baseball HOF who might be able to tell us more about their Joss memorabilia?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-29-2012, 10:30 PM
Tom Hufford Tom Hufford is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 154
Default

Actually, there was a second fellow named Norman Joss, although I haven't found him in the US Census records.

The Social Security Death Index and the Florida Death Index show that a Norman Joss died November 17, 1971 in Pinellas County. He was born on April 16 1906. Social Security records list him as a resident of Michigan when he obtained his SS card, before 1951.

I have no idea if he was kin to Addie and Addie's son, Norman.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-30-2012, 06:44 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

A scrapbook surfaced last November that included a photo of the Joss family, including young Norman and his sister Ruth.

See the photo.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg joss111.jpg (33.1 KB, 439 views)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:01 PM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default Scan of the Joss COA from Keating (via Lew Lipset)

I just exchanged emails with Lew Lipset. He very kindly gave me permission to post on Net 54, the higher resolution scans of the postcard, as well as the COA from Kevin Keating who certifies the handwriting as Joss'.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lot 235f COA.jpg (35.7 KB, 366 views)
File Type: jpg Lot 235b COA.jpg (77.2 KB, 371 views)
File Type: jpg Lot 235b.jpg (48.0 KB, 368 views)
File Type: jpg Lot 235f.jpg (58.6 KB, 367 views)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-02-2012, 09:15 AM
drc drc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,621
Default

I'm no Joss autograph expert, but will note that people sign and note family photos and pictures in different ways and know that many families wish relatives would have specifically named 'the obvious' of who's who in a photo as no one knows who are those people in the photo in the family album anymore. What may be obvious today may not be in 50 years. So, if anything, Joss noting which one he is for posterity was a prudent move, and many would do the same.

I have an elderly aunt who labels all photos-- which often is essential for the family in identifying who's who. In a class photo of my grandmother that already had all the classmates' names printed at the bottom, my aunt circled my grandmother's head and wrote in her name. Obviously redundant information, but that's they way my aunt did things. My dad liked her labeling but tried to convince her to write these things on the backs of the photos, not the front images!

Last edited by drc; 04-02-2012 at 09:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-02-2012, 09:44 AM
canjond's Avatar
canjond canjond is offline
Jon Canfield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,488
Default

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Keating hasn't said Joss identified himeself on the postcard... instead Joss' handwriting is the address (addressing the card to his son). So, the "partial" signature is the fact that he and his son share the same last name; i.e., there is an authentic "Joss" signature. I don't think Kevin has indiciated who may have added the identification.
__________________
For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-02-2012, 09:45 AM
canjond's Avatar
canjond canjond is offline
Jon Canfield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,488
Default

I just saw Todd said the same thing above...
__________________
For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-02-2012, 11:04 PM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

Does anyone know if PSA or JSA has ever authenticated a Joss signature?

Last edited by michael3322; 04-02-2012 at 11:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-05-2012, 08:50 PM
Rob D. Rob D. is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,422
Default

It appears that the speculation posted in this thread has had quite an effect. The postcard is at only $11,000-plus with a couple of hours to go.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:34 PM
Bicem's Avatar
Bicem Bicem is offline
Jeff 'Prize-ner'
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,827
Default

Wtf?!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-07-2012, 08:27 AM
michael3322 michael3322 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 140
Default

Rob - Given the extremely high final auction price, I think it is hard to imagine that this thread had any impact. In fact, I started it to try to ascertain whether or not the postcard could be linked to Addie Joss in a way that could be independently corroborated. I couldn't find a signature of Joss' and Lew emailed me the higher resolution scans of the postcard and Kevin's COA (all of which I posted). Apparently Kevin has seen Joss' hand-writing, however none of this is posted in a publicly viewable format on Kevin's website. I would still love to see an authenticated Joss auto, and despite the 1900+ views of this thread, no one chimed in to present an image of one.

Last edited by michael3322; 04-07-2012 at 09:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-28-2012, 12:42 PM
MiracleBraves1914 MiracleBraves1914 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6
Default Joss Auto

Hi guys, I'm new to the site and joined it after reading this thread. I apologize for the length of this post, I just wanted to give proper back story to the picture I'm about to share. I'd imagine I'm one of the younger folks registered here (27), but I've been actively collecting pre-WWI baseball memorabilia since I was around 13, when someone in my small North Carolina hometown found a beautiful Joss t206 card in an old book and my mom managed to get it for me for my birthday. Joss became the main focus of my early collecting and, over the years, I feel like I've amassed a fairly decent Joss collection, between cards, premiums and newspaper clippings (many of which I've never seen elsewhere).
Naturally, as my interest grew, I began to investigate, like many of you, whether or not an autograph of his actually existed. In late 2006 or early 2007, I was fortunate enough to get to participate in an estate sale of a prominent Texas card and memorabilia dealer. Among his personal items, under glass in a nailed-shut old box, was the piece of paper you see in the picture.
The estate had not taken steps to authenticate it (as many auctions will simply look online for a comparable item for price considerations and, as we know, internet searches for "Addie Joss autograph" are rather fruitless), but as the story went, this was the old man's pride and joy and he swore up and down it was Joss's signature. Being that I also had nothing to compare it to, I bought it at a very, very reasonable price on good faith and a hunch.
Over the past few years, I've searched often for any comparison (I can't really afford the PSA system and I would be very uncomfortable putting this in the mail), and until the Old Judge auction listed the postcard a few months ago, I was beginning to wonder if I'd ever get to put more than a "maybe" on this signature.
Earlier in the summer, I downloaded the high quality images of the Norman Joss postcard and waited with baited breath to finally have something to compare handwriting to. I fully expected to be disappointed. However, after looking once, shaking my head and looking again, I saw similarities in the handwriting I never would have dreamed possible. I think I may have found one of baseball's Holy Grails. Inscribed on a roughly 2x4 corner of what appears to be an old shopping list is "Addie Joss, Cleveland '11" in pen.
I'm really interested to see what you guys think about it. Most of my "baseball friends" have never even heard of him. I'm not trying to sell it, at all, but after reading this thread and seeing so many people looking for something that I'm fairly sure I've finally found, I couldn't not share the joy. Can't wait to see what you guys think!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Atlanta-Decatur-20120828-00254.jpg (84.0 KB, 187 views)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-28-2012, 12:58 PM
gnaz01's Avatar
gnaz01 gnaz01 is offline
Gr3g N@z@r3th
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,233
Default

WOW!!!!!!!!!! If this is a real Addie sig, you just won the lottery my friend!! It sure bears a VERY strong resemblance to the postcard he wrote to his son!! Good luck!!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-28-2012, 01:24 PM
packs packs is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,064
Default

Man. That is something.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-28-2012, 01:39 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 31,127
Default

That is a really neat discovery MiracleBraves1914. I copied this thread over to our autograph side of the board so the autograph guys can comment if they want to. That's an exciting discovery if this is in fact a real Joss autograph. Thanks for sharing!!

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...70#post1031170




.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 08-28-2012 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
addie joss, hof, kevin keating, lew lipset



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How much would an Addie Joss auto be worth? michael3322 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 12-22-2010 01:25 AM
Book Review: Addie Joss - King of the Pitchers wolterse Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 6 12-13-2010 11:54 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:46 AM.


ebay GSB