Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[CobbSpikedMe]

PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.

[Bigdaddy]

So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified? Do they get the Scarlet Letter - 'A' for Altered - stamped on them? Do they continue to reside in their current holders? I would assume that if (and I don't see this happening anytime soon) PSA buys back the cards, then would they regrade them with an 'Altered' designation on the flip. And sell them back into the market?

If so, what would keep someone from breaking one out and resubmitting? Maybe ruffing up the edges a bit and looking for a numerical grade?

I believe Operation Bullpen items got stamped and donated to kids (at least the bats and balls). I assume the paper items were destroyed.

[swarmee]

https://www.psacard.com/fees/

CARD AUTHENTICATION & GRADING
PREMIUM ELITE *$5000
Any card with a declared value of $100,000 or higher must be submitted at this service level.

PREMIUM PLUS *$3000
Maximum declared value of $99,999

PREMIUM *$1000
Maximum declared value of $24,999

WALK-THROUGH *$500
Maximum declared value of $9,999

SUPER EXPRESS *$200
Maximum declared value of $4,999

EXPRESS *$75
Maximum declared value of $1,999 and all T3s must be submitted at this service level or higher.

REGULAR *$20
Maximum declared value of $499

The really interesting thing is that not all cards are $50K cards or $1K cards. There is a wide mix of values of these cards. So if Moser or PWCC were submitting them properly, they would be in multiple orders all the way up and down this list. So the theory that 1 rogue grader would get all of Moser's submissions and pass the majority of those altered cards seems pretty shot. And the theory that this is only happening because of the 2018 grading backlog and the hiring of new employees this winter caused it, well many of the Certs found already were from 4+ years ago.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified?

I asked that as one of about 100 questions I submitted for PWCC to answer in the Blowout thread in the Member Feedback section. I presume PSA will hold onto them currently in case the FBI comes knocking.

[swarmee]

Here's a new wrinkle:
https://twitter.com/brentandbecca/st...22959170560000



Happened 10 years ago at a company that presumably gives out 9.5 grades, per the link. Basically, "Spend a bunch of money with us, and I can promise you great grades that get better over time." Brentandbecca is a card seller that busts hundreds of cases of product annually and sells sets and inserts/autographs from those online. Doesn't grade because he didn't like being promised grades.

This was mentioned in the thread about the former Beckett employee that is continually getting BGS 10 Black Labels on such a high percentage of his submissions that it would be statistically impossible. For those that think there is no discernible difference between a PSA 9 and 10, BGS scores cards on a 9, 9.5, 10 subgrade system in four different components: centering, surface, edges, and corners. If your card gets an average of 9.5 on those subgrades, it gets a 9.5 Gem Mint. If it has three 10 subgrades, and one 9.5, it gets a standard Pristine 10. If all four subgrades are BGS 10
"quality", it gets a Pristine 10 BLACK LABEL.

Brian Gray of Leaf Trading Cards, checkered history he has as well, currently employs the former Beckett employee, and intends to look into the submissions for any funny business. But an audit of BGS's process in giving out grades to customers is coming.

[Peter_Spaeth]

D304 Wagner 2.5 to 4.5

Now working to regain your trust.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=100

[irv]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.psacard.com/fees/

CARD AUTHENTICATION & GRADING
PREMIUM ELITE *$5000
Any card with a declared value of $100,000 or higher must be submitted at this service level.

PREMIUM PLUS *$3000
Maximum declared value of $99,999

PREMIUM *$1000
Maximum declared value of $24,999

WALK-THROUGH *$500
Maximum declared value of $9,999

SUPER EXPRESS *$200
Maximum declared value of $4,999

EXPRESS *$75
Maximum declared value of $1,999 and all T3s must be submitted at this service level or higher.

REGULAR *$20
Maximum declared value of $499

The really interesting thing is that not all cards are $50K cards or $1K cards. There is a wide mix of values of these cards. So if Moser or PWCC were submitting them properly, they would be in multiple orders all the way up and down this list. So the theory that 1 rogue grader would get all of Moser's submissions and pass the majority of those altered cards seems pretty shot. And the theory that this is only happening because of the 2018 grading backlog and the hiring of new employees this winter caused it, well many of the Certs found already were from 4+ years ago.

That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by irv

That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?

It's more a liability issue of having an expensive card in their possession and it getting lost or damaged. Do you insure your Yugo and your Ferrari for the same price?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irv

That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?

Higher fees for more expensive stuff is pretty standard for authentications in other hobbies too.

If the expert is a real expert, the authenticity end of things can be very fast in a more informal setting. The guy who looked at a couple stamps for me at the 2006 international show took less than a minute for both. He didn't grade, but recommended getting a formal certificate for one but not the other. (One a fairly expensive and totally genuine stamp, the other an india paper proof that had been altered to appear to be the issued stamp (perforations added) a difference of a couple hundred at catalog value, and way more with the apparent centering. That centering was actually his first point against as they rarely come that well centered, and sell for multiples of catalog value.

[barrysloate]

I think the grading companies are well aware that they are minting money for their customers, so wouldn't these higher fees be more in line with "we're making a lot of money for you, therefore we want a piece of the action too."

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

D304 Wagner 2.5 to 4.5

Now working to regain your trust.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=100

A true crime of the worst degree.

[Scott L.]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think the grading companies are well aware that they are minting money for their customers, so wouldn't these higher fees be more in line with "we're making a lot of money for you, therefore we want a piece of the action too."

I think that's exactly right.

[perezfan]

Agree.... Barry nailed it.

[irv]

I tend to agree with Barry as well as it makes no sense to me that I have to pay a higher grading fee just to protect my own card?

I would think they would have insurance in case something were to happen to my card, no?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irv

I tend to agree with Barry as well as it makes no sense to me that I have to pay a higher grading fee just to protect my own card?

I would think they would have insurance in case something were to happen to my card, no?

That insurance would cost more the more value you have in the building.

If I'm grading cards, and you've sent in a nice 81 topps common... and I spill my coffee... I pretty much just pay you a few bucks for the wrecked card and maybe decide to not drink coffee at the desk. I probably don't even tell the ins co.

If you've sent me a Wagner... even a total rag of a card is what half a million?
If I tell the ins co that I'll regularly have a million + of other peoples stuff in the building at any time, they'll want a whole lot to insure that.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I have 6 figures of consigned goods insurance costs me barely $1,000/ year

[Peter_Spaeth]

Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496

And makes tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands. That fake rough cut has been fooling PSA graders for years it seems.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496

What’s crazy is that he took a large slice off one side to make it centered and he KNEW it would get past the graders!

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

What’s crazy is that he took a large slice off one side to make it centered and he KNEW it would get past the graders!

Evidently, a rough cut means a factory cut to all the graders at PSA.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.

oh you're not out of line. In fact I think youve hit the bullseye. This is exactly what I feel has been happening way before this trimming and flipping PWCC scam has been proven. They are 50% there, IMHO. Maybe Brent Mastro will sing like a canary? I can't see that priss wanting to go to jail. He would not do well there. They would wipe that s*** eating grin right off his face in a hurry.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by irv

I prefer "this stupid" to which my answer is yes, yes, they are this stupid.

Newsflash!! Brent doesn't give a shit people....

[ejharrington]

I saw this posted somewhere else but what is PSA's tolerance for size of the card? I think it was 1/32 or 1/64 of an inch but can't find it. Thanks.

[Marchillo]

I remember reading through the fake autograph thread a couple months ago with many people claiming “this is why I don’t buy autographs” etc. Also all the comments about PSA being the undisputed king for life. Figured at some point the graded card world would come crashing down to earth. Don’t get me wrong I dabble in autographs, raw and graded cards but I don’t/won’t pay huge premiums if a card is an 8 versus a 9 versus a 10. I’ve never understood the intrigue of the registry. Will be curious what this will all look like a year from now.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Newsflash!! Brent doesn't give a shit people....

It pains me to say it , but I agree with you on that.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by irv

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?

They charge more because if they screw up (like put a numerical grade on an altered card) they're on the hook to return more money if a buyer uses their guarantee.

[dwinters]

started with autographed cards....then high end (and lower) cards....and then autographs?

imagine if psa is this bad, how many fake autos are certed by them?

psa authentication is worthless.

[CMIZ5290]

Whether we want to admit it or not, this is where we are. NOWHERE!! I have been on the board for 10 years and the topics of Rick Probstein and Brent Huigens always, always, always keep coming up, since day one...And not a freaking thing gets done, period, end of story. This is a corrupt hobby, and the rich just keep on keepin on getting rich....We have thread after thread, but what in the Hell gets done? NOTHING Rick Probstein is the biggest dick in the Hobby, and he loves it....Brent is a chronic liar and he's used to it by now and laughs....

[egbeachley]

Kevin, part of me says you are probably right. But I’ve read on BO that folks are planning to distribute flyers at the National to get the word out and create an Altered Cert Number website to ensure items get removed from the Registry. That would be interesting especially if one of the insiders admits all their cards were altered in every submission, even where there is no “Before” picture.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I have 6 figures of consigned goods insurance costs me barely $1,000/ year

That's a pleasant surprise.

[Collect Equity]

Anyone following this story should definitely read this recently revived post and PWCCs response:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...09#post1885409

The funny thing is when I first was reading this post, I thought it was brand new and a little behind the curve because it seemed to be referencing something that everyone already knows is going on.

Now I realize it was 2-years ahead of its time!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Kevin, part of me says you are probably right. But I’ve read on BO that folks are planning to distribute flyers at the National to get the word out and create an Altered Cert Number website to ensure items get removed from the Registry. That would be interesting especially if one of the insiders admits all their cards were altered in every submission, even where there is no “Before” picture.

some people are planning on giving away these cards at the National

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by irv

That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?

VERY NICE! Have Scissorhands do some recoloring and trimming and you'll be around 15-20K. Send it in to brent mastro, he'll walk you through it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobbyVCP

Advertisement as a whole not just one client...we have many SCL, PSA, Lelands, PWCC, Just Rip It, R & R, etc...all those combined make up 7%

So why did you reinstate PWCC ads on your website? Do you think they're a good company to be promoting after all you've seen recently?

[Willjaimet]

Originally Posted by sayheykid54

From a pure business standpoint why would PWCC want to be linked to known card doctors who I believe are committing FRAUD?????? I think altering a card and misleading a potential buyer should be a punishable felony.

I disagree if a refund was given. Pwcc refunded all people who weren’t happy with their purchases. Nothing was ever sold as “not altered”. When you buy an expensive graded sportscard you should expect that is altered to some degree. So after a few people got upset, I spoke with Brent Huigens and agreed to buy back anything customers weren’t happy with.

[Willjaimet]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brent is not a victim of Moser, he's a co-conspirator. There's a reason why he only sells through Brent.

What proof do you have of this? Aren’t you an attorney for the MOB lol?

[Willjaimet]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Correct. PSA's multiple failures are the bigger threat to the hobby.

This widespread problem transcends PWCC. As long as the "card modifiers" continue to dupe PSA, these issues can and will rear their ugly head potentially anywhere.... eBay, Auction Houses, net54's BST, direct sales, trades, etc.

And why can't PSA just measure the cards, again? Has there been any response from them at all? It will be interesting to see if they ever acknowledge it, and how much their attorneys spin/downplay it. The power they have within the hobby is disgusting and shameful, and I wish that someone, somehow, some day could take them down.

There is so much more to catching alterations than simply measuring a card. Psa is inept at catching alterations and also are suspected of backdooring grades.

[Willjaimet]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’m not concerned about Brent staying in business. I’m concerned about him going to jail. You can worry about PSA.

Why does Brent deserve jail time? Wasn’t he selling an authenticated 3rd party asset? And to my knowledge anyone who was unhappy with their purchase was given a refund. So if no one got hurt financially where is the punishable crime? Half the people on here have done worse things than this.

[Willjaimet]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Martin, you’re aware that trying to stop discussion about Brent’s fraud wouldn’t stop a criminal investigation, right? Just checking.

From what I’ve heard Jeffrey, you’re the one who needs to be investigated. I’d chill out on casting stones from your glass house. I know what you did and you’re a total piece of garbage. I’m not going to expose it here because it’s not my issue but you are a dispicable human and deserve to spend the rest of your days in a box.

[Rhotchkiss]

Interesting thread bump, with 5 very provactive posts. Lots of new members on the board since the last post in July of 2019… this should be interesting.

I have only two comments/questions: (1) why on earth did you dig this up after 2.5 years? (2) I believe Jeff knows his stuff and is smart enough fully to comprehend what he posts on a public chat board.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Willjaimet

I disagree if a refund was given. Pwcc refunded all people who weren’t happy with their purchases. Nothing was ever sold as “not altered”. When you buy an expensive graded sportscard you should expect that is altered to some degree. So after a few people got upset, I spoke with Brent Huigens and agreed to buy back anything customers weren’t happy with.

So are you someone who altered and sold a lot of those altered cards through PWCC? That is what your post sounds like so figured I would ask.

I do agree that the majority of high end sports cards are altered in some way, especially vintage cards.

[Willjaimet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Feels like Mastro and Allen all over again.

How does this compare? The Masteo issues were so much worse if he did what they accused him of. A true shill bid is when a seller knows how much a buyer is willing to pay and then bid him up which is 100% theft. Pwcc offered refunds and also it would have been impossible for them to truly shill people because eBay was in the middle hiding the bid amounts.

[earlywynnfan]

How about putting your name on your posts?

Do you happen to work for Brent?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

How about putting your name on your posts?

Do you happen to work for Brent?

His full name is his ID. I have known Will, through the hobby, for many years...
.

[ullmandds]

https://www.sportscardradio.com/hero...up-break-scam/

not sure i'd want to do business with Will.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Willjaimet

From what I’ve heard Jeffrey, you’re the one who needs to be investigated. I’d chill out on casting stones from your glass house. I know what you did and you’re a total piece of garbage. I’m not going to expose it here because it’s not my issue but you are a dispicable human and deserve to spend the rest of your days in a box.

This is absolutely uncalled for


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Willjaimet

Why does Brent deserve jail time? Wasn’t he selling an authenticated 3rd party asset? And to my knowledge anyone who was unhappy with their purchase was given a refund. So if no one got hurt financially where is the punishable crime? Half the people on here have done worse things than this.

I only truthfully know of one...now.

Has PWCC contacted the buyers of your consignments and asked the buyers if they would like a refund as of yet? I could post the BODA Blowout thread if you would need help creating a list.

[rhettyeakley]

*grabs popcorn*

This is going to go well.

Why bump a 3 year old thread that wasn’t being discussed?

[Johnny630]

Nobody really cares anymore. Opinions have been formed people have drawn their conclusions and that’s that The hobby/industry has moved on.

Next

[1880nonsports]

Curious :-)