|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
I have no idea how I will be able to sell computers if I keep getting involved so much but anyway........ |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
I get moderator privileges on this one and want to say a bit more. I have about a half a dozen private emails from folks that have been in the hobby an average of 25 yrs....telling me to be careful on this. If anyone notices my wording above, and what I told Steve, is that the card has to be found to be conclusively printed circa 1930. Ink and cardstock alone won't do that. Corroborating evidence of some type will need to be there. Even with that being said, from the several experts, including SGC, that have examined this card.....I have gathered this is not a good fake. I do want to also thank everyone for looking out for me.....Ya' never know when I might hit a bump in the road so I will take all the help I can get ..take care... |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
I will give a few updates as we go along. Everyone can form your own opinion about it but I will provide the facts. I don't care to have too much commentary right now, but EVERYONE will have another chance to speak on the subject....Right now I am not sure what more can be accomplished, or said, than what is in the 125 post thread. I spoke with Mark H. and Marshall Fogel last night. Mark thanked me for trying to help. Marshall and I spoke about the way this is being handled and what would be best. I spoke with Steve just now and apprised him of that. Right now Steve is waiting for a call back from a conservator. Steve still wants it to be examined, which is fine...even though the ink and paper alone won't be enough to be definitive....however, if by some miracle, the process used to print the card was only done in the 1930's then that would be big news. Again, I am told by at least 6 extremely knowledgable folks, that have handled the card, that it's not good....but we are still making process towards resolution. Mark is willing to have Steve put the money in an escrow with Mark's lawyer. Steve is ok with this too. So that means Mark will be getting his money back. As I learn more I will update everyone. When the outcome is reached we can open this back up for debate....for now let's get some resolution though. For the record this is not exactly the way I would have done this if I were Steve and I have told Steve this.....However, it is being handled as quickly as possible....thanks much... |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
You guys can post away....this was never meant to be a private deal between Steve and I...I am only trying to help all concerned parties...if it is real, and someone else wants it, they can buy it....it's only cardboard....thanks |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: John
Leon, only one question you said if its proven to be real you will but it, if its real why wouldn't the person who bought it in the first place want to keep it? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
First of all maybe it was a mistake to lock this thread.....so for that...it's unlocked now. To say it was some private deal was kind of stupid imo. If it was private why would I be posting it? As for Mark keeping the card if it's real, it's still up to him, but he has indicated to me he doesn't want it now. I am totally open to buying it or not, if it can be proven to have been printed in circa 1930. Hope this helps explain.... |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: John
Leon, thanks for answering my question. It was more out of morbid curiosity than anything else. If it’s real would be a gem of an item huh? |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Bob
I don't think either party fared well in this ordeal. Steve Verkman probably lost a lot of potential customers and the buyer has had to agonize over a card which is, to use the term Lew Lipset used in his book, a "cinderella." |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Dylan
Leon you mentioned SGC having looked at the card. I read in the other thread that PSA had examined it, but not SGC as well. Has it just been sent off to SGC? If both SGC and PSA deem it as a counterfeit thats pretty conclusive for most people. If the paper and ink testing comes out to show its from around 1930 what would be the next step in conclusively establishing authenticity? Apparently no info has ever been found about this calender in Goudey records, how will anyone be able to verify it was actually produced by the Goudey Gum Company? |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
I was told by SGC, yesterday, that they had physically looked at this card around 8 mos ago (don't hold me or them to the exact time as they didn't remember it exactly) and they quickly deemed it counterfeit. Another big bullet against the card.....They didn't remember who sent it in....Steve told me this morning that he was unaware that they had ever looked at it....regards |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Mike
I'm no lawyer, but I would assume whoever submitted the card to SGC was directly involved in having the card resold without proper disclosure. Isn't that fraud? For example, if I somehow end up with a counterfeit $100 bill that was deemed so by an expert, even if I wasn't the original bad guy, I'm committing a crime if I sell (or spend) the bill without proper disclosure. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Joe D.
Leon, |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Bob
Yes, it would be interesting to know the timeline. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
I am not sure of the time line, guys....it is all second hand information to me..... |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
The group of individuals and organizations that believe this card is not authentic reads like a hobby dream team: Mr. Mastro, Mr. Fogel, Mr. Lifson (I think), SGC, PSA, and undisclosed others. At some point common sense dictates accepting this collective wisdom and moving on -- not to mention the clear contractual language compelling acceptance of the buyer's return. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: E, Daniel
"One could argue that it was only the scathing posts which pushed Steve in to a position where the buyer was able to receive a refund ". |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Well this card if it were found to be legitimate wouldn't just be a Cinderella Ruth card which by itself is probably easily an 18K card, but it would be the first Goudey baseball card known also. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: E, Daniel
I knew there was a reason my wife calls me idiot .......though still don't like it THAT much for 18K. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
Correct....the first Goudey baseball card, predating all others by 3 yrs, with Ruth on it.....hello..... |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Heh. We're only talking hypotheticals anyways since I think we can safely say with 100% assurety that this card is a fake. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: T206Collector
...of two old Dilbert comic strips I have on my wall: |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: barrysloate
Paul- I have the same exact Dilbert comic strip- the first one with the ball signed by Moses- on my bulletin board too! It must be at least five years old. Pretty funny! |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: davidcycleback
I can understand the pain of a consignee having to pay $18,000 for for something he never owned and only made a small sales percentage on. This is why I don't take consignments when I sell. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: JK
I know this could end up being a really callous thing to say, but given SGC's review and rejection of this card, it makes you wonder if the story behind CSA reauctioning the card (a child's death) was even true. I'd hate to think someone would lie about something like that (and I dont mean to imply that Steve did this - in this scenerio, its actually more likely that the original buyer found out it was fake and made up a story so he could return it). Of course, it all depends on the timing. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Mr. Cycleback, I agree... 18k is a lot of pain. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: davidcycleback
I consign material and have always felt that if something I consigned turned out to be a fake, I would have to return the money I earned. I wouldn't expect the consignee to be responsible for the entire sales price when he made just a small percentage from it. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
For the consignor to not know SGC opined the card was a fake, (i) he decided to resell one year later for reasons having nothing to do with the card's authenticity, (ii) consigned the card back to Clean Sweep, (iii) Clean Sweep or someone on its behalf sent the card to SGC, (iv) Clean Sweep, upon being told the card was no good, decided it did not want to disclose that info to the consignor and agreed to still sell it, despite by doing so it was blatantly violating not only its own expressed representations of selling only authentic material but also the express provisions of its guaranty (under which an opinion by a reputable grading service is enough for a card to be deemed no good). Hardly puts Clean Sweep in a very favorable light. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Joe D.
If either one of your possibilities is true (consignor or auction house knowing ahead of time)... take a look at the sales pitch given as to why the card was being auction off. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: barrysloate
Nothing good will come out of this sordid affair save the consignor getting his money back and everyone moving on. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
The claim that the return guaranty was not in place at the time of the auction was proven incorrect by publicly available facts -- i.e. the web archive. However, it seems to me unless the consignor reveals himself and tells his story or SGC identifies the person who submitted the Ruth (which I would not expect them to do as such relationships are confidential), we can only speculate about the sequence of events here. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: leon
I have repeatedly told Steve, that if it was me, I would refund the money...get the card back...then do whatever I need to with the card. That is what should have happened the day Mark contacted Steve the first time, imo. The problem for me is, now when I see Steve's guarantee of a refund for unauthentic items, it holds no weight. That's not so good for business. I was looking at some of his auctions today and saw the guarantee...but didn't believe it.....regards |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Dan Koteles
maybe it was the consignor .Unless anyone thought this situation would end up on the board ,(which most anything major does)it maybe hard to believe that Steve would pull the wool over the eyes of the many here. Maybe he did think he had something special.I didnt pay much into it cause Iam not a big fan of black & white or an arch of stars or any stars in a card for that matter. Whatever the case ,money back guarantee . |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
I don't mind, usually, if someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. It is actually good for me, helps me to pay attention. I do take exception to those rare folks who try to pull the whole sheep over my eyes. |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Anonymous
Oldest Retail trick in the Book...Fade the heat as long as possible and hope the problem goes away. Problem is, 18K fake card ain't going away. |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: dennis
prior to 1933 goudey gums most popular gum was called OH BOY GUM. if a 1930 product it would be a babe ruth oh boy gum calendar. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Joann
This is emerging as increasingly unfortunate all the way around - especially if SGC had looked at it some time ago. |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Dennis makes a good point that a little gum chewing penny packing kid really would not have been after a calendar. |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Jim Clarke
I think that no matter what the final outcome is.. The Card is now TAINTED. So much bad press on it, will not help it's value for future sales. Even if the card is good,and it came to auction again, I do not think it would fetch 2000.00 IMO. I've been wrong before.. But just voicing my opinion. This is all the way around a lose, lose deal for everyone. It all started with CSA on it right.. That should be the first sign..... JC |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Bob
JC- I don't think it would fetch $100. |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Lyman
My friends JC and tBob, I have to respectfully disagree. If in the future the card is demonstrated and generally accepted by the hobby as authentic, it would have enormous historical importance and therefore be valued far higher than the price for which it sold in the CSA auction. |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: joe brennan
Just my 2 cents on this whole thing but I think it has been over looked completely. |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: dennis
didn't CSA just auction again? AND NOT REFUND |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: davidcycleback
Here's my problem with having laboratory paper/ink analysis of the card. By profession I deal with identifying, dating and authenticating art, including stuff like Rembrandt and Salvador Dali, and my technical guides on art have been required texts for university courses (I don't say this to boast, but to note that I'm not ignorant on the subject). I'm familiar with the scientific analysis, which if properly done gives effective information. |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Dan Lundrigan
Well put Mr Cycleback and to put it in laymans terms.When your toilet cloggs you call a plumber not an electrician! |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: dennis
we all (some?)remember the scammer who used vintage ink on vintage paper to sell hall of fame baseball autographs....used to go to library and tear out pages of vintage books to get the right paper era and then use old vintage ink,(his name escapes me) but this item (seeing as only 1 is around) could be that type of scam. and david is 100% correct and the "experts" (and they ARE)have all agreed it's fake...kinda like the 2 guys w/the phoney wagner...that's were this is headed! |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: barrysloate
David makes an excellent point, one which has concerned me too. |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Paul
I suppose if CSA keeps trying, eventually an "expert" will think it's real. It gets a little frustrating to hear about the paper testing, when I'm pretty darn sure a quick check with a microscope will be conclusive proof that it's not authentic. Please buy a digital microscope & post a picture here. Those Digital Blue scopes are inexpensive, & take very nice 60X images. |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: davidcycleback
I would say if three top experts were disagreeing with three top experts, a lab test would be warranted to find out who's right and who's wrong. If there are six experts and they've come to the same conclusion, there's no need for a lab test. |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
As has at this point been pointed out far too many times, from a legal perspective the testing is irrelevant in regard to the buyer's right to have his money refunded. The terms of Clean Sweep's guaranty were met when PSA rendered its letter opining the card is not authentic. So unless Clean Sweep wants to allege PSA was involved in a fraud or collusion of some sort (in which case I'm sure SGC will step in), CASE CLOSED!!! All Clean Sweep is doing by prolonging this travesty is shattering whatever credibility they have left. |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......
Posted By: barrysloate
That has already been shattered. The next step is damage control. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
1930 Goudey- Babe Ruth- questionable authenticity? | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 99 | 01-11-2021 06:17 PM |
The 1930 ruth goudey calendar makes another appearance!! | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 20 | 08-24-2008 11:58 PM |
Mark Haverkos Final Answer to 1930 Ruth Card Controversy | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 80 | 03-31-2007 10:26 AM |
1930 Goudey Calender | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 5 | 10-21-2006 06:25 AM |
(3) N172's I bought on Ebay - the conclusion | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 2 | 05-28-2003 01:18 AM |