All right guys, we all know baseball..Who's the best in your mind?

[CMIZ5290]

I grew up in Atlanta, and watched numerous Braves games with Aaron. My vote still goes to Mantle, what are your thoughts?

[clydepepper]

Kevin- I'm assuming you mean players we have actually seen play? I only saw Mantle and Mays in the twilight of their careers, so I'll have to go with either Aaron or Ken Griffey, Jr.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I wouldn't argue with Aaron. He was much more than simply a power hitter. He could do pretty much everything. However, since you have selected him, I will throw out Willie Mays. There wasn't much he couldn't do on a baseball diamond. (All this being said Teddy Ballgame is my all time favorite.)

[billyb]

Best hitter I have seen play was Ted Williams. He just seemed to hit everything hard. His defensive ability was not that good as most. But in a pick up game with all the stars at my disposal, from that era, he would be my first pick.

[nolemmings]

Best all around player I ever saw was Barry Bonds.

[the 'stache]

Roberto Clemente. He could do everything. If he'd played in New York or Los Angeles, he'd be in the same breath as Mays. He'd also have hit a lot more home runs. As Duke Snider said "Clemente had power. He just played in an airport." Because of where he played his home games, Clemente said he tailored his hitting to be more line drives.

The Pirates also called Clemente up way before he was ready. He only had 155 plate appearances in the minor leagues.

If you look at all the Major League players with at least 2,000 at bats between 1960 and 1972, Clemente outperformed every single hitter. He hit .330. The next best hitter hit only .317. That's a huge disparity.

And he's the best fielding outfielder I've ever seen. He could get to any ball, and you didn't try to run on him, unless you wanted to be thrown out!

[bnorth]

For players I saw play in person it would be Wade Boggs. The guy was a hitting machine. If you liked homeruns you needed to see him take batting practice it was amazing. I seriously think he could have easily won several of the all star homerun derby's if he was in them.

If the steroid guys are included maybe Ken Griffey Jr. I would say Barry Bonds hands down but I only went to a few National league games compared to several 100 American league games and never seen him play in person.

[packs]

Best hitters I ever saw were Ken Griffey Jr. and Manny Ramirez.

Most fun to watch was Jim Thome.

[Runscott]

My favorites to watch hit were Olerud, Baines, Carew, Brett, Gwynn, Berkman.

As far as afraid to watch them bat against my team: Scott Rolen, Tony Perez, Bench, Barry Bonds, Pujols.

[D.P.Johnson]

Best player of all-time: Babe Ruth
Best player I saw in person: Willie Mays

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by bnorth

For players I saw play in person it would be Wade Boggs. The guy was a hitting machine. If you liked homeruns you needed to see him take batting practice it was amazing. I seriously think he could have easily won several of the all star homerun derby's if he was in them.

If the steroid guys are included maybe Ken Griffey Jr. I would say Barry Bonds hands down but I only went to a few National league games compared to several 100 American league games and never seen him play in person.

Congrats, Ben. I'm pretty sure you are the first person I ever heard link Ken Griffey, Jr. to steroids.

While they played during the period, I have never heard that about Thomas or Thome either. Let's be careful who gets thrown under the bus.

Bill- I have to admit, recalling that I did witness the 1971 World Series, Clemente would have to be the best I ever saw, too.

[bosoxfan]

Best I ever saw was Pedro Martinez. Best 6 consecutive years ever.

[EvilKing00]

bests I have seen was bonds / best player ever ruth

[packs]

On the pitching spectrum I go with:

Best of my life: Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson.

Really tough to say who was better. Johnson gets the edge in my opinion. From 1997 to 2002 he average 20 wins, 340 K's, threw 19 shutouts and pitched 46 complete games.

[TUM301]

Best player I ever saw in person, Johnny Bench. Have a soft spot for catchers because it`s such a demanding position but he played it at least as well, if not better, as anyone I`ve seen. Added to that is he was one of the main offensive threats for one of the better teams for many years. in an all time fantasy team draft, I start with Bench.

[clydepepper]

For position players I've seen play, I'd go with Clemente, Griffey, Jr., and Bench.

For pitchers, Koufax (didn't see him much, but that was enough), Pedro, Seaver, and Maddux.

I would include Bonds and Clemens, but no one knows exactly when the juicing started...so I have to leave them off.

Best in his lifetime : Babe Ruth

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Roberto Clemente. He could do everything. If he'd played in New York or Los Angeles, he'd be in the same breath as Mays. He'd also have hit a lot more home runs. As Duke Snider said "Clemente had power. He just played in an airport." Because of where he played his home games, Clemente said he tailored his hitting to be more line drives.

The Pirates also called Clemente up way before he was ready. He only had 155 plate appearances in the minor leagues.

If you look at all the Major League players with at least 2,000 at bats between 1960 and 1972, Clemente outperformed every single hitter. He hit .330. The next best hitter hit only .317. That's a huge disparity.

And he's the best fielding outfielder I've ever seen. He could get to any ball, and you didn't try to run on him, unless you wanted to be thrown out!

Easily Clemente for position players. I had to go to at least one Dodgers game every year to watch him play. The only thing that I can add is how he took his game to another level in the World Series. Mays would be second. For pitchers, Sandy Koufax.

[cardsfan73]

Best hitter I have seen play is Albert Pujols.

Best over all player Ken Griffey JR.

[JoeDfan]

In my humble opinion:

Best position player I ever saw? Ken Griffey, Jr.
Best pitcher I ever saw? Pedro Martinez
Best hitter I ever saw? Ichiro
Best hustle I ever saw? Pete Rose

Best position player of all time? Willie Mays
Best pitcher of all time? Satchel Paige
Best hitter of all time? Ted Williams
Best everything of all time? Babe Ruth

That was tough, and I am sure I didn't think of some other great ones.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JoeDfan

In my humble opinion:

Best position player I ever saw? Ken Griffey, Jr.
Best pitcher I ever saw? Pedro Martinez
Best hitter I ever saw? Ichiro
Best hustle I ever saw? Pete Rose

Best position player of all time? Willie Mays
Best pitcher of all time? Satchel Paige
Best hitter of all time? Ted Williams
Best everything of all time? Babe Ruth

That was tough, and I am sure I didn't think of some other great ones.

Sean I don't know if we can be friends anymore. Pedro over Clemens and Ichiro over Boggs are you on medication?

[the 'stache]

Ok, if we're going by best we ever saw play? I'd say Robin Yount. And I've seen a lot of players. I've been to many games, at Milwaukee County Stadium, at Arlington Stadium and the Ballpark In Arlington, at Bank One Ballpark, too. And I've seen many more live on MLB.tv. But Yount before he hurt his shoulder was the best player I've ever seen. He did everything so well, and sometimes it was just stupid how easy he made the game look. When I read about, or hear people talk about Joe DiMaggio, and how effortless everything he did looked, that's exactly how I felt watching Yount. Later, I felt the same about Ken Griffey Jr.

Yeah, Yount and Clemente are my favorite players ever, so I wouldn't have any problem if somebody said "you are letting your personal bias enter into the equation". Well, that may be so, but I'd counter by saying that a big part of the reason why they are my favorites is how incredible they were. I also love that they were great people who played their entire careers for one team. Clemente had no say over that, but I have a feeling he'd have stayed in Pittsburgh, anyway, even if he could have moved. He had a lot of close bonds with players on that team one he was into the 60s.

But Yount...people that never saw him play in person, in his prime, cannot possibly get how unreal he was. The guy could hit for power to any field. You couldn't intimidate him. I saw him get brushed back. And like Frank Robinson, he would just move in close.

"Go ahead, hit me. I'll just steal second, and score on a bloop single."

The guy had a natural instinct for the game that I've only seen from a few other players. The closest two players I ever saw to Yount in person, I'd have to say George Brett and Ivan Rodriguez. Griffey I never saw in person, but I've watched the Kid on television several times.

But Yount could go to the hole, and get anything hit to his right. And every time, he'd plant that right leg, come up, and just rip a perfect strike to first base. Before his shoulder fell apart, his arm was strong and accurate. And at the plate, he was sensational.

Between 1980 and 1984, only Mike Schmidt had a higher WAR (37.7) than Robin Yount's 35.6. How Yount didn't win the Gold Glove in 1981 is a mystery to me. He had a 1.8 dWAR in 1982, and won it, but he didn't win it in 1981 when he had a 2.8 dWAR. Obviously, WAR hadn't entered into baseball's lexicon yet, but the play that inspired the metric was there for all to see. And to get a 2.8 dWAR in only 96 games (remember, 1981 was the strike shortened season) is simply incredible. The Gold Glove winner, Alan Trammell, got a 2.3. Good, but Yount clearly outperformed him. Yount also outperformed him in 1980. Trammell won the Gold Glove with a 1.2 dWAR, and Yount had a 1.5 dWAR. Yount's 1.8 dWAR in 1982 was great, but Trammell had a 2.1.

But while Yount was special defensively, he was otherworldly at the plate. Yount's 179 doubles tied for the most in the Majors between 1980-84 with Al Oliver. His 44 triple trailed only Willie Wilson (54) and Larry Herndon (46). Only Rickey Henderson (537) scored more runs than Robin Yount's 507. Three players would have more hits than Yount in the first half of the decade, Cecil Cooper (926), Willie Wilson (879), and Al Oliver (857) topped Yount's 856 hits. By the end of the decade, Yount would have more hits than anybody else in the 80s. Yount hit .303 for the five year period, and his OPS of .854 was 13th best of all Major League position players, unheard of for a shortstop. Yount hit 95 home runs, and drove in 410 runs. He was an exceptional offensive force. Yet the things that don't show up in the box score, the way Yount battled every time he came to the plate, waiting for his pitch. The way he ran out every hit, or out, like he was the last batter of the World Series. The way Yount did everything perfectly. If you wanted to shoot a video of a player to show kids how the game should be played, Robin Yount was your man.

He only played in one World Series, in 1982, but like Clemente, he shined his brightest on the biggest stage. Yount hit .414 against the Cardinals, with a 1.072 OPS. To this day, Robin Yount is the only man in World Series history to have two four hit games in their career. Yount did it in game one, and game five.

He was a fearless leader. He was always the first guy to welcome a teammate entering the dugout after a big play. He could always be counted on in the biggest of moments. When the Brewers had a one game playoff to win the American League East in 1982, Yount had the biggest game of his MVP season. He went 3 for 4 at the plate with a triple and two home runs. It was his seventh two home run game of the year...Ernie Banks never had that many multi home run games in one season. With two outs in the bottom of the ninth, Yount, now a center fielder, made a diving catch, at a full sprint, to save Juan Nieves' no hitter, the only one in Brewers history.

Yount was a rock.

The thing that puts Robin above everybody else, in my mind, is that I never got the feeling that Robin was taking a play off. He battled every at bat. It always seemed he knew where he was going when the ball came to him. He always threw to the cutoff man as an outfielder, or he put the ball exactly where it needed to be for the second baseman to turn the double play. He and Gantner were so good together.

He was a joy to watch.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

For position players I've seen play, I'd go with Clemente, Griffey, Jr., and Bench.

For pitchers, Koufax (didn't see him much, but that was enough), Pedro, Seaver, and Maddux.

I would include Bonds and Clemens, but no one knows exactly when the juicing started...so I have to leave them off.

Best in his lifetime : Babe Ruth

The sad thing about Bonds is that he never had to juice. He wouldn't have broken Hank Aaron's home run record, or McGwire's, but he'd have been a first ballot Hall of Famer, anyway. He ruined his legacy.

By the end of his age 30 season, which is before Bonds would have started taking PED more than likely, he had 999 runs, 1,436 hits, 306 doubles, 48 triples, 292 home runs, 864 RBI, 340 stolen bases and a .938 OPS. He'd won 3 MVPs, 5 Gold Gloves, and 5 Silver Slugger Awards. I mean, to be at 300 HR and 300 SB, at age 31...all he had to do was stay healthy, and he was clearly on his way.

The next three years, he hit .300 with 119 HR, 352 RBI, and 105 SB. He had a 1.051 OPS in those three years. He won 3 more Gold Gloves and 2 more Silver Sluggers. At that point, I don't know if he's using, but he's a Hall of Famer right then.

At the end of the 1998 season, 33 years old, his career numbers:

.290 AVG, 1,364 R, 1,917 H, 403 doubles, 411 HR, 1,216 RBI, 445 SB, .966 OPS. 3 MVP. 8 Gold Gloves. 7 Silver Sluggers.

1999 was the year, I think, that moved him to use. He still hit 34 home runs, but he only hit .262, and only played in 102 games. The next two years, of course, he hit 49 then 73 home runs. The rest was history.

It's too bad.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The sad thing about Bonds is that he never had to juice. He wouldn't have broken Hank Aaron's home run record, or McGwire's, but he'd have been a first ballot Hall of Famer, anyway. He ruined his legacy.

By the end of his age 30 season, which is before Bonds would have started taking PED more than likely, he had 999 runs, 1,436 hits, 306 doubles, 48 triples, 292 home runs, 864 RBI, 340 stolen bases and a .938 OPS. He'd won 3 MVPs, 5 Gold Gloves, and 5 Silver Slugger Awards. I mean, to be at 300 HR and 300 SB, at age 31...all he had to do was stay healthy, and he was clearly on his way.

The next three years, he hit .300 with 119 HR, 352 RBI, and 105 SB. He had a 1.051 OPS in those three years. He won 3 more Gold Gloves and 2 more Silver Sluggers. At that point, I don't know if he's using, but he's a Hall of Famer right then.

At the end of the 1998 season, 33 years old, his career numbers:

.290 AVG, 1,364 R, 1,917 H, 403 doubles, 411 HR, 1,216 RBI, 445 SB, .966 OPS. 3 MVP. 8 Gold Gloves. 7 Silver Sluggers.

1999 was the year, I think, that moved him to use. He still hit 34 home runs, but he only hit .262, and only played in 102 games. The next two years, of course, he hit 49 then 73 home runs. The rest was history.

It's too bad.

Bonds most likely started juicing in 1993. Most of his legacy is buit on cheating, in my opinion. The guy who played for the Pirates was nothing like the guy who played for the Giants, a team with known PED users. The idea that PEDS started in 1998 with McGwire and Sosa breaking Maris' record is naive. I believe it was out of control by 1991 when Vincent want to crack down on steroids.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bonds most likely started juicing in 1993. Most of his legacy is buit on cheating, in my opinion. The guy who played for the Pirates was nothing like the guy who played for the Giants, a team with known PED users. The idea that PEDS started in 1998 with McGwire and Sosa breaking Maris' record is naive. I believe it was out of control by 1991 when Vincent want to crack down on steroids.

I think it started even earlier...1986...when Canseco first appeared.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bonds most likely started juicing in 1993. Most of his legacy is buit on cheating, in my opinion. The guy who played for the Pirates was nothing like the guy who played for the Giants, a team with known PED users. The idea that PEDS started in 1998 with McGwire and Sosa breaking Maris' record is naive. I believe it was out of control by 1991 when Vincent want to crack down on steroids.

I am not a fan of Barry Bonds. But I hate it when statements are presented as factual, when they are anything but.

While a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates, Bonds hit 176 home runs, and stole 251 bases. His last three years in Pittsburgh, Bonds was the National League MVP twice, and the MVP runner up once.



Here are two sets of numbers: first, his career numbers as a member of the Pirates, up to and including 1992, the year before you hypothesize that Bonds started using PEDs. The second set of numbers are the totals for Bonds last three years as a Pirate. Look at them. Bonds was a .301 hitter. His per 162 game averages those last three years: 113 runs scored, 165 hits, 36 doubles, 5 triples, 34 home runs, 122 RBI, 49 stolen bases, 120 walks. His slash line was .424/.566/.990.

He won three Gold Gloves those last three seasons. He won three Silver Slugger Awards, too.

My point? Barry Bonds was already a superstar before he ever put on a San Francisco Giants uniform. Had he never used a PED, Bonds, short of suffering a career-ending injury, was on his way to the Hall of Fame. He was the best player in the National League when the Giants got him. He played 140 games the season before, led the NL with 109 runs scored. Led the NL with 127 walks. Led the NL with a .456 OBP. Led the NL with a .624 SLG. Led the NL with a 1.080 OPS. Led the NL with a ridiculous 204 OPS +.

Let me repeat that. His last season in Pittsburgh, his OPS + was 204. That's higher than any single season in Ken Griffey Jr's career. Hall of Famer Frank Thomas only had one season with a higher OPS + (212 in 1994). Hall of Famer Willie McCovey only had one season higher (209 in 1969). That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Willie Mays ever had in a single season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Hank Aaron ever had in one season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio ever had in any one season.

To say that the Barry Bonds who played for the Pirates is nothing like the Barry Bonds that played for the Giants is a completely inaccurate statement.

He was 28 years old his first season in San Francisco. I believe that regardless of PED use or not, Bonds was on his way to becoming a 40-40 player. If you look at his numbers, he was decreasing his strikeouts, and walking more...substantially more, his last three years as a Pirate. His annual walk totals raised from 93 to 107 to 127. His strikeout totals dropped from 83 to 73 and 69 his last year (though he did come to bat 37 fewer times in his last year). His 34 home runs in 1992 was a career high, and he still stole 39 bases. He'd go on to win 5 more Gold Gloves in San Francisco.

Even if Bonds hadn't used PEDs, and his home run totals remained in the mid 30s per season, he was still going to be a member of the 500 home run club. His RBI totals would have ended up about where they are. Even when he hit 73 home runs in 2001, he only drove in 137 runs. He's still driving in 110 + runs a year hitting 30-35 home runs.

Bonds didn't need to use PEDs to become a great player, nor did he need PEDs to become a Hall of Fame player. Perhaps he used them to prolong his career. Maybe he had physical issues that we do not know about. Whatever the case, and whatever his motivation may have been, Barry Bonds would still have been considered one of the greatest players to ever play the game without PEDs, and rightfully so.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I am not a fan of Barry Bonds. But I hate it when statements are presented as factual, when they are anything but.

While a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates, Bonds hit 176 home runs, and stole 251 bases. His last three years in Pittsburgh, Bonds was the National League MVP twice, and the MVP runner up once.



Here are two sets of numbers: first, his career numbers as a member of the Pirates, up to and including 1992, the year before you hypothesize that Bonds started using PEDs. The second set of numbers are the totals for Bonds last three years as a Pirate. Look at them. Bonds was a .301 hitter. His per 162 game averages those last three years: 113 runs scored, 165 hits, 36 doubles, 5 triples, 34 home runs, 122 RBI, 49 stolen bases, 120 walks. His slash line was .424/.566/.990.

He won three Gold Gloves those last three seasons. He won three Silver Slugger Awards, too.

My point? Barry Bonds was already a superstar before he ever put on a San Francisco Giants uniform. Had he never used a PED, Bonds, short of suffering a career-ending injury, was on his way to the Hall of Fame. He was the best player in the National League when the Giants got him. He played 140 games the season before, led the NL with 109 runs scored. Led the NL with 127 walks. Led the NL with a .456 OBP. Led the NL with a .624 SLG. Led the NL with a 1.080 OPS. Led the NL with a ridiculous 204 OPS +.

Let me repeat that. His last season in Pittsburgh, his OPS + was 204. That's higher than any single season in Ken Griffey Jr's career. Hall of Famer Frank Thomas only had one season with a higher OPS + (212 in 1994). Hall of Famer Willie McCovey only had one season higher (209 in 1969). That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Willie Mays ever had in a single season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Hank Aaron ever had in one season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio ever had in any one season.

To say that the Barry Bonds who played for the Pirates is nothing like the Barry Bonds that played for the Giants is a completely inaccurate statement.

He was 28 years old his first season in San Francisco. I believe that regardless of PED use or not, Bonds was on his way to becoming a 40-40 player. If you look at his numbers, he was decreasing his strikeouts, and walking more...substantially more, his last three years as a Pirate. His annual walk totals raised from 93 to 107 to 127. His strikeout totals dropped from 83 to 73 and 69 his last year (though he did come to bat 37 fewer times in his last year). His 34 home runs in 1992 was a career high, and he still stole 39 bases. He'd go on to win 5 more Gold Gloves in San Francisco.

Even if Bonds hadn't used PEDs, and his home run totals remained in the mid 30s per season, he was still going to be a member of the 500 home run club. His RBI totals would have ended up about where they are. Even when he hit 73 home runs in 2001, he only drove in 137 runs. He's still driving in 110 + runs a year hitting 30-35 home runs.

Bonds didn't need to use PEDs to become a great player, nor did he need PEDs to become a Hall of Fame player. Perhaps he used them to prolong his career. Maybe he had physical issues that we do not know about. Whatever the case, and whatever his motivation may have been, Barry Bonds would still have been considered one of the greatest players to ever play the game without PEDs, and rightfully so.

Bonds hit 46 home runs his first season in SF. He was on pace to hit 53+ HRs when the strike hit in 94. His teammate Matt Williams was on pace to hit 62+. Bonds put up those numbers going from a hitters park in Pitt to a pitchers park in SF. Something fishy was going on in SF.

You can says you believe that Bonds was on his way to the HOF and didn't need steroids, but we'll never know. Bonds obviously felt he needed them. Being on pace for Hof doesn't make it a sure thing.Roger Maris was coming off back to back MVPs, didn't make it.Dick Allen was coming off 4 160 Ops+ seasons and 5 of his first six years, didn’t make it.Dale Murphy had just won back to back MVPs, didn't make it. HOF is for a great career, not a few good years. Bonds became a HOFER while on steroids, in my opinion. If he wanted to be HOF, he should have done it clean.

[frankh8147]

I'm a little younger but for pitcher, I go Greg Maddux, batter is unfortunatley Barry Bonds.

[7nohitter]

Nolan Ryan

[rjackson44]

Reggie jackson

[HRBAKER]

Barry was a great player in Pittsburgh, he certainly seemed headed for the HOF. No one who have guessed that he would hit twice as many HRs @ 37 than he did @ 28 in a pitcher's park. He cheated plain and simple so we will never know how great he "would have" been. That's his fault not ours.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Robin Yount hit .285, with a .772 OPS, and won one gold glove. He was named to only three all star teams. Let's keep him in perspective.

I agree with you on Bonds though -- he was fabulous pre-juicing, best all-around player in baseball hands down.

[GoldenAge50s]

Mantle was, and still is, the ONLY player I ever saw play who could make the hairs on your neck stand up & tingle when he came to the plate.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Mantle was, and still is, the ONLY player I ever saw play who could make the hairs on your neck stand up & tingle when he came to the plate.

+1 big time!!!