PSA completely unethical

[bobbyw8469]

If I do another group sub with them, I have no one to blame but myself. Of course, if they make this right with me, I would be tempted. Leon nailed it. You hate to use anyone else, because PSA cards are getting a premium. If this isn't the proverbial "catch 22", I don't know what is......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

If I do another group sub with them, I have no one to blame but myself. Of course, if they make this right with me, I would be tempted. Leon nailed it. You hate to use anyone else, because PSA cards are getting a premium. If this isn't the proverbial "catch 22", I don't know what is......

Nobody goes there any more, it's too crowded.

[Yoda]

PSA has had my submission of about 50 really nice vintage post-war Hof'ers since May of 2020. The cards now appear to be in grading, but who knows? This will be my last submission to PSA.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Yoda

PSA has had my submission of about 50 really nice vintage post-war Hof'ers since May of 2020. The cards now appear to be in grading, but who knows? This will be my last submission to PSA.

Here is praying that the package doesn't wind up missing.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

If I do another group sub with them, I have no one to blame but myself. Of course, if they make this right with me, I would be tempted. Leon nailed it. You hate to use anyone else, because PSA cards are getting a premium. If this isn't the proverbial "catch 22", I don't know what is......

Your sanity is worth something too, not just the cards.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by conor912

Your sanity is worth something too, not just the cards.

Thank you Conor. I am at my wits end thinking about this.

[sreader3]

I still chuckle about the title of this thread.

Most people use PSA because their expectancy value is higher than their grading fees, discounted for inflation and risks of loss. Taking a highly simplified example, if you have a raw card worth $1000 and you think there is a 50% chance it will be worth $2000 after grading and a 50% chance it will be worth $1000 after grading, your expectancy value is $1500 less grading fees, inflation (while you wait) and risks of loss. Let's say inflation and risks of loss total $200, reducing your expectancy value to $1300. You will still pay up to $300 in grading fees (maybe somewhat less if you are risk averse, as most of us are) because your expectancy value will still be greater than the value of your ungraded card.

I am sure there are collectors who have legitimate moral concerns about PSA but this is how many people, myself included (and probably PSA) view the situation.

In sum, it's fine to complain about how PSA has "screwed" collectors, but that sentiment needs to be balanced against the value that PSA has created for collectors.

And, no, I am not on PSA's "payroll." I have met Joe Orlando and David Hall but neither one ever offered me a dime. I do, however, have cards that are worth a lot more because they are in PSA holders.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I still chuckle about the title of this thread.

Most people use PSA because their expectancy value is higher than their grading fees, discounted for inflation and risks of loss. Taking a highly simplified example, if you have a raw card worth $1000 and you think there is a 50% chance it will be worth $2000 after grading and a 50% chance it will be worth $1000 after grading, your expectancy value is $1500 less grading fees, inflation (while you wait) and risks of loss. Let's say inflation and risks of loss total $200, reducing your expectancy value to $1300. You will still pay up to $300 in grading fees (maybe somewhat less if you are risk averse, as most of us are) because your expectancy value will still be greater than the value of your ungraded card.

I am sure there are collectors who have legitimate moral concerns about PSA but this is how many people, myself included (and probably PSA) view the situation.

In sum, it's fine to complain about how PSA has "screwed" collectors, but that sentiment needs to be balanced against the value that PSA has created for collectors.

And, no, I am not on PSA's "payroll." I have met Joe Orlando and David Hall but neither one ever offered me a dime. I do, however, have cards that are worth a lot more because they are in PSA holders.

And your point is what? Mr. Chuckle. As I said I collect track and field cards (hardly an investment decision) I just wanted some nice cards encapsulated. No cards here that I am boasting are worth 50K. So yes they are screwing the average person who does not make a living buying and selling (investing) in cardboard.

[sreader3]

My name is not "Mr. Chuckle." Please do not engage in ad hominem. It just makes you look bad. If you are not happy with PSA , I suggest that you use other grading services.

Edited to add: I think it's cool that you collect track and field cards. I love 20th century American ephemera from T206 to Warhol paintings. Good luck with your collecting pursuits.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

My name is not "Mr. Chuckle." Please do not engage in ad hominem. It just makes you look bad. If you are not happy with PSA , I suggest that you use other grading services.

regardless of how i look. PSA is a down the line company and if the economy fell apart tomorrow they would be done and all the cards on this board would not be worth the heat they would generate if lit on fire. PSA should be grateful for the business. so posit whatever you want. PSA should do their job. end of story

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by jkm412

regardless of how i look. PSA is a down the line company and if the economy fell apart tomorrow they would be done and all the cards on this board would not be worth the heat they would generate if lit on fire. PSA should be grateful for the business. so posit whatever you want. PSA should do their job. end of story

I agree that PSA should "do their job." And I think they do. They make very serious mistakes, like grading the T206 Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l) Polar Bear which I pointed out to David Hall personally (although after they had already corrected the error and made amends). But they try to get it right--even though they blow it sometimes. If the economy falls apart tomorrow, I think all of the cards on this board will still be worth far more than the heat they would generate if lit on fire. So I will keep mine. Light yours on fire if you want.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I agree that PSA should "do their job." And I think they do. They make very serious mistakes, like grading the T206 Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l) Polar Bear which I pointed out to David Hall personally (although after they had already corrected the error and made amends). But they try to get it right--even though they blow it sometimes. If the economy falls apart tomorrow, I think all of the cards on this board will still be worth far more than the heat they would generate if lit on fire. So I will keep mine. Light yours on fire if you want.

they do not do their job. unless their job is fantasy. they have left the average collector behind. they got caught up or created the REA auction frenzy. this is another form of crypto currency. inflated values with no true underlying value. in fact they have left vintage cards behind. can a Tom Brady autographed card really be worth $1 million dollars. Come on now. there are people who do real work in this world. this will end in tears.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by jkm412

regardless of how i look. PSA is a down the line company and if the economy fell apart tomorrow they would be done and all the cards on this board would not be worth the heat they would generate if lit on fire. PSA should be grateful for the business. so posit whatever you want. PSA should do their job. end of story

I think this was disproven in March 2020 when the economy was toast and cards shot up in value

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

I think this was disproven in March 2020 when the economy was toast and cards shot up in value

And now cards have shot back down in value.

[Kutcher55]

They are still a small company $35m in a quarter is really peanuts for most businesses as is $10m operating income and the profit margin is nothing wild either. The premium the cards get over SGC which grades every bit as tough but has a much less checkered background is mind boggling to me.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

They are still a small company $35m in a quarter is really peanuts for most businesses as is $10m operating income and the profit margin is nothing wild either. The premium the cards get over SGC which grades every bit as tough but has a much less checkered background is mind boggling to me.

i just don't understand how anyone can defend them. they created the graded market messed up the graded market and now they want people to be patient with them. and as an added layer of BS they went private so as not to answer to anyone. you can say it just business but i have noticed its mostly you all with the high end cards who don't want to mess up a good thing. and hell i don't blame you

[sreader3]

Again, I suggest that you do not use PSA if you think they do not provide a valuable service. I have personally stopped using them while this all sorts out. But I think the notion that they should not capitalize on the price premium that some collectors are willing to pay at the National for premium service is absurd.

You have a personal choice. It’s hot that hard. Do nothing.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Again, I suggest that you do not use PSA if you think they do not provide a valuable service. I have personally stopped using them while this all sorts out. But I think the notion that they should not capitalize on the price premium that some collectors are willing to pay at the National for premium service is absurd.

You have a personal choice. It’s hot that hard. Do nothing.

you seem angry. is the value of your cards being jeopardized.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Again, I suggest that you do not use PSA if you think they do not provide a valuable service. I have personally stopped using them while this all sorts out. But I think the notion that they should not capitalize on the price premium that some collectors are willing to pay at the National for premium service is absurd.

You have a personal choice. It’s hot that hard. Do nothing.

it's not that hard do nothing. do you and you alone know whats best?

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Again, I suggest that you do not use PSA if you think they do not provide a valuable service. I have personally stopped using them while this all sorts out. But I think the notion that they should not capitalize on the price premium that some collectors are willing to pay at the National for premium service is absurd.

You have a personal choice. It’s hot that hard. Do nothing.

Lets parse some of your BS statements

"I am sure there are collectors who have legitimate moral concerns about PSA but this is how many people, myself included (and probably PSA) view the situation."

these aren't moral concerns. these are basic service concerns. bottom line you pay for a service they should attempt to deliver. when you say you are making a best effort and then you throw out a sidebar "to make a little extra cash" you are a jagoff in pittsburgh parlance. plain and simple. and if you defend the practice you are either benefitting from the nonsense or you are a nincompoop.

[Casey2296]

Don't let your anger towards the current environment cloud your love of collecting cards. Make your collection exactly what you want and nothing else.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Don't let your anger towards the current environment cloud your love of collecting cards. Make your collection exactly what you want and nothing else.

Honestly no anger. There are individuals who make a living at this at all costs. and they take advantage. and whatever.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by jkm412

Honestly no anger. There are individuals who make a living at this at all costs. and they take advantage. and whatever.

And those people should not matter when it comes to building your personal collection.