The Aaron Judge Effect

[JimmyC]

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

[BobC]

Originally Posted by JimmyC

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

Well said!

[packs]

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

[raulus]

Reminds me a lot about when Drugged Earwig asserted that Hammerin Hank was the real home run king.

As a giants fan, this article always tickled my funny bone:

https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/pl...-king-ray-king

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

No one is arguing with you, but my responses were in regard to the posts about surprise being felt that there wasn't a lot more excitement and talk going on everywhere among fans and the public in general, in regard to Judge's achievement and going for such a record. There is not, and this is not, a debate about whether Bonds holds a "legitimate" record or not, it is an attempt to answer a question/comment posed about why more people may not be as excited about Judge's achievement than some others, and overall, displaying much less excitement and interest than they expected from the public in general.

The simple facts are that:

1. Not everyone is a serious fan and follows baseball as closely as others, so they truly don't care much, if at all, about what Judge is doing.

2. MLB still lists Bonds' 73 homers as the all-time single season record, so many people view that as the recognized record.

3. That someone would post saying they are surprised about the overall lack of excitement and talk surrounding Judge, shows that they have obviously underestimated the number of people that do fall into the categories I pointed out my first two fact points.

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

[RCMcKenzie]

Even if you erase from your memory, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, and Gonzo and Ortiz, etal.... Giancarlo Stanton hit 59 in 2017 for the Marlins. I don't remember it being a big deal at all.

I think a Triple Crown would be cool, but it's not a daily must see like a hitting streak. Cabrera did it a while back and I bet Tigers fans loved it. I thought it was neat.

[packs]

I commented after another poster referred to Maris being the record holder. I don't have any thoughts on your comments about waning popularity.

[RCMcKenzie]

If I were to accept the proposal that the "true" record for 162 games is Roger Maris' 61, and Judge hits 62 this year, then I would expect everyone to accept Yordan Alvarez as the all-time Home Run King when he hits 63 next year. We all know Alvarez would not be considered the King in that scenario, which is why I won't think Judge is the all-time record holder if he surpasses 61.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Even if you erase from your memory, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, and Gonzo and Ortiz, etal.... Giancarlo Stanton hit 59 in 2017 for the Marlins. I don't remember it being a big deal at all.

I think a Triple Crown would be cool, but it's not a daily must see like a hitting streak. Cabrera did it a while back and I bet Tigers fans loved it. I thought it was neat.

I wish Luis Gonzalez didn't get clumped in with those guys, but, I guess, if 57 homers weren't obvious enough, he had to go and have triplets. LOL


.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BobC

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

I'm not sure if I meet this standard, but I enjoy hearing myself talk, so here goes:

1) As much as it pains me to admit it, baseball is nowhere close to being as popular as back in the good old days. 50 years ago, there was baseball, and then a big Big BIG step down to #2. These days, you could reasonably argue that the NBA and the NFL are legit contenders, likely even surpassing MLB, particularly in the public consciousness. And that's before we even get to all of the other sports that are surging in popularity. Soccer. Tennis. Hockey? Pickleball??

2) There's a lot going on these days that is competing for attention. A short list:
a) Some war
b) Nuclear weapons, this is not a bluff.
c) An election in 6 weeks, on which the very fate of the universe rests. THE UNIVERSE!!!
d) Inflation
e) Interest rates
f) Stock market craziness
g) The pandemic is over
h) Something about the border
i) England has a new king

So you add it all up, and Judge's run is amazing for those of us paying attention. But for the rest of the world, it's on page 23, in small font, buried behind the latest thing that happened with the Kardashians. I'm not saying it's right. But that's just the way it is.

[JimmyC]

There is a lot of craziness in the world right now and a lack of consumer confidence…..baseball and major league sports are the last thing on a lot of people’s minds right now…..as I said above, I don’t watch the game like I used to, but I do think there is good buzz over what Judge is doing right now and he’s a good guy and I think fans in general really like him - not just Yankees fans…you guys closer to the current game may truly feel the buzz is down and we all come at it from different perspectives…

Major League sports in general - specifically the big three - NBA, NFL and MLB have lost a lot of fans over the past few years…..due to their embracing of social issues - not getting political, but it’s a fact….those three have bent over backwards to political and social issues that I find just outright illogical….not the issues themselves, but how the Leagues react to players, businesses, sponsors, media and politicians….We just want to watch the game! …..an example was moving the All Star game out of Atlanta which made no sense to me….if you move the game from Atlanta for a certain issue, why not just eliminate the Braves as well?

The NHL has been the net gainer of fans the past few years…..and I see that trend continuing…..

Good luck Aaron on getting 61 and beyond…..I’ll be following even if I can’t sit down in front of the tube every time you get to the plate….

[Snapolit1]

I truly don't believe professional sports have taken a hit from their stands on any issues. I think interest in professional sports has waned for the same reasons why golf course membership is dying, bowling alleys are becoming extinct, college football teams can't sell tickets like they used to, no one goes to movies like they used to, no one watches the grammys and academy awards like they used to, . . .on and on and on. Just read last week that Disney attendance is way down at one of the parks.

With the growth of life online there are just so many distractions and avenues to go down to amuse yourself. And people just aren't as social as they used to. When I was growing up, parents held parties every weekend where folks from the neighborhood would show up with meals and people would get drunk, have the occasional screaming match, etc. Today it seems are barely able to wave hello to their neighbors.

Different times and people have changed to.

Originally Posted by JimmyC

There is a lot of craziness in the world right now and a lack of consumer confidence…..baseball and major league sports are the last thing on a lot of people’s minds right now…..as I said above, I don’t watch the game like I used to, but I do think there is good buzz over what Judge is doing right now and he’s a good guy and I think fans in general really like him - not just Yankees fans…you guys closer to the current game may truly feel the buzz is down and we all come at it from different perspectives…

Major League sports in general - specifically the big three - NBA, NFL and MLB have lost a lot of fans over the past few years…..due to their embracing of social issues - not getting political, but it’s a fact….those three have bent over backwards to political and social issues that I find just outright illogical….not the issues themselves, but how the Leagues react to players, businesses, sponsors, media and politicians….an example was moving the All Star game out of Atlanta which made no sense to me….if you move the game from Atlanta for a certain issue, why not just eliminate the Braves as well?

The NHL has been the net gainer of fans the past few years…..and I see that trend continuing…..

Good luck Aaron on getting 61 and beyond…..I’ll be following even if I can’t sit down in front of the tube every time you get to the plate….

[BobC]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm not sure if I meet this standard, but I enjoy hearing myself talk, so here goes:

1) As much as it pains me to admit it, baseball is nowhere close to being as popular as back in the good old days. 50 years ago, there was baseball, and then a big Big BIG step down to #2. These days, you could reasonably argue that the NBA and the NFL are legit contenders, likely even surpassing MLB, particularly in the public consciousness. And that's before we even get to all of the other sports that are surging in popularity. Soccer. Tennis. Hockey? Pickleball??

2) There's a lot going on these days that is competing for attention. A short list:
a) Some war
b) Nuclear weapons, this is not a bluff.
c) An election in 6 weeks, on which the very fate of the universe rests. THE UNIVERSE!!!
d) Inflation
e) Interest rates
f) Stock market craziness
g) The pandemic is over
h) Something about the border
i) England has a new king

So you add it all up, and Judge's run is amazing for those of us paying attention. But for the rest of the world, it's on page 23, in small font, buried behind the latest thing that happened with the Kardashians. I'm not saying it's right. But that's just the way it is.

LOL

All good Nicolo!

I get accused of typing and saying too much all the time, so was trying to keep my comments and reasons as short as possible. Was actually asking that as more or less a rhetorical question of those who seemed surprised by the lack of interest in Judge's feat. All additional great responses and reasons though.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by BobC

No one is arguing with you, but my responses were in regard to the posts about surprise being felt that there wasn't a lot more excitement and talk going on everywhere among fans and the public in general, in regard to Judge's achievement and going for such a record. There is not, and this is not, a debate about whether Bonds holds a "legitimate" record or not, it is an attempt to answer a question/comment posed about why more people may not be as excited about Judge's achievement than some others, and overall, displaying much less excitement and interest than they expected from the public in general.

The simple facts are that:

1. Not everyone is a serious fan and follows baseball as closely as others, so they truly don't care much, if at all, about what Judge is doing.

2. MLB still lists Bonds' 73 homers as the all-time single season record, so many people view that as the recognized record.

3. That someone would post saying they are surprised about the overall lack of excitement and talk surrounding Judge, shows that they have obviously underestimated the number of people that do fall into the categories I pointed out my first two fact points.

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

When Maris hit his 61 hrs, he was battling Mantle for the title most of the season. The interest was there because there were two players in contention.

[yanks4]

Right on!!! Correct.....Period

Originally Posted by JimmyC

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

[FrankWakefield]

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Was it Roger Maris?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Was it Roger Maris?

What will be the most popular name for children of baseball fans in the next year?

Henry Judge

or

Aaron Aaron

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

What will be the most popular name for children of baseball fans in the next year?

Henry Judge

or

Aaron Aaron

My guess, if it's a baby born in California he/she will be named "Asterisk".

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

My guess, if it's a baby born in California he/she will be named "Asterisk".

Not as damning as A-steroid I suppose.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it.

Well, I think there is more interest in what Judge is doing than just in the Yankees universe, Lol.

But he seems to have gone into a little hitting funk. Pressure?

[FrankWakefield]

Yes Dave, Roger Maris.

1960, 61, 62, 63, and 64 for the Yankees, winning in 61 and 62.

1967 and 68 with the Cardinals, winning in 67.

That's a lot of World Series play. He was a pretty good ball player.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

Sure, but then you get into effects--- did the "leaded" coffee have the same benefits as steroids?

What the steroid guys did was next level---it made a great Bonds immortal but to me he is the home run king, and massive cheat.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Sure, but then you get into effects--- did the "leaded" coffee have the same benefits as steroids?

What the steroid guys did was next level---it made a great Bonds immortal but to me he is the home run king, and massive cheat.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

I don't know, do you? Having additional muscle strength is great, but even if you're stronger, all that strength won't do you a damn bit of good if you can't swing and get the bat on the ball. I've never seen or heard how PEDs like Bonds and others allegedly used improved hand-eye coordination, bat speed, eyesight, or other attributes or abilities that would help them to get the bat on the ball. It is possible for humans to work out like crazy to build muscle mass and strength without illegal steroids and PEDs, very hard, but still possible. Are there similar things humans can do though to increase that focus and "twitch" response time naturally, without the use of heavy doses of caffeine and possibly other chemicals or substances?

With a lot of the short fences today, and the increased velocity that modern pitchers overall seem to throw at, all a smaller guy really has to do is get the bat on the ball solidly to then use the increased energy in that pitch to send it over the fence. Newton's third law of motion/physics, I believe. Strength alone is not the sole, main factor to hitting home runs. You possibly looking at players taking 'roids/PEDs and claiming they took cheating to the next level isn't necessarily wrong, but it might be a little short-sighted in not also recognizing that the use of caffeine/amphetamines is technically using a type of PED as well, and in the end just as wrong.

Throughout the history of baseball, many players have done things on an individual basis to cheat and gain an advantage. To me though, what really constitutes taking cheating to the "next level" is when you have a team/organization working in a joint manner where many people are working together to cheat and take advantage of an opponent. To me that would be the ultimate unpardonable sin, and anyone found involved in such a collusive activity should be immediately banned from MLB for life. And we've had that happen, yet MLB didn't really do a damn thing to anyone involved, did they? And to me that is an even worse offense than what the conspiring cheaters did.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.

They all did what they had to do during their time period.

I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!

Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.

And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.

They all did what they had to do during their time period.

I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!

Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.

And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

I also thought I had read/heard somewhere that Ruth got caught using a corked/juiced bat once as well.

The fact is that MLB didn't have specific rules in place against the use of PEDs at the time. The home run competition between those two helped boost MLB in the aftermath of the strike that had taken place earlier in the 90's. MLB was eating it up, and taking every advantage they could to make money off what the PED users were doing.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.



They all did what they had to do during their time period.



I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!



Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.



And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

Yeah I thought it was all TREMENDOUS too until I learned it was not legit.

Seasons like Judge/Pujols are what MLB needs, not steroid cheats.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

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In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by JustinD

In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.

I don't agree its a myth. It is illegal to use steroids or hgh without a rx from a dr.

Not Greg Anderson, who served time because of it. Albeit a slap on the wrist.

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[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

I don't agree its a myth. It is illegal to use steroids or hgh without a rx from a dr.

Not Greg Anderson, who served time because of it. Albeit a slap on the wrist.

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I was stating during those dates.

However, it is as difficult to get now as getting a subscription for Viagra over the computer.

HGH and steroids are just hidden under the anti-aging label now. I see you are in FL, here is an example of an "anti-aging" center. These have "doctors", but much as the same as states with legalized pot to get a card.

https://floridaantiagingcenter.com/men/

And Greg Anderson got a whole 90 days because it was for conspiracy to distribute and money laundering, not possession.

You are deferring current laws to the past, so I just wanted to show the juxtaposition just like salad bowls of Greenies in 60's/70's locker rooms.

Each and every generation has pushed the envelope. The amphetamines' were legal, hell JFK was fully drugged up on speed everyday. I have never seen proof nor does it exist scientifically that steroids' increase hand eye coordination. And as you said any MLB player can make contact with the ball...well the averages have a lot of argument for that. Can they impact distance? Well I could see that for sure.

As to the greenies, Doc Ellis and many other players have stated that they slowed the game and made hitting much easier. To the point that any ADHD meds which are a similar issue are banned to kingdom come. I just really think no great period is gleaming with honesty. A player focused on his career will likely do anything on the earth to prolong or better it, it's competitiveness... and that has caused numerous problems for history.