NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:33 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 6,902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
No disrespect to any one company but there really is no reason to authenticate or give your opinion on a Joe Jackson autograph unless it appears on a legal document.
If they are not capable of determining autographs without witnessing the signature, and did not certify autographs because of it, PSA would also stop grading cards since that requires them to be "authentic" and "unaltered", two additional things they cannot accomplish. Then what would their millions of customers do?
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:37 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

I didn’t say anything about any other persons autograph. I was speaking specifically about the signature of an illiterate person and my reason was pretty specific.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:54 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
Travis
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
I think it would be interesting to see if PSA is going to use AI in the future to help authenticate autographs. If so, would this one pass at that time?
It's plausible, but I doubt it. They would need separate training data for each signature they want to authenticate, and would need a very large sample of both known authentic signatures and forged signatures for it to learn from. Many thousands of examples for each player. And if the background behind the autos is an image, as opposed to just a plain white background, then they would need even more. Then they would need to pay a highly skilled worker to build a separate model, fine tuning the parameters and hyper-parameters for each player. For a player like Joe Jackson with a mere handful of known examples, it simply wouldn't be possible to do with AI. For a player like Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Bob Feller or Michael Jordan though, it could be done. I don't know how useful/accurate the results would be though, as I've never built models for this specific application, but I suspect a skilled data scientist could build a model that would likely outperform any human expert for this specific problem. However, the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze. If you think auto authentication is expensive now, just wait until the cost increases 10-fold.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:57 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,466
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveS View Post
Packs, I agree with you totally, and that's why I've said that it doesn't seem appropriate for either side to say that they are 100% certain. However, I also agree with drcy that an ink analysis would be huge here. Not necessarily the age of the ink, as old ink is available. But if there's a way to show conclusively how long the ink has been on the paper (without damaging the signature), that would go a heck of a long way to show that Joe signed it. I doubt anybody in 1911 was thinking of forging his signature on a photo.
The dryness test I mentioned judges how long the ink has been on the paper. It's a standard test.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 10-11-2021, 02:12 PM
SteveS SteveS is offline
St.eve Sus.sman
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Currently Colorado, formerly Los Angeles
Posts: 287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drcy View Post
The dryness test I mentioned judges how long the ink has been on the paper. It's a standard test.
OK. That's the one in which you said that a "small bit" of the ink has to be removed. How much is a "small bit," and how would it affect the signature? And how specific can it nail down the range of time that the ink was on the paper? Because I'm thinking that if it can give a definite range within a few years give or take of 1911, it would go a very long way to authenticate the signature. Other than his wife, who had a distinctive way of signing his name, who else would be putting his autograph on a photo? Who else even knew what his signature looked like? Assuming that the test doesn't do any visible damage to the signature, it would definitely be a worthwhile venture.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 10-11-2021, 02:21 PM
chadeast's Avatar
chadeast chadeast is offline
Ch@d
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveS View Post
OK. That's the one in which you said that a "small bit" of the ink has to be removed. How much is a "small bit," and how would it affect the signature? And how specific can it nail down the range of time that the ink was on the paper? Because I'm thinking that if it can give a definite range within a few years give or take of 1911, it would go a very long way to authenticate the signature. Other than his wife, who had a distinctive way of signing his name, who else would be putting his autograph on a photo? Who else even knew what his signature looked like? Assuming that the test doesn't do any visible damage to the signature, it would definitely be a worthwhile venture.
https://sports.ha.com/itm/autographs...a/7130-80051.s

This link was posted earlier in the thread, but I am going to post it again. If you have any faith in Heritage and their analysis of the photograph when they sold it in 2015, the answer to that question may very well be Frank W. Smith.
__________________
successful deals with hcv123, rholmes, robw1959, Yankees1964, theuclakid, Brian Van Horn, h2oya311, thecapeleague, Gkoz316, chesbro41, edjs, wazoo, becollie, t206kid, vintageismygame, Neal, bradmar48, iconsportscards, wrapperguy, agrebene, T3fan, T3s, ccre, Leon, wolf441, cammb, tonyo, markf31,gonzo,scmavl & others

currently working on:
E101 (33/50)
T3 set (104/104), complete!
T205 set (108/221)
'33 Goudey
collecting W600s, Walter Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 10-11-2021, 02:27 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,466
Default

There may be new non-invasive ways to do it.

Determining age is a very significant test, because a forgery would be modern.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 10-11-2021, 02:51 PM
SteveS SteveS is offline
St.eve Sus.sman
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Currently Colorado, formerly Los Angeles
Posts: 287
Default

Here's something interesting, although I'm not sure if it means anything other than sloppy work by one of the auction houses. In the Heritage link that Chad posted, they describe it as a "labored pencil signature." But in the Christie's description, they call it "boldly signed by Jackson in black fountain pen."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot_20211011-144005~01.jpg (16.4 KB, 388 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot_20211011-144221~01.jpg (13.5 KB, 385 views)
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 10-11-2021, 02:55 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Again, mentioning this only for timeline. In this SABR article, it says that Jackson signed his first professional contract with an X. I'm guessing the article is referring to Greenville in 1908. This photo is from 1911. So we know definitively that Joe Jackson could not write his name in 1908 and here is a photo with a pretty nice Joe Jackson just 3 years later. In fact, to me this photograph has one of the most fluid and well executed Jacksons of any I've seen, which again must have been signed shortly after he learned to write at all.

I think it's again important to know whether or not Joe Jackson could write his name in 1911. The earliest confirmed signature (on some kind of voucher) listed on PSA's site is from 1916.

Last edited by packs; 10-11-2021 at 03:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 10-11-2021, 03:39 PM
rand1com rand1com is online now
R@ndy Hart.soe
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 1,096
Default

They give an opinion, no more, no less. It is not binding and they are not held responsible for mistakes. Read the form you sign when submitting your item and that will be clear. I personally don't like the signature and agree that if he could only place an "X" on his 1908 contract it is unlikely he could sign his name this well in 1911. Perhaps, the famous photographer left a note stating that he personally witnessed Jackson signing his photo. Who knows for sure but you can bet PSA/DNA knew this was an extremely valuable item whenever they authenticated it and you have to assume they had a good reason for opining that it is authentic.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 10-11-2021, 04:26 PM
Klrdds Klrdds is offline
K&v!/\/ R@g$d@/3
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: GA
Posts: 1,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand1com View Post
They give an opinion, no more, no less. Who knows for sure but you can bet PSA/DNA knew this was an extremely valuable item whenever they authenticated it and you have to assume they had a good reason for opining that it is authentic.
The good reason was not to make a big time / powerful AH mad at them and then the other motive is $$$$
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 10-11-2021, 05:12 PM
SteveS SteveS is offline
St.eve Sus.sman
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Currently Colorado, formerly Los Angeles
Posts: 287
Default

I believe he signed/Xed the 1908 Greenville contract shortly before he got married. As his wife helped him with signatures by setting out an example for him to copy, it's possible that he was able to sign something by 1911.

However, I read that when he and his teammates went to a restaurant, he couldn't read the menu, so he would wait for everyone else to order and then choose the same as one of them. If he was that embarrassed to let his teammates know that he was illiterate, why would he let a photographer know that he needed his wife's help to sign his name? It's possible that he signed it outside of the photographer's presence, and then his wife or the photographer added the place and date (I don't believe for one second that he could have written that). But it seems that he signed his name only when he felt it was legally necessary. Why was this photo important enough for him to sign? Maybe because in his rookie year of 1911 he didn't want to disappoint his teammates and be the only one not to sign his picture. Of course all this is speculation and proves nothing other than it COULD be legit. An analysis proving that the ink has been there since 1911 would be a big positive. But with what we know now, I would hesitate to join either of the 100% sure sides.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 10-11-2021, 06:45 PM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
J@mes Nonk.es
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,659
Default

I apologize if I missed this but does anyone know the expected return time on a $300 express submission?
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 10-11-2021, 06:50 PM
BobC BobC is offline
Bob C.
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter08 View Post
I apologize if I missed this but does anyone know the expected return time on a $300 express submission?
Ummm........wrong thread maybe?
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 10-11-2021, 07:04 PM
Fred's Avatar
Fred Fred is offline
Fred
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,002
Default

"Say it aint so.... Joe"
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something
cool you're looking to find a new home for.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 10-11-2021, 09:09 PM
Fred's Avatar
Fred Fred is offline
Fred
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,002
Default

What seems weird to me is that the signature of Joe Jackson looks very labored, but the "Alexandria Mar 1911" looks pretty clean.

If someone else wrote the other information then they must have used the same pen because it sure looks like the same ink that was used for the signature.

I'm no expert but I can see people calling BS on this. What kind of "provenance" is supposed to be associated with this?
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something
cool you're looking to find a new home for.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 10-11-2021, 09:22 PM
prewarsports prewarsports is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,547
Default

I believe the photographer may have added the "Alexandira 1911" afterwards. No comment on the authenticity of the autograph, but that is something I believe several collectors think when I have discussed this item with them.

I would imagine the ink would be from 1911 as it was adhered in the scrapbook with the entire team, all signed in ink. The photographer would have had no need to forge the autograph of a player he had free access to. The provenance and circumstantial evidence is very strong for the ink being period as it also looks like it should in the scans. Whether or not Joe signed it or someone else, no clue. Something I have been thinking about though is that if Jackson could not sign and someone was going to sign for him, why would they make it laboured and slow to make it look like his autograph?

I have no idea, just a couple of thoughts that have gone through my mind. I bought the "remnants of the album" with the other Cleveland players still in the photo album so maybe the blank sheet the Jackson was originally stuck to is still in there, when I get it from Christie's I will let you guys know.

Rhys
__________________
Be sure to check out my site www.RMYAuctions.com
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 10-11-2021, 09:54 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
Travis
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter08 View Post
I apologize if I missed this but does anyone know the expected return time on a $300 express submission?
It's about a one week turnaround right now. But as stated above, I believe you're posting in the wrong thread.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:52 AM
bgar3 bgar3 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: new jersey
Posts: 1,114
Default 1912 composite

This is from memory of something I owned about 30 years ago, but I had a composite of the team with head shots of all the players, including Jackson. I believe they were all in suits. I also believe there were signatures of each player under their image, in the composite, not live ink. Jackson’s had the distinctive E if I remember correctly. This is not meant to be anything more than an additional piece of information, that may be interesting to compare. Of course, I have no idea who may have signed the original for Jackson or any of the players, but I think they were meant to be autographs. Someone here may own it now or know how to find the image .
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 10-12-2021, 07:27 AM
BillyCoxDodgers3B BillyCoxDodgers3B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,669
Default

I believe I'm familiar with that piece. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the "signature" was not in Jackson's hand. Again without seeing it, I'm just assuming we're referencing the same item.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 10-12-2021, 07:29 AM
SteveS SteveS is offline
St.eve Sus.sman
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Currently Colorado, formerly Los Angeles
Posts: 287
Default

bgar3, is this it? It is from 1912, they are in suits, and it has facsimile autographs. It was really tough to locate, but ended up finding it listed on eBay (so you can buy it back if you want). Great memory you have, as it does have the distinctive "E." Not sure how well the rest of it matches up, but when his wife signed for him she didn't use that "E." So being from 1912, it does add to the mystery: https://www.ebay.com/itm/23393154896...ntid=425243949
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot_20211012-071759~01.jpg (7.3 KB, 278 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot_20211012-071811~01.jpg (13.2 KB, 283 views)
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 10-12-2021, 08:07 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by prewarsports View Post
I believe the photographer may have added the "Alexandira 1911" afterwards. No comment on the authenticity of the autograph, but that is something I believe several collectors think when I have discussed this item with them.

I would imagine the ink would be from 1911 as it was adhered in the scrapbook with the entire team, all signed in ink. The photographer would have had no need to forge the autograph of a player he had free access to. The provenance and circumstantial evidence is very strong for the ink being period as it also looks like it should in the scans. Whether or not Joe signed it or someone else, no clue. Something I have been thinking about though is that if Jackson could not sign and someone was going to sign for him, why would they make it laboured and slow to make it look like his autograph?

I have no idea, just a couple of thoughts that have gone through my mind. I bought the "remnants of the album" with the other Cleveland players still in the photo album so maybe the blank sheet the Jackson was originally stuck to is still in there, when I get it from Christie's I will let you guys know.

Rhys

What do you think about giving an opinion at all? Whether or authentic or not, I don't think it's possible for an authentication service to have someone on staff who specializes in the writing of illiterate people. He's not writing in block lettering but him being illiterate opens the possibilities for signatures that aren't his to be attributed to him. Labored writing is usually a tell for a lot of signatures but if every signature is labored, you're relying more and more on the story behind it and that's not how you're supposed to set about authenticating something.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 10-12-2021, 08:31 AM
Tao_Moko's Avatar
Tao_Moko Tao_Moko is offline
Er1c Sh@rp.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Floyd, VA
Posts: 1,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
What do you think about giving an opinion at all? Whether or authentic or not, I don't think it's possible for an authentication service to have someone on staff who specializes in the writing of illiterate people. He's not writing in block lettering but him being illiterate opens the possibilities for signatures that aren't his to be attributed to him. Labored writing is usually a tell for a lot of signatures but if every signature is labored, you're relying more and more on the story behind it and that's not how you're supposed to set about authenticating something.
+1
Well put. The bottom line is this should not have been slabbed or marketed as anything other than questionable. Provide the provenance and let the buyer make the decision. Responsibility and accountability are not at play here. I don't care if someone wants to drop this kind of money on an unknown, but it does speak to the continued failure of 3rd party authentication.
__________________
"Chicago Cubs fans are 90% scar tissue". -GFW
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 10-12-2021, 09:59 AM
bgar3 bgar3 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: new jersey
Posts: 1,114
Default

Steve, yes that is the image, however, mine was not the newspaper supplement, but a separate composite on cabinet card stock about 8x10 if I recall. Obviously, I would like to still have it.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 10-12-2021, 10:09 AM
Klrdds Klrdds is offline
K&v!/\/ R@g$d@/3
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: GA
Posts: 1,090
Default

If I'm correct I believe that the original print of this composite photograph first came to market from the Barry Halper auction , and there was some controversy as to Joe's signature on the composite at that time. Since then reprints of this have shown up at various times. Additionally if memory serves me correctly the composite in the Halper auction did not have the newspaper header on it and it was framed.
It was rumored at that time that the signature on the composite wasn't his and was accepted as not his but interestingly it supposedly became the template for his signature used later in life as evidenced by the Leland's purchase of the Darvick Joe Jackson in the early 1990's ( the only one ever sold at that time ) which was used as the standard for years and to which most Joe Jackson signatures match to . So this facsimile signature on the composite whoever it was signing Joe's name was used by Joe , some agree as his template. But all this is supposition for many years ... so we will never know. One more mystery to the Joe Jackson saga.

Last edited by Klrdds; 10-12-2021 at 10:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 10-12-2021, 10:21 AM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,148
Default

I believe it is official...

We had 122 posts when it was discovered, and now 125 debating the authenticity!

Stay classy!
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 10-12-2021, 11:39 AM
Lorewalker's Avatar
Lorewalker Lorewalker is offline
Chase
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 1,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgar3 View Post
Steve, yes that is the image, however, mine was not the newspaper supplement, but a separate composite on cabinet card stock about 8x10 if I recall. Obviously, I would like to still have it.
You must be referring to one of these? If so do you recall where and when you bought it? Have heard there are many out there but I have never seen one come to auction.


composite.jpg
__________________
( h @ $ e A n + l e y
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 10-12-2021, 11:55 AM
bgar3 bgar3 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: new jersey
Posts: 1,114
Default

Chase, yes, that looks like it. It definitely was not newsprint. I got it about 1987 from a local collector who had picked up a number of items from Jimmy McAleer’s estate. I traded it in the 1990’s if I recall. I haven’t seen another since.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 10-12-2021, 12:16 PM
BillyCoxDodgers3B BillyCoxDodgers3B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,669
Default

For the record, that is exactly the piece I thought you meant.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 10-12-2021, 01:37 PM
Klrdds Klrdds is offline
K&v!/\/ R@g$d@/3
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: GA
Posts: 1,090
Default

That is the same item I was referencing in my above post.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 10-12-2021, 01:46 PM
mrreality68's Avatar
mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
I believe it is official...

We had 122 posts when it was discovered, and now 125 debating the authenticity!

Stay classy!
That shows the value going up.

As the card market continues to spike to do does our debates
__________________
Thanks all

Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

Looking for
1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards
1933 Uncle Jacks Candy Babe Ruth Card
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
1915 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson
1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson
Shoeless Joe Jackson Autograph
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 10-12-2021, 02:07 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is online now
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrreality68 View Post
That shows the value going up.

As the card market continues to spike to do does our debates
Our cards are going up faster than inflation! Middle America can barely afford to collect any longer.
.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 10-12-2021, 03:05 PM
ThomasL ThomasL is offline
Tho.mas L Sau.nders
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Default

Earliest I have found are a couple of 1915 signatures (one sold by REA posted here).

People mentioning Jackson's "labored" signature and that is a good definition of it, and while the signature in the photo in question appears labored...it is not labored to the extent Jackson's signature was..."very labored" is a better way to describe Jackon's signature.

The best example is that the Js are very fluid and smoothly formed in the photo compared to Jackson's very labored Js on most all other documents.

I dont think there is another real Jackson signature where he ends the "o" and tails with an up stroke...most are down strokes and some are a straight stroke...another red flag for me is the up and over tails on the "J"s that's very distinctive and I dont see another signature that looks like that.

And again cant stress enough the biggest red flag is how large that writing on the photo is...someone said you cant be 100% either way and that is correct...but I think it is not unreasonable to be firm on one side and Im firm fake.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1915-joe-jackson-signed-bond.jpg (43.9 KB, 209 views)

Last edited by ThomasL; 10-12-2021 at 03:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 10-12-2021, 03:13 PM
ThomasL ThomasL is offline
Tho.mas L Sau.nders
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Default

I would like to ask for those who think it is real....IYO...what letters match known document signatures?

Make a case it's real
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 10-12-2021, 03:32 PM
Jobu's Avatar
Jobu Jobu is offline
Bry@n
member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 3,721
Default

I think people are taking the easy way out by piling on the signature being no good. I have a whole bunch of thoughts on this:

ONE

When these were discovered, people also took the easy way out, saying that the Matty and Jackson didn't look good but that the rest of the "commons" were probably fine. I get the logic of thinking a forger would hide the big money fakes by putting them with the commons, but the flip side of that is that there is no reason to think someone collecting full team signatures would get only the commons but skip the stars. In fact, it should be the opposite, so this proves/suggests nothing.

TWO

The Giants photos, with their autographs on them, were used as a newspaper premium ahead of the 1911 World Series:

1911 Frank Smith NY Giants.jpg

So, unless Frank Smith found someone to forge Matty's signature in the early fall of 1911 while having everyone else on his team sign their names, Matty should be ok as should all of the other Giants.

THREE

I am with Snowman on not putting too much stock in the Joe Jackson Museum guy's opinion. Unless he has some training in handwriting analysis that we don't know about, or specializes in the penmanship of illiterate people, I don't know why his opinion counts for any more than anyone else who can look at the handful of examples of Jackson's signature that can be found online. He may know as much about Jackson's life as anyone alive, but that does not make him a handwriting expert. (Just like I am not a handwriting expert.)

FOUR

I also don't think that the size of the signature compared to his others (https://www.psacard.com/autographfac...oe-jackson/21/) means much. All of the other examples are on small lines in documents - if handed a large photo with no signature guidelines on it and asked/convinced to sign it, of course he wouldn't write a tiny autograph down in the corner, he would do his best to make it fit with the size of the photo.

FIVE

Smith, the photographer, was the local Cleveland photographer. He knew the players - he also got two team's worth of these types of signed photos. The Giants make sense as a World Series assignment, the Indians make sense because they were his hometown team. The Indians had Spring Training in Alexandria LA only in 1910-1911, so maybe Smith took the Indians series in 1911, liked it, and later that season suggested that he could do the same thing for a Giants World Series preview.

SIX

This is not a lone signed Jackson photo coming out of nowhere, it was in a team album all of the same types of photos by a known local photographer who knew the players and did another similar signed team series in the same year that was published at the time the photos were taken/autographs obtained. The fact that Jackson was unskilled at signing his name combined with the extra large size of the signature to match the size of the photo, the lack of a signature line on the photo to guide him all, and the smooth/glossy surface of the photo, which is different to write on than the plain paper that all his other signatures are on (especially with a fountain pen), suggest that this signature might not end up being a perfect match for all of his other signatures. (And because of his difficulty signing, his other signatures are also far from perfect matches for each other.)

As I mentioned, l am not a handwriting expert. But I also don't think that any of the reasons being put forward to doubt this signature hold water.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 10-12-2021, 03:53 PM
tazdmb tazdmb is offline
Fra.nk Rein.stein
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Outside Detroit
Posts: 1,129
Default

Here are 3 "Alleged" 1912 Autographs of Joe Jackson. All are from the 1912 scrapbook donated to the Hall of Fame. The autographs are for sure from 1912....by who, can't say for sure.

While all signed by the same person, a very reputable authenticator believed they were not signed by Jackson. If people know the history of this book, 2 brothers from Pittsburgh would bring the scrapbook book to home games and get the signatures IP, sometimes handing it to a player in the dugout and that player would get the rest of the team. Rumor is Ty Cobb was so impressed, he stopped a game so the Tigers could sign... Anyways, make your own judgements.

Joe_Jackson

Jackson_2

Jackson_1
__________________
My Photobucket:
http://s184.photobucket.com/user/taz...?sort=3&page=1

Last edited by tazdmb; 10-12-2021 at 03:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 10-12-2021, 04:17 PM
ThomasL ThomasL is offline
Tho.mas L Sau.nders
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Default

tazdmb - those look like his wifes ghost signatures (attached wife signed 1919 contract)

Jobo - good points, one counter is people put facsimile writing and signatures on things all the time even in that time period, not an uncommon practice to do that. I would add that I think someone who has spent 20-30 years looking at Joe Jackson autographs would have a better idea of what his signature looks like than an employee at PSA (a company who has authenticated bad autographs in the past so their opinion is not above reproach either)

It is for sure possible one time in his life Jackson was handed a photo and signed it and happened to sign it completely different than he would sign everything else the rest of his life...but I doubt it

I think it is easy to yell fake if you are just doing it to be provocative...but trying to lay out reasons why someone thinks that is not the easy way and just opens them up to be questioned and possibly ridiculed (as has happened in this case)...the real easy way out and take here is someone blindly accepting it I would argue.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1919 Jackson contract-wife sig.jpg (11.6 KB, 198 views)

Last edited by ThomasL; 10-12-2021 at 04:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 10-12-2021, 04:28 PM
Klrdds Klrdds is offline
K&v!/\/ R@g$d@/3
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: GA
Posts: 1,090
Default

Ok I'll bring this up since I've not seen this brought up .
If the signature on the just auctioned photo is authentic , and the signature on the composite is authentic , and the 3 examples that Frank posted are authentic then can someone please explain what happened to Joe in a span of 5 -6 years to have his signature change so dramatically and actually become truly deteriorated compared to those earlier examples on the photo , the composite , and the books Frank posted ?
There is no mention of Joe developing or having any debilitating sickness or injury or physical limitations or alcohol abuse or mental issues which could cause drastic and rapid signature decline. Plus looking at his on field performance I think it's clear he had no problems.
So then what would be the cause of this drastic signature change ? AND yes it is a drastic change in his signature . His signature after roughly 1915 /1916 never changed for over 30 + years.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 10-12-2021, 05:10 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

It would truly facilitate this discussion if someone is able to post large images of each known and alleged Jackson signature from 1911 on and in chron order so they're all in one place for visual reference. It's confusing to a simpleton like me when people discuss this signature or that one but one has to scroll around to find the image or images being discussed. Thomas did post a few images but at least on my screen they are small.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-12-2021 at 05:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 10-12-2021, 05:29 PM
mr2686 mr2686 is offline
Mike Rich@rds0n
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ca
Posts: 3,169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klrdds View Post
Ok I'll bring this up since I've not seen this brought up .
If the signature on the just auctioned photo is authentic , and the signature on the composite is authentic , and the 3 examples that Frank posted are authentic then can someone please explain what happened to Joe in a span of 5 -6 years to have his signature change so dramatically and actually become truly deteriorated compared to those earlier examples on the photo , the composite , and the books Frank posted ?
There is no mention of Joe developing or having any debilitating sickness or injury or physical limitations or alcohol abuse or mental issues which could cause drastic and rapid signature decline. Plus looking at his on field performance I think it's clear he had no problems.
So then what would be the cause of this drastic signature change ? AND yes it is a drastic change in his signature . His signature after roughly 1915 /1916 never changed for over 30 + years.
I was thinking the same thing.
__________________
Pride of the Yankees movie project - ongoing
Catfish Hunter Regular Season Win Tickets - 25/224 Post Season 0/9
1919 Black Sox - I'm calling it complete...maybe!
1955 Dodger Autographs...40/43
1934 Gas House Gang Autographs...Complete
1969 Cubs Autographs...Black Cat ticket plus 30/50
1960 Pirates autographs...Complete
1961 Yankees autographs...Complete
1971-1975 A's Playoff/WS roster autos...Complete
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 10-12-2021, 05:35 PM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,890
Default

My read of several comments is that the opinions of people who are not handwriting experts are to be taken with a grain of salt. Is there any reason to believe Steve Grad or the people at PSA/DNA have such training?
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 10-12-2021, 05:57 PM
SteveS SteveS is offline
St.eve Sus.sman
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Currently Colorado, formerly Los Angeles
Posts: 287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It would truly facilitate this discussion if someone is able to post large images of each known and alleged Jackson signature from 1911 on and in chron order so they're all in one place for visual reference. It's confusing to a simpleton like me when people discuss this signature or that one but one has to scroll around to find the image or images being discussed. Thomas did post a few images but at least on my screen they are small.
OK, here ya go. These are from PSA's website. I'm sure there are more verified signatures of his, but there are enough here to get an idea. I've isolated just the signatures and put them in chronological order as best I could (1915-1949; one wasn't dated). The last one is the auctioned photo. Here is the link from where I got them:https://www.psacard.com/autographfac...joe-jackson/21
Attached Images
File Type: jpg joe1.jpg (11.5 KB, 166 views)
File Type: jpg joe2.jpg (5.7 KB, 168 views)
File Type: jpg joe3.jpg (10.5 KB, 165 views)
File Type: jpg joe4.jpg (9.2 KB, 166 views)
File Type: jpg joe6.jpg (7.5 KB, 165 views)
File Type: jpg joe7.jpg (12.2 KB, 166 views)
File Type: jpg joe8.jpg (11.2 KB, 167 views)
File Type: jpg joe9.jpg (7.1 KB, 166 views)

Last edited by SteveS; 10-12-2021 at 06:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:06 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
Travis
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobu View Post
I think people are taking the easy way out by piling on the signature being no good. I have a whole bunch of thoughts on this:

ONE

When these were discovered, people also took the easy way out, saying that the Matty and Jackson didn't look good but that the rest of the "commons" were probably fine. I get the logic of thinking a forger would hide the big money fakes by putting them with the commons, but the flip side of that is that there is no reason to think someone collecting full team signatures would get only the commons but skip the stars. In fact, it should be the opposite, so this proves/suggests nothing.

TWO

The Giants photos, with their autographs on them, were used as a newspaper premium ahead of the 1911 World Series:

Attachment 482867

So, unless Frank Smith found someone to forge Matty's signature in the early fall of 1911 while having everyone else on his team sign their names, Matty should be ok as should all of the other Giants.

THREE

I am with Snowman on not putting too much stock in the Joe Jackson Museum guy's opinion. Unless he has some training in handwriting analysis that we don't know about, or specializes in the penmanship of illiterate people, I don't know why his opinion counts for any more than anyone else who can look at the handful of examples of Jackson's signature that can be found online. He may know as much about Jackson's life as anyone alive, but that does not make him a handwriting expert. (Just like I am not a handwriting expert.)

FOUR

I also don't think that the size of the signature compared to his others (https://www.psacard.com/autographfac...oe-jackson/21/) means much. All of the other examples are on small lines in documents - if handed a large photo with no signature guidelines on it and asked/convinced to sign it, of course he wouldn't write a tiny autograph down in the corner, he would do his best to make it fit with the size of the photo.

FIVE

Smith, the photographer, was the local Cleveland photographer. He knew the players - he also got two team's worth of these types of signed photos. The Giants make sense as a World Series assignment, the Indians make sense because they were his hometown team. The Indians had Spring Training in Alexandria LA only in 1910-1911, so maybe Smith took the Indians series in 1911, liked it, and later that season suggested that he could do the same thing for a Giants World Series preview.

SIX

This is not a lone signed Jackson photo coming out of nowhere, it was in a team album all of the same types of photos by a known local photographer who knew the players and did another similar signed team series in the same year that was published at the time the photos were taken/autographs obtained. The fact that Jackson was unskilled at signing his name combined with the extra large size of the signature to match the size of the photo, the lack of a signature line on the photo to guide him all, and the smooth/glossy surface of the photo, which is different to write on than the plain paper that all his other signatures are on (especially with a fountain pen), suggest that this signature might not end up being a perfect match for all of his other signatures. (And because of his difficulty signing, his other signatures are also far from perfect matches for each other.)

As I mentioned, l am not a handwriting expert. But I also don't think that any of the reasons being put forward to doubt this signature hold water.
+1 and well said. The strengths in favor of this being authentic, for me, are with the photographer and the accompanying photos of all the other team members who signed their name, paired with him doing this again with the Giants. As you stated, it would be quite a stretch to assert that the stars signatures are all fakes, but the commons are all legit.

I can't state with absolute certainty that this is 100% authentic, and neither should anyone else. But I find the arguments against it to be not very interesting, and if I were someone with 1.5m to spend on something like this, I would have had no problem bidding on it as I believe it is most likely authentic.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:09 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Awesome thanks. First impression is that the two capital J's in the '11 photo don't look the same as the rest, and the c is more open at the top. And we still have the Alexandria problem.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-12-2021 at 06:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:17 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
Travis
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Awesome thanks. First impression is that the two capital J's in the '11 photo don't look the same as the rest, and the c is more open at the top. And we still have the Alexandria problem.
The Alexandria text is not a problem to me. In my opinion, that was clearly written by someone else.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:28 PM
SteveS SteveS is offline
St.eve Sus.sman
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Currently Colorado, formerly Los Angeles
Posts: 287
Default

I don't think it can be said with absolute certainty either way without knowing for sure that the ink has been on the photo since 1911. If that can be shown, it would be very convincing to me, as I doubt anyone would be signing his name back then so similarly to his actual signature that we'd be debating it 110 years later. That "E" is very distinctive, and even his wife didn't do it that way when she signed for him. But no matter what, I don't believe that he wrote the "Alexandria 1911."
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:35 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
The Alexandria text is not a problem to me. In my opinion, that was clearly written by someone else.
I can see it either way. But certainly some experts see it as the same hand.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:35 PM
Jobu's Avatar
Jobu Jobu is offline
Bry@n
member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 3,721
Default

I don't think there is anyone who is stating that he also wrote Alexandria.
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:36 PM
Lorewalker's Avatar
Lorewalker Lorewalker is offline
Chase
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 1,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
The Alexandria text is not a problem to me. In my opinion, that was clearly written by someone else.
I think the part I have trouble with is that Frank Smith, for reproduction purposes, would enhance the signatures on his photos. His goal was a great and complete end product not that the sigs were 100% original. Fast forward to the 21st century and that innocent effort renders these questionable. If he or someone else wrote on the Jax photo what was to stop him with filling in other gaps?
__________________
( h @ $ e A n + l e y
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 10-12-2021, 06:36 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

All the other signatures have a c that is nearly closed at the top. They're very consistent.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fake Shoeless Joe Sporting News Shoeless Moe Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 23 10-08-2012 09:38 PM
Fake Shoeless Joe - great BS story though Shoeless Moe Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 01-08-2011 12:16 AM
Fake Shoeless Joe Rookie Card? Shoeless Moe Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 14 11-16-2010 10:18 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:38 AM.


ebay GSB