a question, for folks that promise not to Google or research

[FrankWakefield]

A question for folks willing to play along. Without Googling, searching, researching, Baseball Referencing, Wikipedia, or any of that... do any of you know who Wid Matthews, or W. C. Matthews, was? I had no idea at all.


In a few hours I'll post again, and will have some images up, including a card.

Thank you for playing along and not resorting to Google.

[JollyElm]

659. Wikipediot
Anyone who correctly answers an impossibly tough question in a trivia thread, and you know damn well he just looked it up on-line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not a clue.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

659. Wikipediot
Anyone who correctly answers an impossibly tough question in a trivia thread, and you know damn well he just looked it up on-line.

I don't have to look it up, I know very well who Wid Matthews was, since he's in my biography of Walter Johnson. During practically the entire season of 1924, the Senators searched for a reliable third outfielder to go with HOFs Goose Goslin and Sam Rice. Mathews filled that role for a while before burning out or proving his unsuitability for the major leagues. He later became an executive with, if memory serves correctly, the Cubs. Washington finally found the outfielder they were looking for in the person of Earl McNeely, paying the then-amazing sum of $75,000 to Sacramento of the PCL for the highly skilled but untested McNeely, who in the closing months of a dramatic pennant race gave them a couple months of .300+ hitting to go with his speed and agility in centerfield. He also gave them the winning hit in the seventh game of the World Series against the Giants.

[BioCRN]

As a Cubs fan, "Eddie Miksis will fix us" (attributed to Branch Rickey, too) is kinda legendary for the dark period he was GM over the Dodgers and he continued the bungling as GM of the Cubs.

Gene Baker and Ernie Banks were a kinda bright spot over his tenure, though.

[ejharrington]

19th century pitcher?

[brianp-beme]

I googled and still came up with the wrong result.

Brian

[Sean]

Didn't he play outfield for the Washington Senators in the World Series years, 1924+ 1925?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I don't have to look it up, I know very well who Wid Matthews was, since he's in my biography of Walter Johnson. During practically the entire season of 1924, the Senators searched for a reliable third outfielder to go with HOFs Goose Goslin and Sam Rice. Mathews filled that role for a while before burning out or proving his unsuitability for the major leagues. He later became an executive with, if memory serves correctly, the Cubs. Washington finally found the outfielder they were looking for in the person of Earl McNeely, paying the then-amazing sum of $75,000 to Sacramento of the PCL for the highly skilled but untested McNeely, who in the closing months of a dramatic pennant race gave them a couple months of .300+ hitting to go with his speed and agility in centerfield. He also gave them the winning hit in the seventh game of the World Series against the Giants.

Good knowledge Hank, thanks for posting.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I don't have to look it up, I know very well who Wid Matthews was, since he's in my biography of Walter Johnson. During practically the entire season of 1924, the Senators searched for a reliable third outfielder to go with HOFs Goose Goslin and Sam Rice. Mathews filled that role for a while before burning out or proving his unsuitability for the major leagues. He later became an executive with, if memory serves correctly, the Cubs. Washington finally found the outfielder they were looking for in the person of Earl McNeely, paying the then-amazing sum of $75,000 to Sacramento of the PCL for the highly skilled but untested McNeely, who in the closing months of a dramatic pennant race gave them a couple months of .300+ hitting to go with his speed and agility in centerfield. He also gave them the winning hit in the seventh game of the World Series against the Giants.

Never would have known. Always good to learn

[Gorditadogg]

Not sure. Was he the guy who traded Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[FrankWakefield]

I'm smiling...

If anyone here would have known anything about Wid, it would have been Mr. Thomas.

And BioCRN has memories seared into his memory, such is the fate of a Cubs fan...



I had no recollection of anything about Wid. I really enjoyed reading Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry Thomas. And we should all feel honored that Henry posts here.

Pictures on the way, as promised.

[FrankWakefield]

I'm gonna try again with hopefully better pictures....

[G1911]

I believe Wid was also one of Branch Rickey’s scouts, and his glowing reports on Jackie Robinson’s performance at Kansas City played a big role in Rickey choosing Jackie specifically to be the barrier breaker.

[FrankWakefield]

As a snot nosed kid, I first collected coins, then added stamp collecting, and eventually added baseball card collecting (kid style, not what we now do). I still look at stamps once in a while, and covers (envelopes). I once got an early US Airmail cover that was also sent as Special Delivery. For stamp collectors, it had a C5 airmail stamp, and a special delivery stamp, and lots of backstamp cancellations showing the cover's progress.

With all that said, I saw this air mail Registered cover on eBay several weeks ago.


https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679794853

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679794922


In the eBay listing, neither W. C. Matthews, nor the Chicago Cubs, was mentioned. But I could see that whoever Matthews was, he was in the front office for the Chicago Cubs. Obviously, I won the cover, just under $10. So now I'm curious about who was W. C. Matthews.




He was the GM for the Cubs, I read... he was the GM that had a big trade to get Ralph Kiner away from the Pirates. And he played baseball in his younger days. Great... Can I find a picture of him? Can I find one of his cards? Yes, and Yes.


https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679794954

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679794976

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679794995

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I believe Wid was also one of Branch Rickey’s scouts, and his glowing reports on Jackie Robinson’s performance at Kansas City played a big role in Rickey choosing Jackie specifically to be the barrier breaker.

SABR has a different take, calling him a bit player in the story.

Being one of Rickey’s most trusted scouts in 1945 made Matthews a bit player in one of the most momentous chapters in baseball history: the signing of Jackie Robinson. By most accounts, Rickey kept nearly everyone, even his scouts, in the dark about his intention to integrate the Dodgers. Rickey announced his involvement in the launching of a new Negro league, apparently as a smoke-screen to allow him to pursue black players for the Dodgers without raising suspicion. So Matthews was probably not aware of just how significant his and other Dodgers scouts’ survey of Negro leagues talent was during that summer of 1945. As for his report on Robinson, then playing shortstop for the Kansas City Monarchs, Matthews reportedly “had his reservations about Robinson’s demeanor on the field. He was too much of a ‘hot dog’ in his mannerisms, the scout believed, but he thought he was superb at protecting the plate with two strikes on him.”

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SABR has a different take, calling him a bit player in the story.

Being one of Rickey’s most trusted scouts in 1945 made Matthews a bit player in one of the most momentous chapters in baseball history: the signing of Jackie Robinson. By most accounts, Rickey kept nearly everyone, even his scouts, in the dark about his intention to integrate the Dodgers. Rickey announced his involvement in the launching of a new Negro league, apparently as a smoke-screen to allow him to pursue black players for the Dodgers without raising suspicion. So Matthews was probably not aware of just how significant his and other Dodgers scouts’ survey of Negro leagues talent was during that summer of 1945. As for his report on Robinson, then playing shortstop for the Kansas City Monarchs, Matthews reportedly “had his reservations about Robinson’s demeanor on the field. He was too much of a ‘hot dog’ in his mannerisms, the scout believed, but he thought he was superb at protecting the plate with two strikes on him.”

Actual source > how I remember something.

[FrankWakefield]

To my short term consternation, I determine that Wid Matthews is on ONE card. Only one... 1924 Exhibit card. I learn this from The Sport Americana Baseball Card Alphabetical Checklist. I'm telling those interested to get the 5th edition, it has a green cover, it's less than an inch thick, it has a 1992 copyright, and best of all, it isn't filled with thousands of 21st century players. I can look up old players much more easily. My guess is that if you get a new edition it's almost multivolume size, and if you have a 1st or 2nd edition you'll encounter a few errors... Anyway, there on page 285 is an entry for:

Matthews W. C. (Wid)
21Exh-102

Grrrr... only ONE card.

I'm encouraged. I have a couple of dozen of those early exhibits. They used to be all together, using that 'they're all from 1921' logic, although I later resorted them into multiple bunches consistent with how Mr. Lemke sorted them, 1921s, 1922s, and 1923-24s. So I'm thinking I may well have one of those.

But I didn't.

I listed in the BST thread, that buyer be ware / caveat emptor pit... and do we regularly think of those old Exhibit cards as W cards??? That's where Mr. Burdick placed them. I could see a few folks looked at my Want To Buy listing, but no one posted nor offered.

So is anyone out there selling one? Yes Sir, there's one on eBay. At what I considered a very high price. Which I paid. It was kind of a Karma thing to balance out the good deal I felt like I got on the Cover.


https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679796108

And I'm happy with that card.


Wid Matthews made it to the major leagues in 1923, playing in 129 games for Mr. Mack's Athletics, he hit .274. He went from Philadelphia to Milwaukee (AA) in the off season. In June of 1924, Milwaukee traded him to the Washington Senators; and two months later they sent him to Sacramento as a player to be named later. The Senators bought him back September 29, 1924, and they had him playing outfield in 1925. Wid hit .302 in 53 games in 1924. In 1925 he appeared in 10 games, had 4 hits (all singles) in 9 at bats for a .444 batting average. He played in the minors into 1931. And he coached and managed, then coached a bit in the majors.

I understand how two teams can make a trade that benefits both teams. But golly, making a trade with Branch Rickey on the other side seems like shooting pool with Minnesota Fats... or playing Michael Jordan in a game to 30, make it take it (unless I got the ball first and slopped one in from 40', I figure I'd lose 30-0, quickly. I guess the Cubs had money and lots of young talent, and they were thinking Kiner still had pop in his bat and could easily hit more home runs in the Friendly Confines.

All in all, Wid was a better outfielder than I ever was. He had a long career in baseball. He was one of our dear pre-war players. And me stumbling across that envelope opened that door of history to me.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I'm smiling...



If anyone here would have known anything about Wid, it would have been Mr. Thomas.



And BioCRN has memories seared into his memory, such is the fate of a Cubs fan...







I had no recollection of anything about Wid. I really enjoyed reading Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry Thomas. And we should all feel honored that Henry posts here.



Pictures on the way, as promised.

I had NO idea. Very cool! Now I know which book I will purchase next.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I googled and still came up with the wrong result.

Brian

Brian your posts often make me lol but this time I finally decided to tell you.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by WillowGrove

Brian your posts often make me lol but this time I finally decided to tell you.

Thanks Peter, but I suggest that no one else mentions this again so my posts don't get too full of themselves.

Brian

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks Peter, but I suggest that no one else mentions this again so my posts don't get too full of themselves.

Brian

It scares me that I easily follow that. .

[RCMcKenzie]

I thought I recognized the name as a hobby pioneer. I guess I was wrong. I agree that Brian and Darren are funny and closing in on Dr Frank.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I'm smiling...If anyone here would have known anything about Wid, it would have been Mr. Thomas. And BioCRN has memories seared into his memory, such is the fate of a Cubs fan...
I had no recollection of anything about Wid. I really enjoyed reading Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry Thomas. And we should all feel honored that Henry posts here. Pictures on the way, as promised.

Thank you kindly, Frank, but it is I who feels honored to be a part of this distinguished collecting community. And as with everything else connected to my beloved 1924 World Champions, the Wid Matthews story, as outlined above, only gets more interesting the more you know about it

[GeoPoto]

Unfortunately, I was tied up and was late to the original question asked by Frank. In order to preserve my standing to show my Matthews card, I will digress to introduce another important 1924 Senator: Wade Lefler:

In 1924 two obscure outfielders played out-sized roles during the Washington Senators run to an American League pennant and World Series championship. One of them was Wid Matthews; the other was Wade Lefler.

As is discussed above, "Spark Plug" Matthews had an important, albeit abbreviated, role in Washington success early in the 1924 season. Lefler, who got a total of only 8 plate appearances, contributed multiple key hits in Washington victories during the furious pennant race with the Yankees. Neither Matthews nor Leffler were on Washington's World Series roster. After the World Series, in what was an unusual gesture at the time, the Washington players voted to give both Matthews and Lefler bonus payments, though reduced to a 1/5 share.

Lefler, a putative lawyer, who would eventually quit baseball to practice law full-time, took offense at what he felt was too small a share:

"I feel that I am entitled to at least one-third of a share. While I naturally am pleased at being on a championship team and that I was able to help some in bringing the pennant to Washington, baseball is a business with me and I don’t think I am being properly paid for value received."

Lefler complained so often and so loudly that Washington first sent him to Memphis where he eventually became part of a trade. It would appear that Lefler was a better, or at least more instinctive, lawyer than he was a baseball player.

Does anybody have a Lefler card? Val?

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1679945575

[ValKehl]

George, the only card I know of that was issued during Wade Lefler's playing days is this 1921 White's Bakery Tip Top Bread card which shows him with the Baltimore Orioles of the International League. AFAIK, this card last surfaced in Heritage's 2015 auction of Leon's first collection (I tried to copy and paste the pic of this card here, but I couldn't): https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515 I don't own this card, but wish I did.