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  #1  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:27 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
David Nova.kovich Jr.
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Default Harper's weekly. Full issues or just the woodcuts?

I've picked up a few of the Harper's Weekly baseball woodcuts, well, actually so far, I've only been picking up the full issues. Now, I've run into something I'm not sure of. I've got an opportunity to pick one of the harder to find ones for a decent price, the only problem is that it's not the full issue. I'm not dead set on full issues only for my collection, but I'm not sure of the values either. Is it the full issues that are really worth it, or is it simply the woodcuts alone with the complete issue just being an added bonus?

I'm thinking about sticking to the full issues, but maybe in certain cases, allowing myself to purchase single woodcuts as filler, until a full issue becomes available to me. Any thoughts? And what approach have some of you other collectors taken with the Harpers woodcuts?
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2011, 10:04 AM
Bill Rayburn Bill Rayburn is offline
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I have been collecting the old woodcuts (Harper's and others) for several years. I follow the thoughts in your last paragraph. I like to frame mine for the man cave. We have a local framer that does a good job with complete magazines especially if the image is on the cover. I make copies of any articles associated with the image and tape to the back of the frame. There is a decision to make when the woodcut is on the inside. I usually cut it out and frame it. I don't think there is much difference in the value.
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  #3  
Old 03-30-2011, 03:19 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
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I agree, the primary value is in the woodcut itself, the entire issue can be more cumbersome than it is worth sometimes and does not add a lot of monetary value IMHO.
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  #4  
Old 03-30-2011, 03:37 PM
Old Hoss Old Hoss is offline
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Just my two cents, but I think the complete issues give interesting context to the images. Having a complete issue certainly adds to the historical value of the piece. Additionally, sometimes there is a brief caption or group of paragraphs about the images that is not directly under them.

I wouldn't recommend cutting out images from complete issues, if only because images that are already cut-out are more common than complete issues and more easily available.


Best,
Charles
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  #5  
Old 03-30-2011, 04:28 PM
bbcard1 bbcard1 is offline
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This is what I did with a couple of the woodcuts I recently picked up. They make nice additions to my collection. I probably would have just put a whole issue in a box. Same question I came up with a few years ago when I had some uncut boxes of Tastycakes or some such...I just asked myself, in what form would I enjoy them more? The answer for me was cut. Now, I could not bring myself to cut a Harpers that had survived that long, but the tasycakes were easy.

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  #6  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:10 PM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Thank you everyone for the insight. I wouldn't dare cut one of these issues, something about that just wouldn't sit right with me. I wouldn't be getting them as display pieces, just purely for their collectible and historical nature. If they display well without destroying the issue, then I will display them.

Again, thanks for everyone's input, I've decided to go with full issues as my ultimate goal, but single woodcuts as temporary solutions in cases where they are highly displayable if the price is right.

Anyways, I did end up buying the October 1859 Hoboken cricket/baseball pages for what I consider a decent price(I may be wrong about that though). It's not the best condition, but it should display well. I'll check it off my list, but will still continue my search for that full issue though. I've been wanting this one for a long time. I'm a little excited.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

Last edited by novakjr; 03-30-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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  #7  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:20 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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I believe that I have the complete Harper's woodcut collection thru 1908. I could be wrong, and would be more that interested in trading info with anybody else out there who has an interest in these issues.

It has been my experience that the full issues are sometimes less expensive to purchase than just the woodcuts themselves.

I attribute this to the fact that anybody selling a woodcut knows what they have, while it is possible to sell full issues without knowing exactly what the contents are.

As for storage and display, I have found that the Itoya profolios that have been discussed on this site work well for both individual pages, and full issues.

Doug
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  #8  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:25 PM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
I believe that I have the complete Harper's woodcut collection thru 1908. I could be wrong, and would be more that interested in trading info with anybody else out there who has an interest in these issues.

It has been my experience that the full issues are sometimes less expensive to purchase than just the woodcuts themselves.

I attribute this to the fact that anybody selling a woodcut knows what they have, while it is possible to sell full issues without knowing exactly what the contents are.

As for storage and display, I have found that the Itoya profolios that have been discussed on this site work well for both individual pages, and full issues.

Doug
I've noticed that if you know what you're looking for, you can get the full issues for dirt cheap on ebay, due to many simply being listed generically by date rather than by content. I picked up the full 1869 issue with the Red Stockings team for less than $15 that way. I still kinda feel like I stole that one for the price.
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:37 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakjr View Post
I've noticed that if you know what you're looking for, you can get the full issues for dirt cheap on ebay, due to many simply being listed generically by date rather than by content. I picked up the full 1869 issue with the Red Stockings team for less than $15 that way. I still kinda feel like I stole that one for the price.
Exactly.

I picked up the Sept 10, 1887 with the amazing double-page "Thrown Out At Second" in a similar fashion for a similar price.

Any time it costs more to frame a piece, than for the piece itself, I feel like I'm doing pretty good. Charlie Sheen would probably call it "winning".

Doug
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  #10  
Old 03-31-2011, 08:01 AM
Woundedduck Woundedduck is offline
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I'm also a big fan of the Harper's Weekly Woodcuts. For collectors on a budget like myself they're great. They offer very old baseball collectibles with great images of top tier HoFers for relatively low prices.

I got started with a few that had the woodcuts cut out, but then started picking up full pages. They look great. I've got several at the framer right now and at least another one that will be getting framed as well. When I get them all back, I'm hoping to take some pictures to show them off .

Right now, I've really been trying to get full pages. I'm not as concerned with having the full issue, but I'd like to have the full page, if possible, even if the rest of the page isn't baseball related.

So far I've picked up:

Oct 15, 1859 - both full pages showing the baseball and the cricket matches
July 3, 1869 - Red Stocking baseball club, only the woodcut (about 1/2 page)
Oct. 17, 1885 - Chicago Baseball club, full page
Oct. 27, 1888 - Comiskey, Latham, full page
Nov. 9, 1889 - Ewing Cover, full page
May3, 1890 - opening of the baeball season, 2 full pages with woodcuts on both sides

I'm not going for a full run, but I'd still like to find June 27, 1874 (boston), Oct. 14, 1882 (Chicago), and Oct. 20 1888 (Keefe, Ewing).

I do have one question for other Harper's Weekly collectors. Some of the pages I've picked up have been colored prior to making it to me. They are done very nicely with watercolor and look great in my opinion. As I understand it, coloring the woodcuts is pretty common, but I wanted to know what others think about it. Would you rather have the original images without any coloring? Does it diminish or add to the value at all? Do you seek them uncolored or colored or does it matter to you? I'll hopefully have some pics to show what mine look like soon to give a better idea.
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  #11  
Old 03-31-2011, 09:37 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Hi Woundedduck, looks like you've got a nice start to the woodcuts. I'm on a budget too, and that one of the main reasons that I'm starting to love the woodcuts. For some reason, it feels like you're getting something of historical importance for next to nothing. I'm still kinda at the start of my collection of these. So far I only have three.

Oct 15, 1859 - both full pages with a missing corner and a few small tears.
May 16, 1868 - George Sands Cover, full issue.
July 3, 1869 - Red Stocking baseball club, full issue.

Now as far as the colored ones, I think I may keep my collection strictly uncolored. But then again, since I'm really wanting to do full issues, I don't think there's alot that have been colored that are still in tact with the rest of the issue.

Sometime down the road it would be nice to get ahold of the Leslie's Creighton. That is one beautiful woodcut..
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2011, 06:36 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woundedduck View Post
For collectors on a budget like myself they're great. They offer very old baseball collectibles with great images of top tier HoFers for relatively low prices.

I do have one question for other Harper's Weekly collectors. Some of the pages I've picked up have been colored prior to making it to me. They are done very nicely with watercolor and look great in my opinion. As I understand it, coloring the woodcuts is pretty common, but I wanted to know what others think about it. Would you rather have the original images without any coloring? Does it diminish or add to the value at all? Do you seek them uncolored or colored or does it matter to you? .
My budget is exactly what aimed me at woodcuts. I am happily amazed at the lack of interest from the collecting community.

All of mine are without color, although I have seen some beautifully colored, I think Ted Z recently posted one.

Here are (most) of mine :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoo...7612023646769/

Doug
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  #13  
Old 04-01-2011, 11:05 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Doug, I've actually been looking at your page for a while at these. I think I originally found the link on one of the archived threads. Honestly, your collection of woodcuts only made me want 'em more. I know I was thinking about only full issues, and I'm extremely low on funds at the moment, but luckily I just picked up another 3 woodcuts for next to nothing. All 3 for under $20. You can't really beat that price. It looks like I may just settle for full pages, rather than issues after reading deeper into the opinions here and in some older threads. I'm really dead set on "full pages" as my bare minimum though. Full issues would just be an added bonus for me, and I may upgrade to strictly full issues at a later date. I really won't know for sure until that time comes though. I guess I'll just play it by ear.

Last edited by novakjr; 04-01-2011 at 11:06 AM.
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  #14  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:12 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakjr View Post
I'm really dead set on "full pages" as my bare minimum though.
I agree, mine are all full pages, at least, I think.

One of these days I need to research woodcuts in other issues, like Leslie's, etc.

Doug
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  #15  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:55 PM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
I agree, mine are all full pages, at least, I think.

One of these days I need to research woodcuts in other issues, like Leslie's, etc.

Doug
Yeah, I'd like a little more info on the others myself. The Leslie's have been very intriguing since the first time I saw the Creighton woodcut, but I don't think I've ever heard of another one mentioned. Info seems to be hard to come by on the net. I believe there's one online store that has a whole bunch of old mags and papers, but I've never really scoured the site yet to research anything..

http://www.rarenewspapers.com/
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:24 PM
Woundedduck Woundedduck is offline
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I've picked up several prints from this site:

http://www.printsoldandrare.com/baseball/

Their customer service has been great. Most have had color added which may bug some people but they look great.
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  #17  
Old 04-01-2011, 11:45 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakjr View Post
Yeah, I'd like a little more info on the others myself. The Leslie's have been very intriguing since the first time I saw the Creighton woodcut, but I don't think I've ever heard of another one mentioned. Info seems to be hard to come by on the net. I believe there's one online store that has a whole bunch of old mags and papers, but I've never really scoured the site yet to research anything..
Here are the Leslie's that I know of :

11/04/1865 - Creighton
06/06/1885 - Illinois - The Chicago Baseball Club
07/10/1886 - Portraits of the Manager & Members NY Baseball Club
06/23/1888 - Baseball in New York - A general view of the Polo Grounds
09/01/1888 - BB Craze - Climax at Polo Grounds
07/27/1889 - The Popular Interest in Base-Ball
08/31/1889 - A Baseball Incident - caught between the bases
09/07/1889 - John Ward (quarter page)
08/29/1891 - The Struggle For The League Championship (cover)
09/16/1897 - Base-Ball At The Polo Grounds, In New York (cover)

There must be many more, I would guess a similar amount as in Harpers (which I count as 78 different thru 1900).

"The Daily Graphic" may be an earlier version of "The Graphic", and both had baseball woodcuts, starting at least as early as 04/18/1874 thru at least 01/24/1891.

Many of those mentioned above are scanned in my "misc stuff" section on my flickr page.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoo...7612032628945/

Doug
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2011, 05:21 AM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
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WOW, Doug, those are some awesome pieces!

Over the weekend, I'll try to add pics of some of mine that have not been mentioned yet.
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  #19  
Old 04-02-2011, 07:51 AM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
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Here are some woodcuts:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Anson_Cap_1873.jpg (57.8 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg Brouthers_Dan_1883.jpg (76.9 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg Chadwick_Henry_1865.jpg (38.5 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg Clarkson_John_1885.jpg (76.5 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg Comiskey_Charles_1885.jpg (77.8 KB, 80 views)
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2011, 07:53 AM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
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A second group:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Connor_Roger_1879-80.jpg (74.6 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg Ewing_Buck_1882.jpg (74.7 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg Grant_Frank_1889.jpg (75.3 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg Hanlon_Ned_1881.jpg (75.7 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg Keefe_Tim_1879-80.jpg (75.6 KB, 80 views)
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  #21  
Old 04-02-2011, 07:54 AM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
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My last group:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg O_Rourke_Jim_1873.jpg (58.2 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg Radbourne_Charles_1882.jpg (74.3 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg Ward_John_1879-80.jpg (73.7 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg Welch_Mickey_1886_jpg.jpg (43.1 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg Wright_George_1868.jpg (74.6 KB, 94 views)
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2011, 08:51 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Very nice Phil. You got some great stuff there. The Creighton looks awesome. I've heard a lot about the NY Clipper woodcuts, they look pretty nice.

How long has Beckett been grading woodcuts? I knew they had started the Spalding/Reach Guide pages, but I didn't know they did the other stuff as well. I may have to check out their website, and send some of my stuff in.
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2011, 10:20 AM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
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Hey, David:

You can use the regular card submission form for Beckett to submit the woodcuts. They would cost the same price as a card for the service level that you choose plus an additional $8.00 oversize holder charge. The largest that will fit in their holder is about 8 3/4" X 11". You will not find any info on their website about grading woodcuts, spalding guide pages, etc. These will all be encapsulated as "Authentic" as they are hand cut from larger periodicals.

If you have any other questions, I can probably help you with them. Andy Broome is the best conatct person to deal with at Beckett as he is their senior vintage grader.

Last edited by bcbgcbrcb; 04-02-2011 at 10:22 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-02-2011, 10:43 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Great. Thanks Phil. I've got a few odds and ends that would look great encapsulated. Plus the encapsulation would give it a little more of a legit feel for my collection, rather than simply "I've got a bunch of old paper," that my wife likes to refer to, when it comes to things that aren't cards, actual photographs, or full publications.
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:01 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Phil has a fantastic collection (based on what I've seen on his Net54 posts), but he and I have contradictory opinions on grading.

And, I'm not sure how I could have forgotteen about The NY Clipper.

Doug
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  #26  
Old 04-02-2011, 06:13 PM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
Phil has a fantastic collection (based on what I've seen on his Net54 posts), but he and I have contradictory opinions on grading.

And, I'm not sure how I could have forgotteen about The NY Clipper.

Doug
I think we may have had the discussion about grading these things in another thread. I may be thinking of someone else though. I still don't care much for the idea of them being graded, but as long as they're doing it, I might as well take advantage of it in regards to my collection.. I do kinda like the way the full guide pages look encapsulated. Just as long as they don't start encapsulating smaller individual pictures that have been cropped out(like the generic graded 1x1 inch newspaper pictures that float around ebay every once in a while), I think I may be ok with it.
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:43 AM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakjr View Post
Just as long as they don't start encapsulating smaller individual pictures that have been cropped out(like the generic graded 1x1 inch newspaper pictures that float around ebay every once in a while), I think I may be ok with it.
Based on various posts on this thread, and others on the board, my understanding is that they will encapsulate any size that will fit in a holder. As long as they get paid their fee.

Doug
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  #28  
Old 04-04-2011, 08:12 AM
novakjr novakjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
Based on various posts on this thread, and others on the board, my understanding is that they will encapsulate any size that will fit in a holder. As long as they get paid their fee.

Doug
Looking around on ebay yesterday, I saw an SGC Authentic "cut from team composite" picture of someone that looked like it may have been from a guide or newspaper. I can't remember who it was though. Something just didn't sit right about that with me at all.

Last edited by novakjr; 04-04-2011 at 08:13 AM.
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